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PCT and HPTA recovery: Toremifene vs Clomid

7asssa7

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Is Toremifene as effective as Clomid for pct and restoration of the HPTA?

Clomid has some nasty side effects: loss of libido, mood swings, so does not sound too good. Also, Clomid causes indigestion and bloating big time.

Has anyone tried Toremifene for pct and how did it work for you?
 

Swifto

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Is Toremifene as effective as Clomid for pct and restoration of the HPTA?

Clomid has some nasty side effects: loss of libido, mood swings, so does not sound too good. Also, Clomid causes indigestion and bloating big time.

Has anyone tried Toremifene for pct and how did it work for you?
Tore can be used, yes, but I wouldn't say it has the data Clomid has.

Tamoxifen would be a better choice than Tore.
 

7asssa7

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Tore can be used, yes, but I wouldn't say it has the data Clomid has.

Tamoxifen would be a better choice than Tore.

Thank you Sir!Do I really need to use Nolvadex with Clomid?Is clomid only enough?

I was thinking of doing 100 mg ED for two weeks, 50 mg ED for two weeks and then taper to 25 mg ED for two weeks
 

Rogue

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Tore can be used, yes, but I wouldn't say it has the data Clomid has.

Tamoxifen would be a better choice than Tore.
I second the use of Tamox over either solely based on experience with the compound.
 

Hiram1st

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Here’s a great explanation I’ve had booked marked from some research:


There are 2 major components involved in recovery. Testosterone production and Spermatogenesis.

LH and FSH are both required for the equation. LH is produced by the pituitary and stimulates the Leydig cells to produce testosterone. Once testosterone is in production it works alongside FSH and stimulates sertoli cells to produce sperm. Sperm production is hindered if either of these are unhealthy. They both work in synergy. You need BOTH to be at healthy levels.

clomid has multiple effects. It's an anti-estrogen, so it obviously decreases the estrogenic effects in your body by stimulating the Hypothalamus back to life and sending gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) to your pituitary, so that LH/FSH can be secreted.

Nolva boosts the effects of clomid because it put clomid into "competition" mode where they both fight for a receptors to bind to. This competitiveness will only occur with the presence of BOTH nolva/clomid, and will inevitably resolve the issue of excess estrogen in the Hypothalamus. This will trigger both LH and FSH to crank UP, as the high estrogen in this cluster is suppressive. This entire scenario is not as effective with only one drug.

Furthermore varying the compounds; Since we know both stimulate LH, what most don't know is that the act is different. clomid boosts the amplitude of LH serum, but has no effect on the frequency. Nolvadex is the complete opposite in that area, where it boosts the actual frequency of LH and has no effect on its amplitude.

You're probably assuming they're identical and overpowering... clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Nolva is also mixed, however.... it is a pure antagonist in the E receptor in breast tissue. There is a reason that clomid is not recommended for gynecomastia reversal, but Nolva is.

Can you recover with just Nolvadex, or just clomid? Well, anything is possible. But why would you take that risk if the combination gives you a much better chance? To save a few bucks and risk your health? clomid when coupled with Nolvadex is clearly the safer choice over using either compound individually.

There's NEVER a good reason to spew random information and flood the boards with random statements. You also JUST started a thread asking about running multiple compounds. Does your random rule not apply to you? Not trying to beat you up here, Zero, but let's be logical, at least.


Post Cycle Therapy should consist of both Tamoxifen (Nolvadex ) and Clomiphene (Clomid). The combination is important as they work in synergy to help you recover. Running only one of them will hinder your chance of recovery some. Your PCT protocol for this cycle should look like the following:

Clomid @ 75/50/50/50 & Nolvadex @ 40/20/20/20

Each number above is representative of the daily dose for that week; for a 4 week total PCT run. So clomid would be taken at 75 mg daily for 1 week, then 3 weeks at 50mg daily. And Nolvadex would be 40 mg daily for 1 week, then 20 mg daily for the last 3 weeks. Make sense?
 

BigRisk

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Don’t waste your time just go trt.. it is what it is.. you made the decision to run gear. Buy the ticket take the ride.. find a good urologist and get a script
 

Swifto

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Here’s a great explanation I’ve had booked marked from some research:


There are 2 major components involved in recovery. Testosterone production and Spermatogenesis.

LH and FSH are both required for the equation. LH is produced by the pituitary and stimulates the Leydig cells to produce testosterone. Once testosterone is in production it works alongside FSH and stimulates sertoli cells to produce sperm. Sperm production is hindered if either of these are unhealthy. They both work in synergy. You need BOTH to be at healthy levels.

clomid has multiple effects. It's an anti-estrogen, so it obviously decreases the estrogenic effects in your body by stimulating the Hypothalamus back to life and sending gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) to your pituitary, so that LH/FSH can be secreted.

Nolva boosts the effects of clomid because it put clomid into "competition" mode where they both fight for a receptors to bind to. This competitiveness will only occur with the presence of BOTH nolva/clomid, and will inevitably resolve the issue of excess estrogen in the Hypothalamus. This will trigger both LH and FSH to crank UP, as the high estrogen in this cluster is suppressive. This entire scenario is not as effective with only one drug.

