Overtraining Will Kill Your Gains - by Chris Aceto

[ajdos]

The whole 'myth' of overtraining is not a myth.
The thing is this, or this is what I notice.
You have guys who can tolerate more, they can do more frequent and higher volume workouts. They still recover -whereas another individual this is too much or even too little.
I think it was on this forum someone mentioned that thats what pros have, is an ability to recover from more frequent longer training sessions.
The trick is figuring out where YOU personally fall into that range, 2 on 1 off, 3 on 1 off, EOD, E2D. etc....
Also the bigger you get the longer it takes to recover, more strength more damage, more muscle tissue to repair and grow.
And lifestyle, if a guy has nothing to do but go to the gym and train and the rest of the day he can lay around and have low stress, this is ideal for growing, someone else may work 2-3 jobs, have kids, high amounts of responsibility and a overall stressful life, this is NOT ideal for recovery and growth.
Assessing these parameters and figuring out where you fall in the scheme of things will be an important measure of gym success and staying out of overtraining, I think for most of us after years and years we know how our bodies feel.
FOr me its simple, no strength progression, in fact Ill get a little weaker, tired, lethargic, not very excited about training. No pump, manic episodes where I don't sleep. Higher BP, my appetite starts to shift and suddenly I want sweets, which I never usually care for. Fats too.
And I need more sleep in the middle of the day, nodding off at work, headaches, shitty memory.
Those are just a few.

 

[TrinityD]

i found this to be true.
3-6 sets maximum per bodypart is all i need, and no more. anything higher than this will make me weaker and smaller in a short amount of time. my first year of training, I wasted so much time trying higher volume and every single time I completely and utterly failed..I'm talking I literally shrunk up to 1/2 an inch on a bodypart in 1 month.


every single person I have encountered that had a hard time putting on weight and size literally doubled-tripled their 'gains' in switching to my particular programming..... i believe it works for the majority of the population and they don't know it yet because:

A) they aren't willing to try
B) they tried, but did it "wrong", and blame the program when it was their own fault
c) they picked the wrong exercises. if you only have 4 sets to train your biceps, you probably shouldn't have all 4 sets be half-assed cable curls...
d) they don't have enough intensity, they are too used to training like wimps on 12-25 sets...so when they have to try very hard on 3-6 sets, they just can't do it since their CNS and willpower isn't developed enough. as a result, they didn't really perform a good 3-6 sets since most of them didn't even constitute a real 'hard working' set.

tbh, if you guys even look at somebody like ronnie coleman...who everybody considers as "high volume", you will realize he is not high volume whatsoever.

he picks 3-4 exercises per bodypart, and ramps to 1 all out working set. i never understood people's logic behind this.....

they think that if it says 4x12 barbell row, it means:
405x12
405x12
405x12
405x12

in actuality,it's something like:
135x15
225x15
315x15
405x12-15

these are completely different...it's 3 warmups and 1 all out set. none of those sets fatigue him whatsoever; one could aruge the 2nd to last set adds a little bit of fatigue, but that's not the point. If an individual can barbell row 405x12, wouldn't you think 315x15 is merely a warmup? If the man can add 100pounds and pump out pretty much the same reps, it's pretty clear it's not a big deal to him. however, for the sake of argument, I could see why somebody might consider it somewhat of a "1/2 set" in terms of how much fatigue it might induce...Lol....

when you look at his workout like this, you will realize he is actually only doing 3-4 true working sets per bodypart. so I ask the people who say he does 'high volume', where exactly is this high volume? i personally know a mr.olympia who did the same thing, he would say "I do 4-5sets of bench" and people automatically think that means 4-5 working sets of bench when it really is 1 working set(or 1.5 working sets for the people who want to argue the second to last set adds 'some fatigue').

at best, somebody could argue that the set PRIOR to his top working set is a "1/2 set" because it is nowhere near failure whatsoever, but it may induce SOME fatigue.

even if this is the case, then that means he is performing 4.5 - 6 working sets per body part.

so this "high volume king" that everybody says does 1,0000 sets actually does 3-4(or 4.5-6) working sets for back........lol

just saying heh

 

[desibaba]

Jay Cutler says that while he did as many as 30-40 sets for back when he was chasing Ronnie Coleman he ALWAYS stopped a rep or two short of failure. I bet that is actually a good idea instead of going all out even if its your final set of that exercise.

