People eat too much protein

[Biggerp73]

Just ate about 20 ounces of chicken breast covered in sweet & sour sauce and chili powder

 

[Biggerp73]

One of the best nutrition coaches in all of strength and bb, Justin Harris (who has a PhD in this) on protein metabolism impact on development.

Talk on protein intake equating to muscle growth at 10:40 mark

Didn't listen to the whole thing but you can keep blood aminos elevated with larger amounts of protein less frequently.. say 75-100grams of protein each meal.. 4 meals per day.. with about 5 hours between each meal... If you ate 100g protein.. your blood aminos will still be elevated 5 hours later...

 

[IronLion2]

Actually his PHD is in Atomic Physics. I've known Justin for a long long time and took Kuclo and him thru the paces back in the 2000's

Atomic physics don't play into cellular metabolism and nutrition? I understand he's an engineer by trade, but a PhD in applied science is broad enough to be legitimate credentials.

 

[FK86]

I've posted this before, but this six minute video by Justin Harris put more into perspective regarding bodybuilding nutrition than anything else.

Protein as a source of glucose... - Muscle Mentor -

We cover a topic that is often overlooked in bodybuilding circles… Protein and what happens to the excess that we tend to consume on a bodybuilding diet.

musclementor.net

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Atomic physics don't play into cellular metabolism and nutrition? I understand he's an engineer by trade, but a PhD in applied science is broad enough to be legitimate credentials.

I really wish you could see this post. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...hUKEwiosq2r197pAhWUHjQIHbIODYgQ4dUDCAw&uact=5

Because back then when he was turning himself from a heavyweight into a superheavyweight at the pinnacle of his size....he carb cycled and he took in a great deal of protein....in the 360-400 grams range if i remember correctly which is about 1.4 grams per lb. He has stayed at my house, we have trained together....him and Steve were eating massive amounts of food on their way up in size during those years in a dramatic way. He was/is a huge believer in carbohydrates (more so nowadays) I look at carbohydrates as the least important macro after protein and fats. A means to an end to gain weight if needed, to be full, for fuel etc...I will guarantee something.....because I didnt want to be one of these fools that dies at 44 years of age from massive drug usage from severe naivety and shortsightedness in their 20's and 30's, I used food as a means to accomplish what i personally wanted to accomplish...and I can guarantee that I am in the 99th percentile of eating the most carbohydrates on this board. I can absolutely guarantee that. To go from 137 to 303 I had to crush the white rice to do that. You can do it the drug way which looks awesome on the journey but noone has quite figured out how to live past 50 that way or you can do it the food way which is much less glorious (and I knew I personally needed to bulk up to 300lbs to create the leverage and strength I needed to handle huge weights for reps which created a great deal of muscle mass)...and I personally did that with large amounts of protein and large amounts of carbs. But I would rather overeat protein any day than overeat carbs. Again your bringing up an individual that I know very well in which the person your talking about took in a large amount of protein when he was at his absolute largest.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I mean this is straight from 2007 with Justin:

"Here's what I've been doing with my diet recently.

Monday: medium
tuesday: medium
wednesday: low
thursday: very high
friday: medium
saturday: low with a cheat meal
Sunday: low

My high days have been as high as 1,000g of carbs, but typically end up around 700-800g. I let my body tell me what to eat that day. If I'm very depleted, my body will tell me to eat. If I'm not, I won't take in quite as much.

My medium days are around 400g of carbs, and 400g of protein. I will be dropping the carbs a bit this week though. It will probably only be on tuesday's and friday's medium days. The amount will drop about 50g total, so not that much."

400 grams of protein is not low protein.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

See I dont understand alot of why some guys do the "do what I say not what I do" scenario.

To go against the grain and create a niche for themselves?
I dont know Patrick Tuor in the least. You guys claim he is low protein and high carb and its a totally different way of doing things and everyones abuzz!
He trained Dennis Wolfe years back and he had him doing 500 grams a day of protein in the offseason. Is that low protein to any of you guys?
Patrick it looks like was an IFBB pro at one time back in 2001 i believe. If he is having dennis wolfe do 500 grams of protein in 2010 do you really believe Patrick was doing 100-120 grams of protein himself back when he put on the majority of his size in the 1990's and up to he got his pro card? This is why i have a problem with this severe amnesia that happens in this sport with people who got to a level doing a certain methodology and then tell people later on something different like they were doing this "something different" all along....obviously they weren't!

And I get it...EVERYONE is trying to create their niche in the sport, to look like "wow look at that new fad over there!".....its boring the same old, progressive training, mg of drugs, and ingestion of protein.....its boring as all hell even though it works and always has. The only way your going to get noticed nowadays if you do something totally different and new. I cant blame someone for that I guess.