Furthermore varying the compounds; Since we know both stimulate LH, what most don't know is that the act is different. clomid boosts the amplitude of LH serum, but has no effect on the frequency. Nolvadex is the complete opposite in that area, where it boosts the actual frequency of LH and has no effect on its amplitude.

You're probably assuming they're identical and overpowering... clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Nolva is also mixed, however.... it is a pure antagonist in the E receptor in breast tissue. There is a reason that clomid is not recommended for gynecomastia reversal, but Nolva is.

Can you recover with just Nolvadex, or just clomid? Well, anything is possible. But why would you take that risk if the combination gives you a much better chance? To save a few bucks and risk your health? clomid when coupled with Nolvadex is clearly the safer choice over using either compound individually.

There's NEVER a good reason to spew random information and flood the boards with random statements. You also JUST started a thread asking about running multiple compounds. Does your random rule not apply to you? Not trying to beat you up here, Zero, but let's be logical, at least.


Post Cycle Therapy should consist of both Tamoxifen (Nolvadex ) and Clomiphene (Clomid). The combination is important as they work in synergy to help you recover. Running only one of them will hinder your chance of recovery some. Your PCT protocol for this cycle should look like the following:

Clomid @ 75/50/50/50 & Nolvadex @ 40/20/20/20

Each number above is representative of the daily dose for that week; for a 4 week total PCT run. So clomid would be taken at 75 mg daily for 1 week, then 3 weeks at 50mg daily. And Nolvadex would be 40 mg daily for 1 week, then 20 mg daily for the last 3 weeks. Make sense?
Some of this is utter nonsense. Running either Clomid or Tamoxifen alone will not "hinder your chances of recovery". The same can be said for them "competing" where do people get this shit?

Clomid has been shown to sensitise the pituitary to GnRH, whilst Tamoxifen has not. Both do work well together I think.

Tamoxifen alone has been shown to raise endogenous Test just fine. 40mg/ED for the first 7 days, then 20mg/ED for 5 more weeks.
 

Swifto

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“PCT”

It’s all bullshit, just buying time mimicking being on cycle while your body recovers on its own.
Yeah, don't use drugs that will help speed the process and assist your goal of restoring endogenous testosterone.
 

FrancisK

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Yeah, don't use drugs that will help speed the process and assist your goal of restoring endogenous testosterone.

Show me evidence that it speeds up the process and restores endogenous testosterone. If you told me HCG on cycle sure that has science behind it but clomid only mimics being on cycle until your body naturally recovers to whatever your new new normal is and has some really shitty side effects to go with it, doesn't speed up anything.

Why would anyone even bother with TRT if there are things available that actually work in "restoring" natural testosterone levels?

I would love it if the shit actually worked and so would countless others but it doesn't, it's parroted bullshit pushed by people who want you to believe there is no consequence to using AAS because they have a vested monetary interest in convincing people of that.

Really I would love to see some evidence not even looking for an argument here, I would go on "PCT" right now if it actually did something besides buy time.
 

Rogue

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If your looking to get off after having been on for a while...
This is my advise:
 

Swifto

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Show me evidence that it speeds up the process and restores endogenous testosterone. If you told me HCG on cycle sure that has science behind it but clomid only mimics being on cycle until your body naturally recovers to whatever your new new normal is and has some really shitty side effects to go with it, doesn't speed up anything.

Why would anyone even bother with TRT if there are things available that actually work in "restoring" natural testosterone levels?

I would love it if the shit actually worked and so would countless others but it doesn't, it's parroted bullshit pushed by people who want you to believe there is no consequence to using AAS because they have a vested monetary interest in convincing people of that.

Really I would love to see some evidence not even looking for an argument here, I would go on "PCT" right now if it actually did something besides buy time.
You don't think the hundreds or thousands of studies treating men with Clomiphene mean anything?

Here's one:


J Sex Med. 2005 Sep;2(5):716-21.
Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism.
Shabsigh A1, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E.
Author information
Abstract

AIM:
Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio.
METHODS:
Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed.
RESULTS:
The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients.
CONCLUSIONS:
Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.
 

Swifto

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Show me evidence that it speeds up the process and restores endogenous testosterone. If you told me HCG on cycle sure that has science behind it but clomid only mimics being on cycle until your body naturally recovers to whatever your new new normal is and has some really shitty side effects to go with it, doesn't speed up anything.

Why would anyone even bother with TRT if there are things available that actually work in "restoring" natural testosterone levels?

I would love it if the shit actually worked and so would countless others but it doesn't, it's parroted bullshit pushed by people who want you to believe there is no consequence to using AAS because they have a vested monetary interest in convincing people of that.

Really I would love to see some evidence not even looking for an argument here, I would go on "PCT" right now if it actually did something besides buy time.
Not everyone wants to inject themselves with an old based drug IM once or twice per week.

SERMs are often prescribed to males for the treatment of hypogonadism and other low testosterone related conditions. It does work and is prescribed.

