Overhead pressing irrelevant?

[SL1CED]

First off, yes I used the search function and got a lot of good stuff, I just wanted to ask more specific questions. I see Phil Hernon doesn't like it and a lot his clients saying more improvement in shoulders with working from him.

My trainer, not alex, Alex is my dietian and cardio guy, says they are irrelevant. I have someone at the gym that works with me one on one.

All these guys say are bench press, dips, overhead press, chins, rows, squats, and deads on most forums. You'll grow. He says overhead presses aer just working an area you've already stressed far, far too much and the development from that exercise provides are actually counterproductive.

He has me doing a lot of wide grip upright rows and side lateral raises. What's your take on this?

Can yuo get big shoulders WITHOUT presses. And just sticking to Side raises in all forms; seated side, incline seated, standing side, leaning over side. And how do you progress in heavier weight for an isolation movement like that compared to benching or rowing which is easier to up the weight?

 

[Ashop]

You can build shoulders without them but I think they work the shoulders hard and they work real well for me.

 

[geofalcon]

what they say does make sense....but for me personally my best shoulder growth comes from dumbell presses(not barbell) I can't get my shoulders to grow without them I've tried...thats just me

 

[qbkilla]

hey bro, who is your trainer? is he a big guy, compete? just wondering because alot if trainers you find in any gym are not up to par IMO.

also how are you performing your laterals?

presses never did anything for my shoulders either

 

[animal eater]

Deltoids are worked during several chest and back exercises. Shoulder presses can be very valuable for athletes in particular sports. The big stipulation is whether the individual's structure can handle the movement. Some experience impingement while some do not. Those that do not experience joint pain can find pressing movements very valuable in building strength and size. Remember that the greater the overload, the greater the recruitment. One can definitely press more weight then they would use on lateral raises. That said, I have seen many lifters injure themselves as well. If you press, make sure your structure can handle it and work in a range that is suitable to you. If not, laterals can be helpful.

 

[palumbus1217]

last week was a bullshit week in the gym was messin around and tried em .... i couldnt even get to a heavy weight without feeling like an 80 yr old woman with osteoporosis...i thought phil was bullshittin..im a believer now

 

[strongrhino]

I switch off between military dumbells and next shoulder day I use smith. For me its a staple shoulder exercise and i will usually superset em with sides or fronts. Bang out 4 supersets fast and heavy.

 

[robot]

Many would say the bench press is irrelevant

 

[The Dude]

Some people with excellent recovery abilities may choose to incorporate shoulder presses. I do DB presses once a month at most. My shoulders are very large and developed, but I'm pretty developed. I've seen drastic improvements since focusing on laterals sometimes up to 80lb dumbells and wide upright rows up to 225lbs. Once you reach a high level of development and strength I don't think shoulder pressing is much needed and may be detrimental.

 

[mountaindog1]

I would have to agree with Phil. I had very stubborn shoulders for years, and I did TONS of heavy presses to try and get them to grow with no success. Once I focused more on lateral type movements, voila, they started growing. I actually like Incline Barbell presses for shoulders too as strange as that may sound. Whenever I stop doing incline barbells, my shoulders shrink a bit. Between that and alot of laterals...VERY HIGH reps on rear laterals...that is what helped me for what it's worth.

JM

 

[totalrecomp]

I would have to agree with Phil. I had very stubborn shoulders for years, and I did TONS of heavy presses to try and get them to grow with no success. Once I focused more on lateral type movements, voila, they started growing. I actually like Incline Barbell presses for shoulders too as strange as that may sound. Whenever I stop doing incline barbells, my shoulders shrink a bit. Between that and alot of laterals...VERY HIGH reps on rear laterals...that is what helped me for what it's worth.

JM

I had ok shoulders and stopped doing pressed due to some back issues and only do laterals, I have been getting compliments on my shoulders ever since and they look much better.

 

[LATS]

have not done a shoulder press in 10 years or more.. shoulders kill me the next day if i do.. not worth it..i do wide grip upright rows, db sides laterals and rear delt laterals of various sorts..

