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Over Rated Big time.

If I remember correctly, I think research has shown that you can look good by taking aas and without training, or at least gain significant muscle and lose fat over a short period of time.

I seem to remember a study showing a group of lifters/males given 650mg Test a week for 20 weeks and NOT allowed to train during those 20 weeks.

I think the average gain in LBM was around 17 pounds, and the average fat loss was around 3 pounds
.

Now I'll have to go find the study. But I think I'm remembering it correctly.

It's human nature to want to think otherwise, but the aas contribute way more to our success than we give it credit.

I like to see that study, because alot of guys taking AAS, training and eating right, don't make those gains in that short time.:rolleyes:
 
I gotta say i have enjoyed reading your post, its was different so to speak

i like to use my own ghetto (very ghetto) broscience which states - you keep doing what the fuck you do as i could give a rats fat fuck ass less and i will continue to do what i do, and i will look for you in the rear view mirror!

take note iprimate my broscience was not directed at you in any form or fashion but to pretty much everyone in general no matter what you believe regarding AAS because truly at the end of the day GENETICS will be the determining factor thats why im a HUGE believer in selective breeding!

I seen your pictures and believe you know what you are doing. I don't see alot of those talking smack, their pictures.:rolleyes:
 
I don't think you are attacking anyone but your posts in this thread and those of your supportive bros drip with smarminess and snideness
QUOTE]

You make me LMAO, maybe we are supportive of Alex, because he knows WTF he is doing! With all your knowledge and therories, show us what you look like and then maybe we will believe in what you say.:rolleyes:
 
I don't think you are attacking anyone but your posts in this thread and those of your supportive bros drip with smarminess and snideness
QUOTE]

You make me LMAO, maybe we are supportive of Alex, because he knows WTF he is doing! With all your knowledge and therories, show us what you look like and then maybe we will believe in what you say.:rolleyes:

I concur!
 
I don't think you are attacking anyone but your posts in this thread and those of your supportive bros drip with smarminess and snideness
QUOTE]

You make me LMAO, maybe we are supportive of Alex, because he knows WTF he is doing! With all your knowledge and therories, show us what you look like and then maybe we will believe in what you say.:rolleyes:

Good job guys--thanks to your criticism we'll probably get 4 or 5 more of his rambling BS posts :D ...some folks are better left ignored
 
Good job guys--thanks to your criticism we'll probably get 4 or 5 more of his rambling BS posts :D ...some folks are better left ignored
in a weird twisted way i kinda like his ramblings, has nothing what the fuck so ever to do with bodybuilidng or anything else of substance to us, by i like the way he talks and uses big pretty colorful words. OOOOOOOOOOOO NIIIIIIICCCE! LOL ;)
 
in a weird twisted way i kinda like his ramblings, has nothing what the fuck so ever to do with bodybuilidng or anything else of substance to us, by i like the way he talks and uses big pretty colorful words. OOOOOOOOOOOO NIIIIIIICCCE! LOL ;)

haha-- yes, his loquaciousness does permeate topics exceedingly inimical to bb'ing (i.e.-- I agree ;) )
 
I like to see that study, because alot of guys taking AAS, training and eating right, don't make those gains in that short time.:rolleyes:

I hope this copy/paste turns out ok.


Two studies below show fat loss and muscle growth is dose dependent and doses at least 600mg target certain muscle fiber types and cause an increase in igf-1 levels. This study was 20weeks and the two sides effects at 600mg for 20 weeks were negative HDL and acne ,which both can be controlled.


In this trial 61 men, 18-35years old were randomized into 5 groups receiving weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, 600 mg of Testosterone Enanthate for 20 weeks. They had previous weight-lifting experience and normal T levels. Their nutritional intake was standardized and they did not undertake any strength training during the trial. The only two groups that reported significant muscle building benefits were the 300 and 600 mg groups so any dose lower than 300mg will not be considered in this essay. 12 men participated in the 300 mg group and 13 men in the 600 mg group.
600mg of Testosterone a week for 20 weeks resulted in the following benefits. Increased fat free mass, muscle strength, muscle power, muscle volume, hemoglobin and IGF-1.
The same 600 mg administration resulted in 2 side effects. HDL cholesterol was negatively correlated and 2 men developed acne.
The normal range for total T in men is 241-827 ng/dl according to Labcorp and 260-1000 ng/dl according to Quest Laboratories. The normal range for IGF-1 is 81-225 according to Labcorp. Total T and IGF-1 levels were taken after 16 weeks and resulted in the following;

Total Testosterone
300 mg group-1,345 ng/dl a 691 ng increase from baseline
600 mg group-2,370 ng/dl a 1,737 ng increase from baseline
IGF-1
300 mg group-388 ng/dl a 74 ng increase from baseline
600 mg group-304 ng/dl a 77 ng increase from baseline

Body composition was measured after 20 weeks.

Fat Free Mass by underwater weighing
300 mg group-5.2kg (11.4lbs) increase
600 mg group-7.9kg (17.38lbs) increase
Fat Mass by underwater weighing
300 mg group-.5kg (1.1lbs) decrease
600 mg group-1.1kg (2.42lbs) decrease
Thigh Muscle Volume
300 mg group-84 cubic centimeter increase
600 mg group-126 cubic centimeter increase
Quadriceps Muscle Volume
300 mg group-43 cubic centimeter increase
600 mg group-68 cubic centimeter increase
Leg Press Strength
300 mg group-72.2kg (158.8lbs) increase
600 mg group-76.5kg (168.3lbs) increase
Leg Power
300 mg group-38.6 watt increase
600 mg group-48.1 watt increase
Hemoglobin
300 mg group-6.1 gram per liter increase
600 mg group-14.2 gram per liter increase
Plasma HDL Cholesterol
300 mg group-5.7 mg/dl decrease
600 mg group-8.4 mg/dl decrease
Acne
300 mg group-7 of the 12 men developed acne
600 mg group-2 of the 13 men developed acne

There were no significant changes in PSA or liver enzymes at any dose up to 600mg. However, long-term effects of androgen administration on the prostate, cardiovascular risk, and behavior are unknown. The study demonstrated that there is a dose dependant relationship with testosterone administration. In other words the more testosterone administered the greater the muscle building effects and potential for side effects.