 

[TrinityD]

jay cutler trained completely different than ronnie coleman, lee haney, or dorian yates.

not all the mr.olympias did the same thing(OBVIOUSLY...). both jay and phil actually *DO* a lot of working sets...when they say 15-25 sets, they usually actually mean it.
when phil heath says he does 4 sets of barbell row, it does actually mean using 315 on all 4 sets...

i was only talking about ronnie/lee/dorian ,and many other BB's that fall in the same training category as they do

 

[ajdos]

Jay Cutler says that while he did as many as 30-40 sets for back when he was chasing Ronnie Coleman he ALWAYS stopped a rep or two short of failure. I bet that is actually a good idea instead of going all out even if its your final set of that exercise.

Jay also took 2 naps a day and rested up between long bouts. His lifestyle was super conducive to growth.
Give almost anyone that kind of daily rest and stimulate growth and you would he hard pressed to not see results.

 

[order66]

There is absolutely no scientific basis for the impact of "overtraining" on muscle growth. None. Zero. It has never been proven and will likely never be proven.

If it in fact exists, it is solely a neurological condition that can reduce work capacity but muscle growth and repair is not going to stop due to the central nervous system being over worked. What you will experience is fatigue and reduced capacity.

In fact when people take more than 48 hours off between training body parts, they should be far more concerned about de-conditioning than overtraining.

What has been shown is that it's extremely difficult to overtrain a muscle as was shown in this study:

Institution: Department of Ball-Related Sports Science, Taipei Physical Education College, Taipei City, Taiwan.

Source: Medicine and Science Sports & Exercise 2001 Oct;33(10):1732-8

Purpose: This study examined the effects of a 7-day repeated maximal isokinetic eccentric training period on the indicators of muscle damage and inflammatory response.

Other related studies also show that muscles which were subjected to very heavy loads on a continuous basis for days on end (no rest whatsoever) double in size and weight over that time through adaptation.

 

[kingpeon]

Jay also took 2 naps a day and rested up between long bouts. His lifestyle was super conducive to growth.
Give almost anyone that kind of daily rest and stimulate growth and you would he hard pressed to not see results.

Exactly! If all you have to do most of the day is eat, sleep and train you'd be amazed at how much training volume you can handle without over-training. I made the best gains of my life for over a year when I got laid-off in '08.

It makes sense since you only have so much energy reserves to put toward growing muscle. Anything else that you do will take away from this process. Anything and everything.

 

[desibaba]

There is absolutely no scientific basis for the impact of "overtraining" on muscle growth. None. Zero. It has never been proven and will likely never be proven.

If it in fact exists, it is solely a neurological condition that can reduce work capacity but muscle growth and repair is not going to stop due to the central nervous system being over worked. What you will experience is fatigue and reduced capacity.

In fact when people take more than 48 hours off between training body parts, they should be far more concerned about de-conditioning than overtraining.

What has been shown is that it's extremely difficult to overtrain a muscle as was shown in this study:



Other related studies also show that muscles which were subjected to very heavy loads on a continuous basis for days on end (no rest whatsoever) double in size and weight over that time through adaptation.

If that was true we could train for 3 hours a day, 7 days a week and continue to grow. Obviously that isnt the case. Although I agree that the "Be careful of training" mindset makes most people undertrain as well. You have to find the happy medium for yourself. A person with a desk job can usually train slightly more than someone who does some kind of physical labor or walks around for their job 8-10 hours a day. There really isnt a hard and set rule for any of this. You have to try and see what works best for your body.

