Please help with 1st cycle.

[ct4ap]

Hello more experienced users,
I have been lifting for 12 years natural, always with a good diet and I gathered over all these years good experience with training, diets, and steroids (never took but read lots about).
I'm 27 years old, 90Kg, 1,81m.
I always wanted to go "legal" so I tried many pro-hormones and I noticed that my body gets shut down quite easily!! Had no sex drive at all many times (whilst taking M1T) and bloating from them all.
So I decided being more open minded and start a real cycle with good PCT and keep gains on the safe way.
I'm not very keen on orals so my first cycle will be:

Week 1-8: Test E 250mg twice a week
Week 1-12: Nolvadex 20mg every day
Week 3 and 6 only: HCG
Week 8 (or 9) only: Proviron 50/25mg every day (for sex drive recovery)

- What do you guys think? (I know it's a lot of PCT but I have the feeling that boosting test will shut me down/lower natural production as it happened before with silly pro-hormones)
- I thought 500mg a week of Test E could be too much for a start so should I do 250mg a week for the 8 weeks or at least start with 250mg then jump to 500mg?
- Should I add Clomid at any point?
- What dosage of HCG should I use?
- I've read on different books of first cycles with Deca and Test E (mostly with Test E). In your opinion, is Test E the best one for a 1st cycle or I should change to 200mg weekly of Deca? Or Deca should be used on a 2nd cycle in addition do Test E (which I should do next time)?

Thanks a lot and I wish you all good growth!

 

[gordo14]

By no means an expert......

I would start with 250 mg test per week. The HCG looks good don't do the whole 5000 ius at once though. most people prefer to use the hcg at 250 to 500 ius twice a week through out the cycle to keep there boys awake. I would add clomid into the pct. 100mg first week 50 mg second week, 50 mg third week. This is just my opinion. Most people find that they will have great results on a low dose of test, especially since it is your first cycle. No need to stack any other compounds, only add deca if you stop making gains with the test after a few cycles. Also if you don't want to be extremly sex drive less, then never run deca on its own always use test as the foundation of your cycle. Just my opinion.
Also this should be in the begginer forum.

 

[tatteredxangelx]

Makes me so happy to see somebody starting with the correct dosage!!!

Run it 10-12 weeks though, 8 is too short ...

 

[gettnlarge]

Have exp with a few cycles in the past and 500 test(e, cyp-no matter) is the best starter cycle for the first 2 cycles. When you start to notice you are not getting as much out of it anymore, move into something new. When this happens, a small dose of deca (i.e. 200-300 mg can add a good amount of size for a noob) with your test. Never exceed the test dosage with deca or you may get the ever-revered ED. Take your time, your liver and kidneys will like you better. Start stacking only after you have gotten use to most of the side effects of the gear. There is a learning curve to gear. Noob's high dosing on the first few cycles like a pro either end up losing their gains or earlier visits to the doctor. Follow Big A's growth principles, they are laid out specifically for this. Diet is key, so if you have that in the hole, you're ahead of the game! Search the threads, search some more, and then learn before you inject something you don't know much about. Make sure you have PCT or nolva like Alex said. Be careful using HCG also. Look this stuff up on here. There are loads of threads about anything you would have to ask bro. I agree with tattered about length also. Cheers!
GL

 

[msforr75]

First Cycle

Week 1-12: Test 250mg/w
Week 1-12: HCG 300mcg/e3d
Week 16-18: Clomid 50mg/d
Week 19-30: OFF

 

[ct4ap]

Excellents guys I'm now making some modifications to my cycle, thanks a lot!!

 

[Stheman]

I would say run 250mg of test for 10-12 weeks. As for the Hcg don't see the since in running till PCT since your only taking one compound at a low dose.

 

[6.8SPC]

As for the Hcg don't see the sense in running till PCT since your only taking one compound at a low dose.

