PCT Bloodwork

[gyno]

First, let me state that I have not jumped on the DVD train YET. I have taken the advice of some of the brightest minds in this sport, and chose to wait until I felt like I pushed my size and strength to a level VERY near my genetic potential.

There are a few things I would like to avoid once i do hop on that train, primarily, not going hypo. It seems like there are ALOT of guys on HRT because they didn't know when to stop, nor did they know how to do PCT.
I don't want that to happen to me. Yes, I am tired of stagnation, but I'm not ready to be on prescriptions the rest of my life either. I have done a LOT of research, and it seems that PCT is the most debated topic around. Everyone and their cousin has the "right" way to do it. Me, i'm more of an emperical evidence kind of guy sooo...

Is there anyone who has actually gotten post cycle bloodwork to validate the efficacy of their PCT protocol. Main concern of course being endogenous test levels within "normal" range.
Any help would be greatly appreciated guys, thanks.

 

[gyno]

so...does anyone get their bloodwork checked after PCT?

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Well

so...does anyone get their bloodwork checked after PCT?

You say you have spoken to "the brightest minds in this sport" about this....did you not like their answer?

 

[gyno]

You say you have spoken to "the brightest minds in this sport" about this....did you not like their answer?

where did I ever say I've spoken to the brightest minds. Reading comprehension is a beautiful thing.
I said I've listened to the brightest minds. Guys like Dogg, Iamabadman, etc...

If anybody has a serious answer, it would be awesome. Anything besides spiteful comments carried over from disagreements in other threads.

Dante has talked about guys getting sick, acquiring injuries and so on from not normalizing their endogenous test levels. Alot of people have THEORIES, but I wanted to know if anyone gets lab work done regularly to see their theories backed up by the numbers

 

[EasyEJL]

Even if they did have their theories backed up with bloodwork, it would be relatively valueless unless you were their identical twin, and ran the identical cycle with identical sleep, workout and eating patterns.

Your starting point as well as your end of cycle point (bloodwork wise) would be what determines what you need for pct. There is no universal PCT that works perfect for everyone every time, regardless of cycle.

The whole idea of normalizing your test levels would be based on what of the various hormone levels have changed, and how much they changed. You'd want do something differently if LH was significantly suppressed vs if it wasn't, if E2 was higher than baseline than if it was lower, etc. And what works well for one person does NOT necessarily work so well for others. Nolva as a good example does vary from person to person. Even in its original use for breast cancer patients, its ineffective in almost 25% of women, while working in the other 75%....

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Honestly

Even if they did have their theories backed up with bloodwork, it would be relatively valueless unless you were their identical twin, and ran the identical cycle with identical sleep, workout and eating patterns.

Your starting point as well as your end of cycle point (bloodwork wise) would be what determines what you need for pct. There is no universal PCT that works perfect for everyone every time, regardless of cycle.

The whole idea of normalizing your test levels would be based on what of the various hormone levels have changed, and how much they changed. You'd want do something differently if LH was significantly suppressed vs if it wasn't, if E2 was higher than baseline than if it was lower, etc. And what works well for one person does NOT necessarily work so well for others. Nolva as a good example does vary from person to person. Even in its original use for breast cancer patients, its ineffective in almost 25% of women, while working in the other 75%....

That is a great answer....

 

[gyno]

THanks E.

I see what you're saying. BUT...LOL...indulge me for a second.

HPTA is is the same in all men (not withstanding birth defects obviously). The only real differance is the functionality and norm values...correct? So, the general substances being used e.g. nolva, clomid, HCG, would all be the same, with just variances in amount and possibly timing?

 

[PHIL HERNON]

SPELLING???

THanks E.

I see what you're saying. BUT...LOL...indulge me for a second.

HPTA is is the same in all men (not withstanding birth defects obviously). The only real differance is the functionality and norm values...correct? So, the general substances being used e.g. nolva, clomid, HCG, would all be the same, with just variances in amount and possibly timing?

Check yourself there bug guy...(spelling)

 

[EasyEJL]

In a general sort of way yes, but remember that it is the hypothalamic pituitary gonadal axis - a combination of different parts. So yes in a general way barring some genetic anomaly HCG will act like LH and help keep T levels up if they are below normal

http://www.publish.csiro.au/?act=view_file&file_id=SRB03Ab53.pdf

And clomid as well has studies, although outside of steroid hypogonadism its used a bit differently

STIMULATION TESTS OF PITUITARY-LEYDIG CELL FUNCTION IN NORMAL MALE SUBJECTS AND HYPOGONADAL MEN
D. C. ANDERSON 1 , J. C. MARSHALL 1 , J. L. YOUNG 1 T. RUSSELL FRASER 1
1 Endocrine Unit, Department of Medicine, Royal Postgraduate Medical School, London
Correspondence: Dr. D. C. Anderson, Department of Medicine, St Bartholomew's Hospital, London, E.C.I.
ABSTRACT