 

[ajdos]

There is absolutely no scientific basis for the impact of "overtraining" on muscle growth. None. Zero. It has never been proven and will likely never be proven.

If it in fact exists, it is solely a neurological condition that can reduce work capacity but muscle growth and repair is not going to stop due to the central nervous system being over worked. What you will experience is fatigue and reduced capacity.

In fact when people take more than 48 hours off between training body parts, they should be far more concerned about de-conditioning than overtraining.

What has been shown is that it's extremely difficult to overtrain a muscle as was shown in this study:



Other related studies also show that muscles which were subjected to very heavy loads on a continuous basis for days on end (no rest whatsoever) double in size and weight over that time through adaptation.

As someone pointed out, many people simply cannot train endlessly, I would say anyone who can has a lifestyle conducive to doing so and the genetic capacity to do so.

 

[Omega-Red]

Over training , honestly unless your using maximum capacity lifts with staggering volume i doubt you will have issues.

I have friends in other sports:-

Gymnasts - who spends HOURS a day using arms and delts, nearly everysingle one of them have great arm and delt development considering the lack of protein and super supps in their diet.

Soccer Players - who squat and train legs multiple times per week and have great quad development .

Dancers - who have excellent calves

Builders - who have ridicilous forearms

yet in bodybuilding its like if you go past the set number on your paper muscle will start disintegrating and you will shrink to nothing.

Every single time I have ever seen anyone stall in mass gains , irrespective of their routine has been down to one of two things, a:- lack of food or b:- lack of super supps.

An observation i have made over the years is this simple fact, I have seen guys use high volume, low volume , DC , FST 7 and everything in between. I have seen guys huge on these routines and guys small on these routines, the difference was food intake and taking enough hormones to support growth. Do any routine you want, without food you wont grow.

I agree with Adjos, the biggest thing you can do is listen to your body. Sounds so simple, but it is. Your body will tell you when it wants to be trained and how hard you can go. Lately i have felt that my back gets stronger and more pumped with lots of volume, so i have been doing it and my back is the best its ever looked. Like wise with legs I have been squatting an avearge of 250-300 reps per session and they are getting bigger and leaner. Some days i will do less and lower reps.

It seems these days its all about , eat as much food as you can, take as much drugs as you can and lift as less as you can.

My mate did an experiment which every one would consider overtraining, he spent 10 mins straight every day doing bodyweight calf raises, 4 months later his calves were up 2 inches.

I am not advocating this is ideal, but i think people fear this over training thing to much, experiment with your body and nutrition to find what works best.

 

[brutus69]

genetics.
I know guys who do construction, masons, iron workers, who do hard labor all day every day, don't eat worth shit, smoke and drink, and are strong as hell and have linebacker builds.
u can say they "overtrain" when they carry concrete and cinder blocks all day long?
that's way more work than u do in an hour of gym time.
and gym rats eat a lot and use gear on top of it, and the guys I'm talking about would beat them in a "posedown" all day long.

 

[Prada]

Exactly! If all you have to do most of the day is eat, sleep and train you'd be amazed at how much training volume you can handle without over-training. I made the best gains of my life for over a year when I got laid-off in '08.

It makes sense since you only have so much energy reserves to put toward growing muscle. Anything else that you do will take away from this process. Anything and everything.

Haha, me too. When I had an accident and was off work, I had nothing to do but eat train and sleep. Literally. During those days I could even train 6-7 times a week with no CNS burnout. Cant do that with a normal life. I used to take a nap prewo and a nap PWO. Granted I did also gain a little fat but I made the best gains ever.

 

[Kaladryn]

More is NEVER better!!!

Overtraining is the number one thing that limits bodybuilder gains AND promotes higher doses.

After gaining 50lbs of muscle on 500mg test (over about three years) I hit a huge plateau that I could not overcome. At this point I MASSIVELY reduced my training volume, stopped overtraining, and gained another 30lbs over the next 1.5 years WITHOUT increasing the dose.