URL didnt work when i posted it...you will have to go here and translate german to english

http://www.bbszene.de/bodybuilding-forum/showthread.php5?t=116861

 

[Gunsmith]

400 grams of protein is not low protein.

Dante , what is your opinion in what Justin said in the video about excess protein be converted to glucose.??
I know that gluconeogenesis does happen and we've heard back and forth that the body dose convert "all excess protein to glucose" then we've heard that it only converts enough to support the brain and liver with the just enough glucose they need and the rest is wasted out.
(I believe you are in the later group)

One way or the other do you know of any studies that have been done that prove one way or the other??

 

[Powerlifter]

Dante, how many grams of protein do you suggest for someone looking to gain size? 1.5-2g per pound?

 

[Swifto]

Dante , what is your opinion in what Justin said in the video about excess protein be converted to glucose.??
I know that gluconeogenesis does happen and we've heard back and forth that the body dose convert "all excess protein to glucose" then we've heard that it only converts enough to support the brain and liver with the just enough glucose they need and the rest is wasted out.
(I believe you are in the later group)

One way or the other do you know of any studies that have been done that prove one way or the other??

Lyle Mcdonald discusses this here (Question 5):

Getting Back into Training at Age 46

A question and answer about getting back into the weight room when you’re older.

bodyrecomposition.com

 

[URODA]

A bit more detail on what actually would happen to amino acid in circulation tho would be nice, I have heard from Layne Norton I believe that a pool would remain for 24 hour period, hence why the incomplete protein thing is not really a thing if you eat normal throughout the day anyway

 

[danieltx]

I really wish you could see this post. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ei=0vDTXqiBLJS90PEPsp20wAg&q="I+got+a+request+to+talk+about+my+diet+back"&oq="I+got+a+request+to+talk+about+my+diet+back"&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzoHCAAQRxCwAzoFCCEQoAE6BQghEKsCUI0VWIUvYJ0xaAFwAHgAgAGLAYgB2QGSAQMxLjGYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwiosq2r197pAhWUHjQIHbIODYgQ4dUDCAw&uact=5

Thanks for hunting this down. This is why I shared so many details on my diet, weight fluctuations, etc., in my 220 / 6% thread, it's rare to find honest looks at what advanced guys are doing and always interesting to see the approaches taken.

Sharing Justin Harris' post here for everyone - **broken link removed**

I got a request to talk about my diet back when I was training for the USAs and filming Project Superheavyweight.

I can tell you exactly what my diet was throughout the 2006-2007 offseason and precontest because it was as precise and OCD as any period of my life. Looking back—I rarely deviated by even an ounce here or there during the entire year and a half from when I won the supers at the 2006 Jr. USAs and when I did the 2007 USAs.
This was great in the fact that I added nearly 20lbs of contest weight (after adding 15lbs of contest weight already leading up to the 2006 Jr. USAs) and nearly 50lbs of contest weight in less than 3 years after winning the Mr. Michigan in 2004.

However….looking back, it wasn’t so great because I was absolutely and completely burned out by the time I stepped on stage at the 2007 USAs. I had made great progress (looking back…50lbs in 3 years after having already been training for almost 10 years at that point was a hell of a lot of progress in a short period of time), but I was so rigid and OCD in my diet and training that I kind of got lost in the whole process and forgot what I loved about lifting.


Offseason diet 2006-2007

Meal 1 (7:30am): 2 scoops whey isolate, 2 cups oatmeal w/ raisins
Intraworkout (9am): 1 serving Anatrop, 50g waxy maize
Post workout (10:30am): 1 serving Anatrop, 2 scoops whey isolate, 100g waxy maize
Meal 3 (12:30pm): 6oz flank steak, 2 cups rice, 1 cup veggies
Meal 4 (2pm): 2 scoops whey isolate, 100g waxy maize
Meal 5 (4pm): 6oz flank steak, 2 cups rice, 1 cup veggies
Meal 6 (6pm): 2 scoops whey isolate, 100g waxy maize
Meal 7 (8pm): 6oz flank steak, 2 cups rice, 1 cup veggies
Meal 8 (10pm): Whatever my wife made for dinner (usually fajitas or some kind of meat and potatoes. About twice a week I’d get 4 seared Saji wraps from a Mediterranean place that is no longer there)
Meal 9: (before bed): 2 scoops ON casein protein (drink half)
Middle of the night: finish other half of the casein shake


High day deviation: About once or twice a week I would have a “high carb day” where I would lower the protein drinks to one scoop and replace that with about 400g of extra carbs throughout the day.