Recent review of data:


Conclusion: Conclusion CC is safe and effective and should remain in the armament of urologists treating hypogonadal men, especially men interested in preservation of fertility.

Why don't you go and read all the data on anti-estrogens and the treatment of hyponadism, instead of following the little "PCT doesn't work crowd" here. You talk of parroted bullshit, so provide me with a study supporting your theories?
 

FrancisK

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I’m not advocating for TRT what i am saying is PCT has no science behind it, those drugs don’t lead to recovery from AAS use PCT just buys time until your body recovers to whatever your new normal it.

That study was for using clomid in place of TRT and actually supports what I am saying, did you read it? If i read it wrong please let me know because again i would love to be wrong on this. Clomid mimics being on cycle, it doesn’t lead to faster recovery it just raises your levels as a temporary fix, it doesn’t help you recover your “normal” levels it just raises them while you’re on it.

Also the study says no side effects were reported by 36 men who used the clomid which we all know can’t be true. So even though it actually backs my argument not yours I wouldn’t exactly it trust that study.
 

Rogue

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That study was for using clomid in place of TRT and actually supports what I am saying, did you read it? If i read it wrong please let me know because again i would love to be wrong on this. Clomid mimics being on cycle, it doesn’t lead to faster recovery it just raises your levels as a temporary fix, it doesn’t help you recover your “normal” levels it just raises them while you’re on it.
That very accurate IMO. This is why I advocate the leap from TRT dose into cessation vs. Going from 'Cycle' dose with a typical PCT.Its to have a smoother transition.
 

Rogue

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Tried to edit...
Throughout the years I have watched both protocols in athletes and their feedback/blood works etc... I drew this conclusion after observing a greater success rate of HPTA recovery and so im sharing what I have observed.
NOT medical advise!
 

7asssa7

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As FrancisK said, majority of those Clomid Studies simply show that T levels increase while on Clomid and go down to lows after clomid is discontinued. Show us the studies which show recovery of HPTA after Clomid use and its discontinuation.

A lot of guys finish their cycle, wait 3-4 weeks and do bloodwork, which shows low LH & FSH + low T. They then commence Clomid + Nolvadex, retest and their Test is 800-1000, LH is 10+. They finish their pct, wait another 4-5 weeks and their bloods show low T and LH again.
 

Swifto

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I’m not advocating for TRT what i am saying is PCT has no science behind it, those drugs don’t lead to recovery from AAS use PCT just buys time until your body recovers to whatever your new normal it.

That study was for using clomid in place of TRT and actually supports what I am saying, did you read it? If i read it wrong please let me know because again i would love to be wrong on this. Clomid mimics being on cycle, it doesn’t lead to faster recovery it just raises your levels as a temporary fix, it doesn’t help you recover your “normal” levels it just raises them while you’re on it.

Also the study says no side effects were reported by 36 men who used the clomid which we all know can’t be true. So even though it actually backs my argument not yours I wouldn’t exactly it trust that study.
How can you claim PCT has no science behind it? Your primary objective is to raise endogenous testosterone after the usage of AAS. And there are drugs that exist that help that process. Its not rocket science but I can see you don't understand it.

Yeah, no side effects are reported and you don't want to believe what the data says now, really? Come on. Now the study isn't correct so it fits your argument? What a load of bullshit.
 

Swifto

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As FrancisK said, majority of those Clomid Studies simply show that T levels increase while on Clomid and go down to lows after clomid is discontinued. Show us the studies which show recovery of HPTA after Clomid use and its discontinuation.

A lot of guys finish their cycle, wait 3-4 weeks and do bloodwork, which shows low LH & FSH + low T. They then commence Clomid + Nolvadex, retest and their Test is 800-1000, LH is 10+. They finish their pct, wait another 4-5 weeks and their bloods show low T and LH again.
No, show me a study that shows endogenous testosterone declines after Clomid usage? Because all of this is theorised and not backed by data. I've shown you studies that show SERMs raise endogenous testosterone in hypogonadal males. The burden of proof is on you to claim otherwise.

Probably because 99% of people start PCT when AAS are still active in the body, so endogenous ganodrotrophins including LH and FSH will still be zero. It will take up to 5 half lives for an AAS such as Testosterone Enanthate to become inactive in the body, which equates to around 5 weeks.

I have suggested countless times SERMs should be tapered post-PCT to prevent this (if it even occurs). It may occur due to the inhibit effects of estrogen.

Some of you need to read this. Its written by Dr. Michael Scally an endocrinologist and is as up to date as you will get online: https://www.steroidabuse.org/information/post-cycle-therapy-pct/
 

Swifto

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Tried to edit...
Throughout the years I have watched both protocols in athletes and their feedback/blood works etc... I drew this conclusion after observing a greater success rate of HPTA recovery and so im sharing what I have observed.
NOT medical advise!
Hello Mr. Copy and Paste :)

Dr. Scally has probably treated more people than you have observed for Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism (ASIH) and has his own version of PCT (power PCT) and suggests the usage anti-estrogens and HCG for post AAS use. I'll take his qualified opinion over you sir.
 

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