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Overall training volume can't be all that matters...

I think the big thing is that the steroids greatly increase the rate of recovery after training sessions. So in swimming this will allow them to train harder and more often. I think if you tested swimmers strength lifting weights ,steroid users wouldn't be greatly stronger than non users. Just a guess. The users would have better endurance because they were able to train longer and more often because of increased recovery rate.
I would disagree.

Consider the New England Journal of Medicine paper, "The Effects of Supraphysiological Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and strength in normal men."

They gave 600 mg of to a group of men, aged 19 to 40 who had weight training experience but had not competed in sport in the past 12 months.

4 groups. Testosterone and resistance training. Testosterone alone. Resistance training alone. No resistance training, no testosterone control.

Obviously the testosterone and resistance group showed the most improvement in muscle and strength. However, perhaps surprisingly, the next performing group for increase in fat free mass was testosterone alone. Increase in strength was similar for training without testosterone and testosterone without training.

Anecdotally, I was a drug-free, resistance-trained, moderately high-level swimmer. I only knew one drug-using competitor. He was considerably faster and stronger.
 
Assuming 8-12 reps is the most effective rep range to building size, it is better to train 1 set of it to failure than do 10 sets of it with the last set to failure, because using an 8-12 rep max is 2x as hard as using a 20 rep max, hence we would gain 2x the size with 10x less time spent per session. The possible advantage of using high volume training is we get more some more cardiovascular benefits, and some guys like training longer. Also we would probably target the sarcoplasmic hypertrophy more, which is the type of muscle than makes bodybuilders look way better than pure strength trainers. They could even double their sets to like 20 sets per muscle to accommodate for gaining half the size with 10 times more sets.
 
It is easy to get big, but building muscle quality and maturity takes more than one set to failure, hence why most bodybuilders train with volume.
 
Assuming 8-12 reps is the most effective rep range to building size, it is better to train 1 set of it to failure than do 10 sets of it with the last set to failure, because using an 8-12 rep max is 2x as hard as using a 20 rep max, hence we would gain 2x the size with 10x less time spent per session. The possible advantage of using high volume training is we get more some more cardiovascular benefits, and some guys like training longer. Also we would probably target the sarcoplasmic hypertrophy more, which is the type of muscle than makes bodybuilders look way better than pure strength trainers. They could even double their sets to like 20 sets per muscle to accommodate for gaining half the size with 10 times more sets.

Actually this is inconsistent with the idea of using a 20 rep max, it would probably take even lighter weight, which diminishes even more size gain. This shows that training with volume takes 2 times as long to get the same size as a high intensity guy, but possibly if the trainer is patient, he could look better in the end if he took the volume route.
 
5x5 type training for things like squats, bench, deads, avoid injury. Bicep curls, flues, side delts take to failure. Add a little volume per week. When working out becomes a chore, deload then repeat. Add things like rp etc for parts you lag on or stall
 
Week 1 heavy weights rep range 6-8
Week 2 moderate weights rep range 12-14
week 3 lighter weights rep range 20plus
Then repeat from week 1
I did this for 9 weeks and it made gains.
20plus reps was the hardest lol
 
There is no true reciprocity in weight lifting.

Have I found my sweet spot?

Yes. But like things in life it is a bit amorphic,
it changes. Anything and everything works
to some degree. Just depends what my goals
are.

At my age, just being healthy and free of
injuries make me very happy. I am very
fortunate I can eat anything and everything,
and still be fairly lean . . . but not as much
as I would like, am not willing to change
my lifestyle (which is what it would take) to
get another row of abs.

No more chasing numbers or size. Been there,
done that. And having been there, the rewards
were never in proportion to the effort extended.

Having spent no small amount of time, money
and energy into achieving many goals, oddly
enough, when I achieved them there was always
a certain amount of emptiness when I got ‘there’,
never quite felt like I thought would feel.

I’m rambling again. Sorry.

Don’t overthink all this stuff. Experiment and
find what works for you and be consistent.

Always enjoy your posts. Ive given up the size game at 41. I went at it one last time with higher doses, more food, higher intensity training, and i just can't do it anymore. Ive accepted the fact that I'm just not willing to have sleep apnea, be out of breath and run higher doses just to be bigger yet more miserable. At 230 pounds I was the biggest I'd ever been, but felt like death. Now, I don't adhere to any one particular training method, I do what feels good and doesn't hurt that day, more cardio, more heavy bag work with the martial arts i was so passionate about in my youth, and just stay lean and fit. I still look better than most at 5'8" with abs at 190, and will probably downsize a tad more as time goes on. Now, I think that i enjoy volume training more than anything. Easier on the joints, im not going into the gym trying to beat the log book, getting injured, and all that bullshit like its a job. Now its about enjoying a good pump, getting the muscle stimulated, and just continuing to enjoy a healthier lifestyle. I started following more of a warrior diet style, mostly just eat small amounts of protein foods like an egg, beef jerky, Greek yogurt, tuna packet, minimal calories to kill my appetite, maybe an apple for preworkout carbs with glutamine and some baking soda for sodium,
then have a mostly carnivore type dinner steak and eggs, or maybe nothing at times, and maybe occasionally some shit food, but stay lean and maintain muscle. Protein shakes are shit to me, most ive grown allergic to and see no benefit anyway. Just do what you enjoy, don't obsess too much about this bodybuilding shit, take the supps you need to be healthy if you are taking hormones, and don't stay too heavy, it will kill you. But the workouts vary these days depending on recovery anywhere from 12 to 20ish sets, get a good pump. The elite have the genetics to be freaks, but even Paul Dillet gave it up, and he trained like a lazy ass but had the genetics to be a mass monster. He was another one that said fuck the rules, and he did what he wanted. Either you'll figure out you can get there, or you'll figure out you weren't meant to man. The secret is, either you have the genetics or you don't. Once you add gear, you'll know pretty soon which one you are. The training matters, but the genetic elite will get there with the fucking shake weight and some damn jumping jacks.lol.
 