 

[tri-terror]

Many would say the bench press is irrelevant

It is. Flat bench anyway.
I've been doing laterals and wide grip upright rows and my shoulders haven't suffered at all. And I could military press 225 for good reps. In fact I would definately say my shoulders have improved with the laterals.
I do love doing some military presses though, it was one of my goals this year to get to 225 on it and it felt good, but it does hurt a bit.
I feel that I get pretty good stim from doing decline bench and dips, and my rear delts get hit doing rows and deads.

 

[hellraiser27]

So then what would be a good shoulder workout?

3x 10 Front raises=front delt
3x 10 lateral raises-middle delt
3x 10 bent over lateral raises - rear delt

People say upright rows, but Im still undecided about that exercise

 

[maldorf]

So then what would be a good shoulder workout?

3x 10 Front raises=front delt
3x 10 lateral raises-middle delt
3x 10 bent over lateral raises - rear delt

People say upright rows, but Im still undecided about that exercise

For me, once I got with Phil, I was just doing the lateral raises for my delts and they grew some. The main thing that happend for me after stopping all of the delt exercises was a stronger bench and much much less pain in my shoulders.

If I were to start pressing again, I would just do militart presses (to the front) and only come down with the bar to ear level. I would also only press the bar to just short of locking out to keep constant tension on the delts. I think the main cause of pain in the shoulders is from doing shoulders presses to the rear and doing them too full range comming down too far.

 

[kingpeon]

Bench presses for pecs are lame. Wide grip neck presses on the other hand are one of the best.

I'd say overhead press is redundant if you have plenty of press work for chest in your routine, but I still do them just because they're fun, don't cause me any problems and I continue to get results from them.

Wide grip upright rows are great too, but they tend to pinch the nerves in my wrists so I can't go heavy with them. :banghead:

 

[Muler]

I have all but cut shoulder presses of any variety in favor of the lateral raises, rear delt work and wide grip upright rows. And since it was brought up in this thread I have ditched the flat bench as well, with the exception of the occasional flat dumbbell press. I have noticed dramatic improvement in strength, and size and definition in my shoulders, AND maybe more importantly no more aggravating shoulder pain. I say try it out and see what you think. As long as you are getting all the pressing angles in your chest workout (i.e. incline, dips) i feel shoulder press is redundant. Now I will admit they are fun, so if you are feeling frisky do them once and a while, just make sure you have had plenty of recovery time between them and your chest workout.

Also to the bro who said his wrists give him problems during upright rows, try using straps and let them serve as the hooks to take pressure off wrists, and use an ez curl bar to help with the angle. I had the same problem, but I love the exercise so I have found that the ez curl/strap combo helps me with the wrist issue.

 

[tenny]

very often

i do nothing but lateral movement shoulder workouts
and very high rep and volume

 

[Little Bear]

Pressing helped me a ton when I was doing it all the time, but it really depends from person to person. Everyone is different and everyone will grow differently. I mean look at how many responses we've had thus far just in this thread.

I know a lot of guys here don't use a great deal of explosive movements (don't flame, just listen please ), but the thing that recently got my traps/delts to grow the best was power upright rows. Now when I say this I don't mean that your feet will come off the floor. I mean an explosive, wide grip upright row to the bottom of the chest. Somewhat like a hang clean, but with not getting under the bar and feet staying on the floor. Take it for what you will.

With that being said, any upright row I do is wide grip and to the bottom of the chest solely for the purpose of preventing injury with any sort of nerve impingement or tendon issues.

 

[300kgdeadlift]

one of my freinds paul strikes (raw bench of 250kg) big bloke ,lean

for his shoulder routine its

heavy wieght x 10
med wieght x10
light weight x10


no rest super setting each - do that x3 sets of side raises using dumbells

then that x3 for front raises thats the main part of his workout....never does presses....but can still do 60kg x28 reps or something like that lol