1: 2002 Jul;283(1):E154-64.

Testosterone-induced increase in muscle size in healthy young men is associated with muscle fiber hypertrophy.

Sinha-Hikim I, Artaza J, Woodhouse L, Gonzalez-Cadavid N, Singh AB, Lee MI, Storer TW, Casaburi R, Shen R, Bhasin S.

Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los AnAm J Physiol Endocrinol Metab.geles, 90059, California.

Administration of replacement doses of testosterone to healthy hypogonadal men and supraphysiological doses to eugonadal men increases muscle size. To determine whether testosterone-induced increase in muscle size is due to muscle fiber hypertrophy, 61 healthy men, 18-35 yr of age, received monthly injections of a long-acting gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonist to suppress endogenous testosterone secretion and weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg testosterone enanthate (TE) for 20 wk. Thigh muscle volume was measured by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan, and muscle biopsies were obtained from vastus lateralis muscle in 39 men before and after 20 wk of combined treatment with GnRH agonist and testosterone. Administration of GnRH agonist plus TE resulted in mean nadir testosterone concentrations of 234, 289, 695, 1,344, and 2,435 ng/dl at the 25-, 50-, 125-, 300-, and 600-mg doses, respectively. Graded doses of testosterone administration were associated with testosterone dose and concentration-dependent increase in muscle volume measured by MRI (changes in vastus lateralis volume, -4, +7, +15, +32, and +48 ml at 25-, 50-, 125-, 300-, and 600-mg doses, respectively). Changes in cross-sectional areas of both type I and II fibers were dependent on testosterone dose and significantly correlated with total (r = 0.35, and 0.44, P < 0.0001 for type I and II fibers, respectively) and free (r = 0.34 and 0.35, P < 0.005) testosterone concentrations during treatment. The men receiving 300 and 600 mg of TE weekly experienced significant increases from baseline in areas of type I (baseline vs. 20 wk, 3,176 +/- 186 vs. 4,201 +/- 252 &mgr;m(2), P < 0.05 at 300-mg dose, and 3,347 +/- 253 vs. 4,984 +/- 374 &mgr;m(2), P = 0.006 at 600-mg dose) muscle fibers; the men in the 600-mg group also had significant increments in cross-sectional area of type II (4,060 +/- 401 vs. 5,526 +/- 544 &mgr;m(2), P = 0.03) fibers. The relative proportions of type I and type II fibers did not change significantly after treatment in any group. The myonuclear number per fiber increased significantly in men receiving the 300- and 600-mg doses of TE and was significantly correlated with testosterone concentration and muscle fiber cross-sectional area. In conclusion, the increases in muscle volume in healthy eugonadal men treated with graded doses of testosterone are associated with concentration-dependent increases in cross-sectional areas of both type I and type II muscle fibers and myonuclear number. We conclude that the testosterone induced increase in muscle volume is due to muscle fiber hypertrophy.

1: Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Dec;281(6):E1172-81.

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men.
Bhasin S, Woodhouse L, Casaburi R, Singh AB, Bhasin D, Berman N, Chen X, Yarasheski KE, Magliano L, Dzekov C, Dzekov J, Bross R, Phillips J, Sinha-Hikim I, Shen R, Storer TW.
Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, CA 90059, USA. [email protected]

Testosterone increases muscle mass and strength and regulates other physiological processes, but we do not know whether testosterone effects are dose dependent and whether dose requirements for maintaining various androgen-dependent processes are similar. To determine the effects of graded doses of testosterone on body composition, muscle size, strength, power, sexual and cognitive functions, prostate-specific antigen (PSA), plasma lipids, hemoglobin, and insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) levels, 61 eugonadal men, 18-35 yr, were randomized to one of five groups to receive monthly injections of a long-acting gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonist, to suppress endogenous testosterone secretion, and weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg of testosterone enanthate for 20 wk. Energy and protein intakes were standardized. The administration of the GnRH agonist plus graded doses of testosterone resulted in mean nadir testosterone concentrations of 253, 306, 542, 1,345, and 2,370 ng/dl at the 25-, 50-, 125-, 300-, and 600-mg doses, respectively. Fat-free mass increased dose dependently in men receiving 125, 300, or 600 mg of testosterone weekly (change +3.4, 5.2, and 7.9 kg, respectively). The changes in fat-free mass were highly dependent on testosterone dose (P = 0.0001) and correlated with log testosterone concentrations (r = 0.73, P = 0.0001). Changes in leg press strength, leg power, thigh and quadriceps muscle volumes, hemoglobin, and IGF-I were positively correlated with testosterone concentrations, whereas changes in fat mass and plasma high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol were negatively correlated. Sexual function, visual-spatial cognition and mood, and PSA levels did not change significantly at any dose. We conclude that changes in circulating testosterone concentrations, induced by GnRH agonist and testosterone administration, are associated with testosterone dose- and concentration-dependent changes in fat-free mass, muscle size, strength and power, fat mass, hemoglobin, HDL cholesterol, and IGF-I levels, in conformity with a single linear dose-response relationship. However, different androgen-dependent processes have different testosterone dose-response relationships.
 

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