Overtraining is why people think they need 2g+ gear, because they DO need that much gear when massively overtraining.

 

[Kaladryn]

Over training , honestly unless your using maximum capacity lifts with staggering volume i doubt you will have issues.

I have friends in other sports:-

Gymnasts - who spends HOURS a day using arms and delts, nearly everysingle one of them have great arm and delt development considering the lack of protein and super supps in their diet.

Soccer Players - who squat and train legs multiple times per week and have great quad development .

Dancers - who have excellent calves

Builders - who have ridicilous forearms

yet in bodybuilding its like if you go past the set number on your paper muscle will start disintegrating and you will shrink to nothing.

Every single time I have ever seen anyone stall in mass gains , irrespective of their routine has been down to one of two things, a:- lack of food or b:- lack of super supps.

An observation i have made over the years is this simple fact, I have seen guys use high volume, low volume , DC , FST 7 and everything in between. I have seen guys huge on these routines and guys small on these routines, the difference was food intake and taking enough hormones to support growth. Do any routine you want, without food you wont grow.

I agree with Adjos, the biggest thing you can do is listen to your body. Sounds so simple, but it is. Your body will tell you when it wants to be trained and how hard you can go. Lately i have felt that my back gets stronger and more pumped with lots of volume, so i have been doing it and my back is the best its ever looked. Like wise with legs I have been squatting an avearge of 250-300 reps per session and they are getting bigger and leaner. Some days i will do less and lower reps.

It seems these days its all about , eat as much food as you can, take as much drugs as you can and lift as less as you can.

My mate did an experiment which every one would consider overtraining, he spent 10 mins straight every day doing bodyweight calf raises, 4 months later his calves were up 2 inches.

I am not advocating this is ideal, but i think people fear this over training thing to much, experiment with your body and nutrition to find what works best.

This is a total misunderstanding of systemic overtraining and how it relates to INTENSITY when lifting. Read Mentzer and Yates for further understanding.

 

[b-boy]

im more into the line of thinking of Milos, the body is capable of adapting to amazing things, overtraining is truly harder than you think to do to an advanced bodybuilder.

 

[Kaladryn]

im more into the line of thinking of Milos, the body is capable of adapting to amazing things, overtraining is truly harder than you think to do to an advanced bodybuilder.

My comparatively limited experience agrees with this, I think at a certain dose, overtraining because almost impossible (especially with gh). I have been able to take my training volume pretty high on 2g-ish total gear and a decent amount of GH thrown in, and had great results but this is only precontest.

 

[kingpeon]

You'll know you're over-training when your immune system is in the crapper. If you still feel healthy and strong even when you think you're over-training, then by all means keep doing what produces results.

Over-training is completely relative and particular to each individual person. I'm more worried about under-training.

 

[wannagetbig]

More is NEVER better!!!

Overtraining is the number one thing that limits bodybuilder gains AND promotes higher doses.

After gaining 50lbs of muscle on 500mg test (over about three years) I hit a huge plateau that I could not overcome. At this point I MASSIVELY reduced my training volume, stopped overtraining, and gained another 30lbs over the next 1.5 years WITHOUT increasing the dose.

Overtraining is why people think they need 2g+ gear, because they DO need that much gear when massively overtraining.

would you be able to go into specifics (i.e. sets& reps pre/post plateau)?

I'm a natural who trains 6 days a week (high volume, rest-pause/other intensity techniques, each bodypart 2-3 parts a week) cardio everyday post-workout -and am a little rundown (due to little sleep etc..) so am interested to hear about this

 

[John_Rambo]

From my understanding, you can definitely overtrain the CNS while strength training (1-6 rep max) and it isn't hard to do, but overtraining the actual muscles seems like a whole other project that's much, much harder to achieve.

 

[xeno316]

From my understanding, you can definitely overtrain the CNS while strength training (1-6 rep max) and it isn't hard to do, but overtraining the actual muscles seems like a whole other project that's much, much harder to achieve.

I agree. The sauce doesn't cover the CNS