Non weight training deviation: On days I didn’t train with weights I would usually sleep in a bit longer (if my kids didn’t wake up too early) and only have the meal 1 and then have meal 3 when I got to work.


Notes

*The flank steak was weighed after cooking--so it was probably closer to 7-8oz raw*

I really did eat flank steak and rice every single meal (I think you can see me prepping my meals for the day in Project Superheavyweight). The only time I’d vary from that is if we ran out of either item for whatever reason—usually it would be rice, which I would replace with potatoes or plain pasta. If we ran out of flank steak it would be replaced with some form of round steak. In VERY rare circumstances, I would replace the red meat with chicken.

I ate so much flank steak that my wife would buy every bit of flank steak the supermarket had available every single time she went shopping. After a few months of this she had a funny encounter with the staff. While she was grabbing all the flank steak off the rack and loading up her cart she noticed a group of people kind of staring at her from behind the double doors to the back freezer/butcher area in the supermarket.

One of them eventually came out to talk to her since it was a bit awkward. They had been trying to figure out for months where all the flank steak had been going. They kept increasing their flank steak quantity, but no matter how much they would put out….it would always be gone before the end of the weekend. They were taking bets on who was buying all the flank. They had assumed a new Asian restaurant had opened up and they didn’t have a bulk supplier lined up yet. That, or some variation of that theme was the leading guess. They had actually been waiting for the week when that restaurant finally hooked up with a bulk supplier and their flank steak would suddenly sit un-purchased on the shelves and go bad…but it never happened.

When the flank steak bandit ended up being a 120lb female they were all doubly confused.

My wife got a chuckle out of it and told them that her husband was a bodybuilder, and flank steak was his protein of choice. I think she more-or-less became like a "Norm" from Cheers at the butcher section of the store after that....they'd all wave a bloody hand to say "hi!" when she stopped by for her cart-full of flank.



Precontest diet 2007

My changes were very simple in the precontest diet. I dropped the rice to 1 cup per meal and increased the flank to 8oz per meal. I also dropped the shakes and stuck with whole food as much as possible.

Meal 1 (7:30am): 2 cups egg whites, 1 cup oatmeal
Meal 2 – post workout (10:30am): 2 scoops whey isolate, 100g waxy maize
Meal 3 (1:30pm): 8oz flank steak, 1 cup rice, 2 cups veggies
Meal 4 (4pm): 8oz flank steak, 1 cup rice, 2 cups veggies
Meal 5 (7pm): 8oz flank steak, 1 cup rice 2 cups veggies
Meal 6 (10pm): 8oz flank steak, 2 cups veggies

High day deviation: Usually once per week I’d have a high carb day where I’d drop the protein down to 6oz per meal and would generally shoot for 1000g of carbs from a mix of waxy maize and rice

Non weight training deviation: On days I didn’t train with weights I would replace meal 2 with another meal of flank steak and rice. I would also occasionally drop the rice from meal 5 and possibly meal 4—these would be my “low carb” days


Notes:

Looking back, I don’t know how I stayed so lean with my offseason diet. I’m currently back up to around 275lbs and relatively lean and there’s no way in hell I could handle that amount of calories right now. I think my ability to assimilate such a large volume of food in the offseason was the biggest factor in my muscle gain from 2004-2007. Another thing that I’ve struggled with scientifically over the years is how my body weight didn’t change with my precontest diet. I started my prep at 262lbs at 17 weeks out and was 266lbs at 10 days out (if anyone followed my progress back then—the “back porch pics” where me at 266lbs and 10 days out).
My weight stayed steady at right around 260lbs throughout the prep and I slowly leaned up each week at that weight. It would fluctuate with my high carb days—going up over 260lbs on the high days and dipping as low as the mid 250s on my low days. I was lucky enough to start the prep very lean—I could have easily gotten by with a 6 week prep with how lean I was when I started, so I didn’t really have to make dramatic changes. I mostly just readjusted my calories—replacing carbs with protein and fat (from the flank) and trusting in the thermal effect of digesting protein to be my calorie deficit. I’ve never actually counted out the calories (I’ve never counted the actual calories in any of my diets—I know how much protein/fat/carbs is required to do what I want to do, so those are the units I use), but I expected my precontest diet to be a bigger drop in calories than my weight change showed.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I really wish you could see this post. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ei=0vDTXqiBLJS90PEPsp20wAg&q="I+got+a+request+to+talk+about+my+diet+back"&oq="I+got+a+request+to+talk+about+my+diet+back"&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzoHCAAQRxCwAzoFCCEQoAE6BQghEKsCUI0VWIUvYJ0xaAFwAHgAgAGLAYgB2QGSAQMxLjGYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwiosq2r197pAhWUHjQIHbIODYgQ4dUDCAw&uact=5