HCG is much better for use during the cycle in small pulses (250-500 iu 2x per week) to keep the testes from taking a long nap (Rumple Ball-skin, lol). HCG increases estrogen enough for it to interfere with recovery post-cycle. If you have any doubts about the validity of this, do a search for "Swale's HCG protocol" on this board and you will see a more in depth explanation from a noted endocrinologist. HCG is definitely more effective when employed during the cycle.

 

[ct4ap]

HCG is much better for use during the cycle in small pulses (250-500 iu 2x per week) to keep the testes from taking a long nap (Rumple Ball-skin, lol). HCG increases estrogen enough for it to interfere with recovery post-cycle. If you have any doubts about the validity of this, do a search for "Swale's HCG protocol" on this board and you will see a more in depth explanation from a noted endocrinologist. HCG is definitely more effective when employed during the cycle.

Thanks a lot everyone and 6.8SPC thanks for reminding me "if test goes up either natural or synthetic, estrogen goes up too" so HCG will be kept for mid cycle only.

So cycle is now more or less like this:
WK1-8 250mg test
WK1-9 10/20mg nolva
WK9-12 50/25mg clomid
WK6-9 Proviron 25mg
WK2-5/6 HCG 250ui 2x/wk

Points for being like this:
- HCG will only start on wk 2 as this is when natural test start major decrease.
- 10mg of nolva only on first and last week as 1st wk estrogen is not too high and last week because stopping from 20mg to nothing causes shock, so on the last week nolva is decreased from 20mg to 10mg but clomid is starting so PCT keeps running with no shocks. Clomid dosage will be 25 50 25 or 50 50 25.
- Proviron does increase little test so it will be used on the three weeks termitating test so it also normalise sexual function if I had any problems and adds some hardening to the body.
- No HCG or Proviron during PCT as they would interfer with estrogen normalization.
- 12 week off after this cycle.

Well I think my cycle is more or less finished. I think it's a good start and I've (we've) built a good PCT base which won't cause me frustation and I dont really need to calculate it all over again as this PCT profile can be used to many cycles in future (probably with a few different dosages).

Next cycle should be very much the same as this one but extended to ten weeks of 250mg test + 200mg Deca, 5wks PCT.

Thanks so much you all.

 

[WildBB]

Question?

Thanks a lot everyone and 6.8SPC thanks for reminding me "if test goes up either natural or synthetic, estrogen goes up too" so HCG will be kept for mid cycle only.

So cycle is now more or less like this:
WK1-8 250mg test
WK1-9 10/20mg nolva
WK9-12 50/25mg clomid
WK6-9 Proviron 25mg
WK2-5/6 HCG 250ui 2x/wk

Points for being like this:
- HCG will only start on wk 2 as this is when natural test start major decrease.
- 10mg of nolva only on first and last week as 1st wk estrogen is not too high and last week because stopping from 20mg to nothing causes shock, so on the last week nolva is decreased from 20mg to 10mg but clomid is starting so PCT keeps running with no shocks. Clomid dosage will be 25 50 25 or 50 50 25.
- Proviron does increase little test so it will be used on the three weeks termitating test so it also normalise sexual function if I had any problems and adds some hardening to the body.
- No HCG or Proviron during PCT as they would interfer with estrogen normalization.
- 12 week off after this cycle.

Well I think my cycle is more or less finished. I think it's a good start and I've (we've) built a good PCT base which won't cause me frustation and I dont really need to calculate it all over again as this PCT profile can be used to many cycles in future (probably with a few different dosages).

Next cycle should be very much the same as this one but extended to ten weeks of 250mg test + 200mg Deca, 5wks PCT.

Thanks so much you all.

So why do you want to take Proviron for your 1st cycle...I don't see the need? Info on Proviron: http://www.steroid.com/Proviron.php

I would do this cycle for your 1st:
WK1-10 250mg test
WK13-16 HCG 500ui 2x/wk
WK16-20 20mg nolva ED

I would leave the HCG 3 weeks from last test shot and use it during those 3 weeks.

