Overstretching in training - discussion🛑

[luki7788]

I would like to start a small discussion because I am curious about your opinions on this topic.

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I used to train very ballistically you could say something like Jay or Ronnie but when I started having more and more injuries I was forced to change my training style a lot if I wanted to be able to train at all lol
Now I train very similarly to how Nick Walker does it, i.e. a lot of eccentric phase control and strong squeeze muscle, full range of motion etc.

But what do you think about Eric's style of training? He claims that it is very safe because the tempo is very slow and really controlled every rep but for me that range of motion is overstretched and this is more risky than big weights - of course this is just my opinion and I'm starting a topic to find out the opinions of others

 

[M@NU]

it will definitely work for some muscle groups. There are studies about training with partials in the lenghtend position of the muscle etc
(keyword stretch mediated hypertrophy)
but as you said, his style is pretty extreme and you either risk injury or have to decrease mechanical load significantly.

 

[Hansy]

I think if you slowly increase your rom week by week starting with lower weight your body would adapt to things like that. Dawson Windham (a powerlifter) is famous from incorporate „atg” dips, „atg” flyes and other things like that for „health and injury prevention”

 

[pesty4077]

I knew Serge Nubret from the early 90s. He used to do extreme stretching in his movements. Worked for him. My biggest mistake was not stretching enough when I was younger. Not talking about extreme stretching, but I think you should incorporate stretching in all your workouts.

 

[grammo13]

I personally like to try to stay within an active range of tension, which i do try to actively improve by pushing ROM and stretches a little more over time. But if the stretch goes so far that tension comes off my target muscle, I personally don't like how that feels when I go to reverse the movement from that point since a lot of times the muscles taking over can be smaller, weaker muscles.

 

[Vision]

For myself personally I don't do the over stretching with the range of motion, however when I'm training chest, my very last movement will be cables, with that I will do 4 x 15, But on the very very last rep of every set, what I'll do is hold the stretch for 60 seconds.

 

[d4ve]

In general, I agree that kind of ROM is excessive and maybe even dangerous - likely more dangerous than just using a "normal," controlled ROM with heavier weights. But it's so dependent on the person and the exercise.

I don't know Janicki, but he looks like someone with a high-level athletic background, and he is impressively mobile for a guy his size. There aren't that many SHW who can move that well. I certainly can't. He might be gifted with bone structure, joint structure, and connective tissue that are just conducive to this level of stretch under load...he's also demonstrating this concept using mainly machine- and cable-based isolation movements.

When there's only one joint involved, and the movement is stable...sure, go to town manipulating the rest of your body around that one joint so you can get a huge stretch on the target muscle. I do that here and there, especially for muscles that really seem to benefit from passive tension / stretch under load.

For multi-joint movements, though - even machine movements - I'm not as keen...but even then it still depends on your mobility, joint structure, and maybe even how much your muscle mass gets in the way of a super deep position. In that second slide, where Janicki's going super deep on a chest press...to my eye, his shoulders are actually dumping forward a bit in the deepest position, meaning he can't externally rotate any more and he's not getting additional stretch on the pecs. But even if he cut his ROM by 1-2 inches, he'd still be getting deeper and achieving more external rotation than most guys his size could manage. And good for him if he can do that safely - a full, controlled ROM that doesn't compromise stability or put connective tissues at risk is ideal.

Personally, my shoulder mobility doesn't allow that kind of ROM on pressing movements. I'm safer, stronger, and get better results stopping 1-2 inches short of touching my chest on a smith press, for example. But my wide, child-bearing hips and splayed-out femurs make it easy to get deep AF on leg presses and hacks - so I take advantage of it.

TLDR I think full ROM is awesome, but "full" needs to be qualified by stability, control, and joint mechanics. It's stupid AF to just do everything in your power to increase the distance the barbell / dumbbell / cable / machine handle is moving without regard to the mechanics of all the joints involved.

I'm curious what @DOGGCRAPP would have to say here. I know he's a fan of very deep stretching ranges of motion, especially for "funky" exercises prescribed for people whose weak body parts aren't responding to traditional movements. And of course the ultra-deep leg press widowmakers, which I agree are all but guaranteed to work if you actually do them. But I don't see DC trainees obsessing over mile-long ROM on every movement or muscle group.

 

[Tomgrass]

One will be fine another will go straight to snapcity , like with everything - it does work until is does not. Should you be flexible ? Of course but know your limit and do not push if the body tells you so. I like to work in full ROM and I do incorporate stretches but i can tell when i am going to far. For him his ROM maybe different then others.

 

[alfresco]

I knew Serge Nubret from the early 90s. He used to do extreme stretching in his movements. Worked for him. My biggest mistake was not stretching enough when I was younger. Not talking about extreme stretching, but I think you should incorporate stretching in all your workouts.

I remember on the bp he was collar to collar grip. No much weight, short range of motion, ‘pumping’ motion. And when he was resting away from the bench, nobody would dare touch it.