Because back then when he was turning himself from a heavyweight into a superheavyweight at the pinnacle of his size....he carb cycled and he took in a great deal of protein....in the 360-400 grams range if i remember correctly which is about 1.4 grams per lb. He has stayed at my house, we have trained together....him and Steve were eating massive amounts of food on their way up in size during those years in a dramatic way. He was/is a huge believer in carbohydrates (more so nowadays) I look at carbohydrates as the least important macro after protein and fats. A means to an end to gain weight if needed, to be full, for fuel etc...I will guarantee something.....because I didnt want to be one of these fools that dies at 44 years of age from massive drug usage from severe naivety and shortsightedness in their 20's and 30's, I used food as a means to accomplish what i personally wanted to accomplish...and I can guarantee that I am in the 99th percentile of eating the most carbohydrates on this board. I can absolutely guarantee that. To go from 137 to 303 I had to crush the white rice to do that. You can do it the drug way which looks awesome on the journey but noone has quite figured out how to live past 50 that way or you can do it the food way which is much less glorious (and I knew I personally needed to bulk up to 300lbs to create the leverage and strength I needed to handle huge weights for reps which created a great deal of muscle mass)...and I personally did that with large amounts of protein and large amounts of carbs. But I would rather overeat protein any day than overeat carbs. Again your bringing up an individual that I know very well in which the person your talking about took in a large amount of protein when he was at his absolute largest.

You know Dante, I may not agree with everything you say (though I agree with much of it), but you will forever be the #1 motivational poster on bodybuilding forums lol. The way you write just makes one want to drop what they're doing and go put everything into gaining as much size as possible.

 

[L2o9]

Atomic physics don't play into cellular metabolism and nutrition? I understand he's an engineer by trade, but a PhD in applied science is broad enough to be legitimate credentials.

Not specifically referring as Justin Harris as a valid source or not, but having a PhD in atomic physics is no relevant credential whatsoever for nutrition and metabolism.

 

[L2o9]

Dante , what is your opinion in what Justin said in the video about excess protein be converted to glucose.??
I know that gluconeogenesis does happen and we've heard back and forth that the body dose convert "all excess protein to glucose" then we've heard that it only converts enough to support the brain and liver with the just enough glucose they need and the rest is wasted out.
(I believe you are in the later group)

One way or the other do you know of any studies that have been done that prove one way or the other??

Not Dante but the notion of "excess" protein is wrong. Protein serves different functions and one of them can be energy by their carbon skeleton being directly oxidized without needing to be converted into glucose. It can also serve as a gluconeogenic substrate, but how much and to what extent depends on other factors, such as the hormonal environment (insulin-glucagon ratio, availability of exogenous glucose).

There is no "excess" protein; it can serve to build proteins (not only muscle proteins), hormones/signaling molecules, peptides, provide energy and serve as a growth signal per se.

Usually people have this idea that "excess" protein is that which exceeds the immediate muscle protein synthetic response, but this depends on the protein source and composition of the meal, and other factors which we still don't know (ie. whole eggs being better than egg whites, full fat milk better than skimmed milk plus added fat, etc).

 

[IronLion2]

Not specifically referring as Justin Harris as a valid source or not, but having a PhD in atomic physics is no relevant credential whatsoever for nutrition and metabolism.

Ok bud, I'll tell him he's not qualified to own one of the most successful nutrition consultation service out there. I'm sure he'll understand.

 

[L2o9]

Ok bud, I'll tell him he's not qualified to own one of the most successful nutrition consultation service out there. I'm sure he'll understand.

Please read more carefully. I'm not saying he is not qualified, I'm saying that he is not qualified BECAUSE he has a PhD in physics. He can be qualified with or without it; it doesn't add anything to his qualifications in nutrition.

 

[joos23]

I think it comes down to genetics. Some guy's can absorb more protein than others. We also got to remember, these mass monsters such as Ronnie, Jay, etc weighed 300lbs plus in the off season. So a 300lb guy eating 500g of protein is only 1.6g per pound of bw. So I honestly don't think it's that much.

 

[Swifto]

Please read more carefully. I'm not saying he is not qualified, I'm saying that he is not qualified BECAUSE he has a PhD in physics. He can be qualified with or without it; it doesn't add anything to his qualifications in nutrition.

What are your qualifications in nutrition?

 

[massnup]

Ronnie told me at an Expo in Springfield Missouri that he was eating 500 grams of protein per day and that was when he was weighing 315. So basically around 1.5 per pound of lean bodyweight and Dorian did that too.