Most of us would agree that Test only cycle the first time around is the best. You need to learn how your body responds to these compounds.

That is just my option; don’t take my word for it. Everyone has different views on this.

Post Cycle 'Therapy' (PCT) is very individual and should be approached from an educated and cautious standpoint.

WildBB

 

[ct4ap]

So why do you want to take Proviron for your 1st cycle...I don't see the need? Info on Proviron: http://www.steroid.com/Proviron.php

I would do this cycle for your 1st:
WK1-10 250mg test
WK13-16 HCG 500ui 2x/wk
WK16-20 20mg nolva ED

I would leave the HCG 3 weeks from last test shot and use it during those 3 weeks.

Most of us would agree that Test only cycle the first time around is the best. You need to learn how your body responds to these compounds.

That is just my option; don’t take my word for it. Everyone has different views on this.

Post Cycle 'Therapy' (PCT) is very individual and should be approached from an educated and cautious standpoint.

WildBB

Hey WildBB thanks for answer and it sounds that yr body is strong against estrogen but I tell you, mine isn't.
Proviron as it says on the link you sent to me, avoids other steroids to convert to estrogen (which should be helpfull as there will be lots of estrogen being converted from many weeks of Test E then HCG), and it also produces some test which relieves the shock from 250mg weekly of test to nothing at all. So on week 8/9 intead of no external test at all coming in, I still have some test/andro effects from Proviron, causing a smooth decrease to normalization.
I do need Nolva from beginning as when test increases estrogen also increases.
I prefer running HCG mid cycle only (as said before by 6.8SPC) as it also increases estrogen so not good idea for me at the end of PCT when im trying to normalize estrogen.
So, Nolva will prevent estrogen receptors to take any estros from beginning of cycle, and proviron will avoid excessive estrogen convertion (cumulated from beginning of cycle till wk 6), HCG will keep body producing natural test and Clomid normalizes it all at the end.
As you said PCT is very personal but I personally believe that I have to take it very serious as crappy compounds got me shut down before and I still lack on sex drive. So I created my own term "DPCT" (During and Post Cycle Therapy) lol
This is a good thread for all beginners and even pros! lol
Cheers mate, have good growth.

 

[WildBB]

Hey WildBB thanks for answer and it sounds that yr body is strong against estrogen but I tell you, mine isn't.
Proviron as it says on the link you sent to me, avoids other steroids to convert to estrogen (which should be helpfull as there will be lots of estrogen being converted from many weeks of Test E then HCG), and it also produces some test which relieves the shock from 250mg weekly of test to nothing at all. So on week 8/9 intead of no external test at all coming in, I still have some test/andro effects from Proviron, causing a smooth decrease to normalization.
I do need Nolva from beginning as when test increases estrogen also increases.
I prefer running HCG mid cycle only (as said before by 6.8SPC) as it also increases estrogen so not good idea for me at the end of PCT when im trying to normalize estrogen.
So, Nolva will prevent estrogen receptors to take any estros from beginning of cycle, and proviron will avoid excessive estrogen convertion (cumulated from beginning of cycle till wk 6), HCG will keep body producing natural test and Clomid normalizes it all at the end.
As you said PCT is very personal but I personally believe that I have to take it very serious as crappy compounds got me shut down before and I still lack on sex drive. So I created my own term "DPCT" (During and Post Cycle Therapy) lol
This is a good thread for all beginners and even pros! lol
Cheers mate, have good growth.

So, what is your cycle history again? Which of these products have taken before? I thought you said this was your 1st AAS cycle?

Please list your previous PH cycles and what PCT you did for those.

Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like you already had your mind set on what you planned to do before you started this thread.

WildBB

 

[ct4ap]

So, what is your cycle history again? Which of these products have taken before? I thought you said this was your 1st AAS cycle?