The Leydig cell reserve was assessed by measuring plasma 17 ß-hydroxy androgens (17 OHA) after two injections of human chorionic gonadotrophin (HCG) 2000 i.u. 3 days apart. In fifteen normal men the 17 OHA rose by a mean of 109%, to above 11 ng/ml, between 1 and 3 days after intramuscular injection. In cryptorchid boys the response was much slower, adult levels being reached in 1-4 weeks. In panhypopituitarism 17 OHA levels rose rapidly to the normal range, whereas in isolated gonadotrophin deficiency the response was much more variable. Subjects with chromatin-positive Klinefelter's syndrome also responded to HCG. No response was seen in patients with complete testicular degeneration. Peak serum HCG levels occurred at 24 hr.

Pituitary luteinizing hormone (LH) production was tested with clomiphene citrate 3 mg/kg/day for 10 days. In nine normal men LH levels rose by a mean of 107% to above the normal range, and the 17 OHA by a mean of 114% to above 11.5 ng/ml. No response was seen in early puberty, in panhypopituitarism or in isolated gonadotrophin deficiency where LH and 17 OHA levels remained low. In Klinefelter's syndrome and testicular degeneration the high LH levels were unchanged.

The HCG test is of value in confirming the presence of functioning Leydig cells, while the principal use of the clomiphene test is in diagnosing gonadotrophin deficiency, where basal LH levels may be only borderline low.

But the specifics of an end of cycle bloodwork would be the only thing that could tell you what you need to take, and help be a guide as to dosing.

 

[gyno]

Check yourself there bug guy...(spelling)

AAAANND...you bit. It's easier than fishing for sharks with blood. Anything productive to add to this thread?

 

[gyno]

I see what you're saying E.
My question is, after exogenous hormones like HCG, and compounds like

The reason why I ask is this. If I do this, I'm going to do it right. I firmly believe in everything Dogg has written, and place alot of trust in his writings. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find much about his theories pertaining to AAS.
I see that he recommens something like
6/3
6/3
6/3
or
7/4
7/4 etc. Short cycles with aggressive PCT. Maybe he will chime in.

 

[EasyEJL]

If you are taking over 300mg of any testosterone for anything past 2 weeks, at the very least your total T level should be totally suppressed. how your other levels end up is up in the air of course. Short cycles have their benefits definitely, but of course have their downsides too. Even using test suspension every day you won't make the gains you could in a longer cycle using cypionate. But it you are mostly trying to break a plateau, then a single short cycle using suspension or maybe prop could see nice results and have less overall effect on hormone levels. But no guarantees.

If you are considering doing a number of short cycles close together its far iffier and there is less overall scientific data, and if you aren't getting blood tests done between each small cycle to determine whether you are ready yet to start the next, you may as well just run a longer one anyhow. Basically you'd have to work at a medical lab to be able to make it work as otherwise the cost would be astronomical. Otherwise, how long do you take off between those cycles? Without bloodwork to show otherwise, studies have shown that it can take as long as 6 months for levels to return to baseline (granted that was in cases with no PCT). Doing the multiple short cycles closer together without fulling normalizing between could be worse than a single longer cycle.

 

[bigcat56]

Gyno:

You may be interested in the brief discussion on short cycles discussed here:

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45593

Or a more general discussion here:

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21250&highlight=short+cycle

Also do a search for posts made by DAD, his thoughts on short cycles and PCT are worth reading

EasyEJL is making a great point about how specific this type of thing is to each individual. Personally I think this is really why there is so much debate around Long vs Short cycles, different people respond differently.

Repeating a 4/2 or 6/3 or 8/4 etc… may work great for some (I personally prefer this method) allowing for your body to quickly recover from your brief “on” periods, allowing for greater retention of gain with minimal sides.

HOWEVER, it CAN put a lot of undue stress on your body if you personally don’t / can’t recover in such a brief “off” period. This can result in WORSE sides and with LESS retention of gains.

It is all individual….

My opinion, if your key concern is doing things as safely as possible, especially your first time then make sure you do the following:

1) Follow all general guidelines (sterility, having all ancillaries before starting, etc…)
2) Be conservative in your compound choice and dosing schedule
3) Follow a planned out PCT that is generally appropriate for your compound choice and dosing schedule
4) get blood work done before / after

As EasyEJL has said you really wont know how YOUR body responds until YOU do it. Take this one step at a time, go through this the first time and then adjust from there, don’t try and plan out repetitive cycles / long-term usage plans without first knowing how your body will respond to your first cycle.