how did we come to the conclusion that volume actually matters?

it’s all about progressive overload. if you’re not pushing the heaviest weight on your last set everytime you’re in there, you’re minimizing your results.
ronnie didn’t grow his legs squatting 225
 
how did we come to the conclusion that volume actually matters?

it’s all about progressive overload. if you’re not pushing the heaviest weight on your last set everytime you’re in there, you’re minimizing your results.
ronnie didn’t grow his legs squatting 225
I’d rather do more exercises with higher intensity with low rep ranges than do high reps like a bikini competitor
 
Anecdotally there seems to be something to the classic 6-12 rep range emphasizing volume and intensity.

If its not just volume, it certainly isnt just weight lifted or powerlifters would be more muscular than bodybuilders.
I would argue that strong men and PL are more muscular than bodybuilders. The big guys who are pro bb that are mutants on stage are the genetic elite. The biggest guys are the ones who lift the most weights
 
You're only as big as your dose.

I would argue that strong men and PL are more muscular than bodybuilders. The big guys who are pro bb that are mutants on stage are the genetic elite. The biggest guys are the ones who lift the most weights
 
You're only as big as your dose.
I’ve taken grams of shit and looked like trash. I’ve also take minimal amounts and trained my ass off and ate a ton and focused on getting as strong as possible and was leaner and bigger. This is one of those bs things people parrot just to sound either edgy or smart
 
I’ve taken grams of shit and looked like trash. I’ve also take minimal amounts and trained my ass off and ate a ton and focused on getting as strong as possible and was leaner and bigger. This is one of those bs things people parrot just to sound either edgy or smart
I'm a low dose guy myself but you don't really thing that if you "trained your ass off, at a ton, and focused on getting as strong as possible" with a larger dose you wouldn't have gotten bigger?
I'm not talking going from 600 mg to 750 mgs, or 2 grams to 2.2 grams, but using 1 gram and going to 2 grams I'm betting you are going to put on more muscle.
 
I'm a low dose guy myself but you don't really thing that if you "trained your ass off, at a ton, and focused on getting as strong as possible" with a larger dose you wouldn't have gotten bigger?
I'm not talking going from 600 mg to 750 mgs, or 2 grams to 2.2 grams, but using 1 gram and going to 2 grams I'm betting you are going to put on more muscle.
To a certain extent. However when guys say you’re only as big as your dose that’s not what they mean. You’re only as big as your effort(calories, intensity, and lastly drugs). You can still grow without the drugs as long as the others are in effect but if you’re not eating and not pushing in the gym then you can slam a pharmacy in yourself and it won’t make any difference. Also if you take too much you’re body gets toxic and doesn’t grow as well as it would have other wise
 
I'm a low dose guy myself but you don't really thing that if you "trained your ass off, at a ton, and focused on getting as strong as possible" with a larger dose you wouldn't have gotten bigger?
I'm not talking going from 600 mg to 750 mgs, or 2 grams to 2.2 grams, but using 1 gram and going to 2 grams I'm betting you are going to put on more muscle.
Also if that were true most of us would just keep upping the dose and doing grams upon grams of stuff and walk around as 300lb monsters
 
All things being equal I would think volume matters a lot. As long as the load is going up.
1 high intensity rep per week
1 high intercity set per week
8 moderate intensity sets of 10 5x a week
The last will get better results.
 
It is easy to be a super heavy weight and low body fat when you are bulking up the deep areas of the back, stomach, and thighs with full body lifts. You'll be super heavy. The main population that acheives this just doesn't do a lot of work to build up the small muscle like pecs, delts, etc. that make them visually appear even bigger.

If someone just wants to look strong they just need pecs, delts and arms and most people would say they are strong and look strong. But they won't be very heavy at a low bodyfat.

If someone wants to tip the scale to record breaking standard and not just look huge (overall) but be huge, then it takes the compound lifts approach as well.

The important concept to note for this thread is how much volume do we need when we know the best training is really taxing.
 
It is easy to be a super heavy weight and low body fat when you are bulking up the deep areas of the back, stomach, and thighs with full body lifts. You'll be super heavy. The main population that acheives this just doesn't do a lot of work to build up the small muscle like pecs, delts, etc. that make them visually appear even bigger.

If someone just wants to look strong they just need pecs, delts and arms and most people would say they are strong and look strong. But they won't be very heavy at a low bodyfat.

If someone wants to tip the scale to record breaking standard and not just look huge (overall) but be huge, then it takes the compound lifts approach as well.

The important concept to note for this thread is how much volume do we need when we know the best training is really taxing.
what?
 

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