Peps/GH + T3 = Bad, Peps/GH + T4 = good ?

[G.I.Bro]

I have seen this discussion several times now. I know many people use T4 when on peptides and GH, but that T3 is literally bad when using them is new to me.

See here for example:Is taking T3 with GH a good idea? You decide.

"We’re effectively shutting down the conversion pathway that is responsible for some of GH’s effects! And what would we be doing if we added in T4 instead of T3? You got it- we’d be enhancing the pathway by allowing the GH we’re using to have more T4 to convert to T3, thus giving us more of an effect from the GH we’re taking. Adding T4 into our GH cycles will actually allow more of the GH to be used effectively!

If you’ve been using GH without T4, you’ve been wasting half your money – and if you’ve been using it with T3, you’ve been wasting your time. Start using T4 with your GH, and you’ll finally be getting the full results from your investment."

T3 negates HGH anabolism
1: J Hepatol. 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9. Related Articles, Links


Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man.

Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen JO.

Department of Medicine M (Endocrinology and Diabetes), Aarhus University Hospital, Denmark.

BACKGROUND/AIMS: A decline in urea excretion is seen following long-term growth hormone administration, reflecting overall protein anabolism. Conversely, hyperthyroidism is characterized by increased urea synthesis and negative nitrogen metabolism. These seemingly opposite effects are presumed to reflect different actions on peripheral protein metabolism. The extent to which these hormonal systems have different direct effects on hepatic urea genesis has not been fully characterized. METHODS: We measured urea nitrogen synthesis rates and blood alanine levels concomitantly before, during, and after a 4-h constant intravenous infusion of alanine (2 mmol.kg bw-1.h-1). Urea nitrogen synthesis rate was estimated hourly as urinary excretion corrected for gut hydrolysis and accumulation in body water. The slope of the linear relationship between urea nitrogen synthesis rate and alanine concentration represents the liver function as to conversion of amino-N, and is denoted the functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. Eight normal male subjects (age 21-27 years; body mass index 22.4-27.0 kg/m2) were randomly studied four times: 1) after 10 days of subcutaneous saline injections, 2) after 10 days of subcutaneous growth hormone injections (0.1 IU/kg per day), 3) after 10 days of triiodothyronine administration (40 micrograms on even dates, 20 micrograms on uneven dates) and 4) after 10 days given 2)+3). All injections were given at 20 00 h. RESULTS: Growth hormone decreased functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (l/h) by 30% (from 33.8 +/- 3.2 l/h (control) to 23.8 +/- 1.5 l/h (10 days growth hormone) (mean +/- SE) (ANOVA; p < 0.01)). Triiodothyronine did not change functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (36.7 +/- 3.2 l/h), but triiodothyronine given together with growth hormone abolished the effect of growth hormone functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (38.8 +/- 4.8 l/h). CONCLUSIONS: The results show that long-term growth hormone administration acts on liver by decreasing functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, thereby retaining amino-N in the body. Triiodothyronine has no effect on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, but given together with growth hormone, it abolishes the effect of growth hormone on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. A possible mechanism is the known effect of thyroid hormones in reducing the bioavailability of insulin-like growth factor-I. Thus, the effects of growth hormone and triiodothyronine on amino-N homeostasis are interdependent and to some extent exerted via interplay in their regulation of liver function as to amino-N conversion.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 8778198 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Now, my question is, how many of you gh/peptide gurus out there believe this? Should we cycle off T3 when using gh/peptides and only use T4? If so, how much T4? Im on T3 now (with Triblend as my AAS) and I thought I might switch over to T4/7-keto while I play with these new peptides. Thoughts?

 

[G.I.Bro]

Bump! Cmon, nobody can weigh in on this?

 

[Gottagetit]

I find taking t4 with hgh is a perfect combo, helps keep me lean, however if i take t4 w.o hgh i loose more muscle then id like...i am dosing 150 split 75/am 75/pm now with 6iu hgh and results speak for themselves, im very happy

 

[G.I.Bro]

Man nobody on this? So is T3 on gh/peps counterproductive? T4 only?