 

[bbxtreme]

Not sure I can add much more than what has already been said above. But I don’t believe one should stretch the eccentric beyond the point of losing mechanical tension AND over engaging soft tissue and tendons.

I believe @DOGGCRAPP has nailed the best of both worlds with his extreme stretch movements as they are weighted stretches, but for one set/rep. You lean into the stretch and hold for the set time and that’s one. I’m paraphrasing here as Dante will likely explain it much better.

The issue I see with this style training is he’s doing weighted stretches for reps which leads to multiple uncontrolled variables once you get past maximum mechanical tension and the muscles full range of motion.

Now he could be a genetic outlier and have an extreme ROM, but for 99% of us I believe this style would wreck our joints and soft tissue.

Just my opinion and experience as always.

 

[FrenchBench22]

Eric has a video where he discusses using extreme ROM for leg exercises.

Perhaps for people that have limited range of motion, they need to spend more time doing mobility work and improving flexibility to achieve full range of motion. But beyond the full natural range of motion, the durability of connective tissue becomes an important factor and the risk:reward may not be in favor of the reward. This is something Fouad and Mike Israetel debated, their example being smith machine chest press.

In this video, starting at 9:12, Eric does a 'sissy' variant of the hack squat to get maximal stretch of the quadriceps.

 

[FrenchBench22]

In the following video, Mike Israetel discusses how doing full range of motion on a compound movement like smith barbell press, where shoulder mobility can be a limiting factor, regularly improving the ROM for the shoulders will eventually lead to improved mobility in the shoulders AND chest, eventually allowing for more loading.

His discussion begins at 23:50

 

[aHarness]

I would like to start a small discussion because I am curious about your opinions on this topic.

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I used to train very ballistically you could say something like Jay or Ronnie but when I started having more and more injuries I was forced to change my training style a lot if I wanted to be able to train at all lol
Now I train very similarly to how Nick Walker does it, i.e. a lot of eccentric phase control and strong squeeze muscle, full range of motion etc.

But what do you think about Eric's style of training? He claims that it is very safe because the tempo is very slow and really controlled every rep but for me that range of motion is overstretched and this is more risky than big weights - of course this is just my opinion and I'm starting a topic to find out the opinions of others

I’m all for good stretch and getting the most out of your movements through full rom, squeezing the target muscle, slower eccentric etc as I believe it allows us to push more constructive volume through generating less systemic fatigue. However I agree, at a certain point if you’re risking injury it’s pointless as I believe we can get all we really need for stimulus through a regular full range of motion.

 

[Mufasa123]

Taking one variable to the extreme that it heavily impacts other key variables (ie range of motion at expense of intensity(%1RM) or load in bar) tends to screw things up. It's about balance.

Load has to be heavy enough (%1RM is proper formal definition of intensity variable), range of motion is important as it translates load into mechanical work (static isos don't get it done), reps are important as you need a sufficient amount of total mechanical work (volume). This is what we see anecdotally and is supported by science without any real exception - when science and practice match that's a clue.

I'm not saying that at certain times and conditions it may not be useful to really push on a single variable at some expense to others but the above is a bit rediculous and on average results will be suboptimal over longer periods of time.

Not very different from what's already been said but though linking variables of stimulative work might be useful.

 

[juiceball44]

I feel like Eric is taking these exercises to the extreme for social media attention. Especially now that he’s going to be selling an app I feel like he’ll really push the more out of the box stuff just to sell his app regardless if it actually works or not.

In the following video, Mike Israetel discusses how doing full range of motion on a compound movement like smith barbell press, where shoulder mobility can be a limiting factor, regularly improving the ROM for the shoulders will eventually lead to improved mobility in the shoulders AND chest, eventually allowing for more loading.

His discussion begins at 23:50

Fouad, Seth and Iain all trained conventional bro way and all 3 crushed Mike in terms of bodybuilding so I think it’s a poor argument for Mike there

 

[Xplicit]

I knew Serge Nubret from the early 90s. He used to do extreme stretching in his movements. Worked for him. My biggest mistake was not stretching enough when I was younger. Not talking about extreme stretching, but I think you should incorporate stretching in all your workouts.

I need to start stretching. I never have, other then mid workout trying to alleviate painful pumps.

TMI I am sure, but I am coming down from 292lbs, and while I was up there, I was having a hell of a time wiping my ass and putting on socks... Not okay.

 

[b-boy]

Mike has this young man do some really deep stretching of the muscle in this chest workout, I tried this for shits and giggles one week on chest day and I had the most enormous pump! I was very cautious on execution so I didn't injure anything.

 

[st114]

I’ve gotten good results from extreme stretching DC style.. but I feel this is just a gimmick going off the deep end on the “full ROM light squeezing” bodybuilding training.

Even if this did work better than traditional lifting, I still wouldn’t do it and would rather not work out at all than train like this.
At a certain point this is almost becoming more of a weighted stretching/yoga session than a weight lifting exercise session. I see zero testosterone in this type of training

 

[control]

Interesting you bring this up, because I just started following this guy on Instagram after @DOGGCRAPP mentioned him in a post

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[control]

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