 

[G.I.Bro]

Fuck it, based on limited information I've found I should cycle off the t3 when on peps or gh and used t4.

I'll probably stack the T4 with some 7 - keto. Any recommendations on T4 dosage, I never use it.

 

[mg1228]

1.06mcg per kg is a replacement dose

with gh i would use t4....with peptides i dont think u need it (unless u need it already)....do bloodwork to know for sure

 

[G.I.Bro]

1.06mcg per kg is a replacement dose

with gh i would use t4....with peptides i dont think u need it (unless u need it already)....do bloodwork to know for sure

Appreciate the reply. Why the differentiation between gh and peps?

 

[Cerberus777]

I just stay on 50mcg t3. Never have a problem.

 

[mg1228]

Appreciate the reply. Why the differentiation between gh and peps?

gh will significantly raise gh serum for 7 hrs...gh peps will not

 

[G.I.Bro]

gh will significantly raise gh serum for 7 hrs...gh peps will not

Right, but that is not really the issue mentioned in my first post. If the author is to be believed, t3 would hinder the body's use of the small amounts of gh released by peps (compared to gh). So it would seem almost more important with peptides than gh because you're talking about less serum gh overall and a much smaller Window of time.

Where are the god damn reps when I need them.

 

[mg1228]

gh will up regulate the conversion of t4 to t3....the longer and higher the gh serum the more conversion....your own production of t4 should be able to keep up with the short pulses produced by peps....

i did bloodwork to prove it

 

[G.I.Bro]

gh will up regulate the conversion of t4 to t3....the longer and higher the gh serum the more conversion....your own production of t4 should be able to keep up with the short pulses produced by peps....

i did bloodwork to prove it

Awesome, I appreciate the knowledge/experience. So at 25-50mcg of T3, I am not reducing or hindering the benefits of researching cjc/ipam & frag? Some posts I see (like the one in my OP above) imply T3 reduces the body's use of any serum gh be it from exogenous gh or peptide use. Flat out, the representation is that t3 use with gh/peps is a waste and t4 should be used.

 

[mg1228]

Awesome, I appreciate the knowledge/experience. So at 25-50mcg of T3, I am not reducing or hindering the benefits of researching cjc/ipam & frag? Some posts I see (like the one in my OP above) imply T3 reduces the body's use of any serum gh be it from exogenous gh or peptide use. Flat out, the representation is that t3 use with gh/peps is a waste and t4 should be used.

i would worry more about your own thyroid production rather than hindering the effects of peps...25mcg is basically a replacement dose so your probably shutting yourself down...although the thyroid is very resilient but also regulates about everthing in your body

take t4 with gh....t4 or t3 or nothing with peps....and do BW every now and then

 

[G.I.Bro]

i would worry more about your own thyroid production rather than hindering the effects of peps...25mcg is basically a replacement dose so your probably shutting yourself down...although the thyroid is very resilient but also regulates about everthing in your body

take t4 with gh....t4 or t3 or nothing with peps....and do BW every now and then

Two questions:

1) If I'm dosing my research rat with 1000mcg/day of FRAG, do you guys think it would be best to administer all 1mg at A.M. with fasted cardio (and fast after) OR 500mcg A.M and then 500 again pre sleep? CM has recommended a minimum 1mg dose for max results doing research projects. But I'm wondering is splitting it could be more effective.

2) So mg1228, it sounds like because the GH pulse with peps is so short lived, you dont feel it matters much if we're using T3 or T4. However, with GH, the serum gh is elevated for a longer period of time making T3 reduce the body's utilization of the actual GH. Following this logic, wouldnt T3 use theoretically make the small, short Pulses of GH from peps less effective too? Does anyone think the co-administration of T3 would hinder the effectiveness of the gh pulses created by peptide administration? I mean, I see what you're saying about serum levels on actual gh nd all. But if T3 makes GH less effective, wouldn't it logically follow that it makes the GH pulses from peptides less effective too? I mean the target elevation in both cases is GH. It's just much shorter with peptides. It almost seems that would make T3 even MORE detrimental. Anyone else on this?