Please list your previous PH cycles and what PCT you did for those.

Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like you already had your mind set on what you planned to do before you started this thread.

WildBB

Well, shamefully, all the magazines crap such as 19-nor, Andro, M1T, Hyperdrol... and PCT, well, the mags crap again (still all chemicals) such as 6-OXO, Novedex, Tribulus, Keto...

I did some research before posting this thread on some books but wanted to make sure I wasn't making any mistakes, and I was! So, as you can see, there was some slight modifications on my cycle. Im still reading about it all and I'll place the AS order in about 2 weeks time so I need to know what It'll be exactly.

And after your answer and your link (very helpfull, if you have more info links please post) I made a change on Proviron as the link afirms it prevents Test to convert to estrogen so thanks to you I'm more clued up on Proviron.
And, after all, my cycle seems to be even more ready now.

WK1-8 250mg/WK Test E
WK1-9 20mg ED Nolvadex (10mg ED on weeks 1 and 9)
WK9-12 50mg ED Clomid (25mg ED on week 12)
WK2-8 25mg ED Proviron
WK2-6 250iu 2x/WK HCG

Cheers guys!

 

[WildBB]

Well, shamefully, all the magazines crap such as 19-nor, Andro, M1T, Hyperdrol... and PCT, well, the mags crap again (still all chemicals) such as 6-OXO, Novedex, Tribulus, Keto...

I did some research before posting this thread on some books but wanted to make sure I wasn't making any mistakes, and I was! So, as you can see, there was some slight modifications on my cycle. Im still reading about it all and I'll place the AS order in about 2 weeks time so I need to know what It'll be exactly.

And after your answer and your link (very helpfull, if you have more info links please post) I made a change on Proviron as the link afirms it prevents Test to convert to estrogen so thanks to you I'm more clued up on Proviron.
And, after all, my cycle seems to be even more ready now.

WK1-8 250mg/WK Test E
WK1-9 20mg ED Nolvadex (10mg ED on weeks 1 and 9)
WK9-12 50mg ED Clomid (25mg ED on week 12)
WK2-8 25mg ED Proviron
WK2-6 250iu 2x/WK HCG

Cheers guys!

Don't let your experiences in PH's to predict your responses to AAS. Think of this as a clean slate; learn from those with experience in this.

Most real PH's are steroids. 6-OXO, Novedex, Tribulus will not do for PCT. You would have needed Clomid or Nolva. That was probably one of your problems in the past related to estrogen control post cycle.

Anyway, hope the best for you bro...

WildBB

 

[ct4ap]

Don't let your experiences in PH's to predict your responses to AAS. Think of this as a clean slate; learn from those with experience in this.

Most real PH's are steroids. 6-OXO, Novedex, Tribulus will not do for PCT. You would have needed Clomid or Nolva. That was probably one of your problems in the past related to estrogen control post cycle.

Anyway, hope the best for you bro...

WildBB

Hey matey thanks for answer again.

I know exacly what you mean:
"This newbee geezer never even touched Deca 50 in life and he's already adding 4 drugs to a tiny beginners 250mg/8wk Test E cycle... a bit too many plasters for a little scratch"

And I sort of agree, I'm contantly receiving emails from other users and other forums and I'm def thinking of dropping some of this PCT off (specially proviron) as 250mg Test E should not cause extreme harm. Still, a few weeks for the order so by then I should be at least a bit better. Course starts 12th October.

Thanks WildBB, what I look for here is ppl like you; willing to help, concerned with my issues and who reflect past experiences.
Peace.

 

[Designbuilt]

Hey WildBB thanks for answer and it sounds that yr body is strong against estrogen but I tell you, mine isn't.
Proviron as it says on the link you sent to me, avoids other steroids to convert to estrogen (which should be helpfull as there will be lots of estrogen being converted from many weeks of Test E then HCG), and it also produces some test which relieves the shock from 250mg weekly of test to nothing at all. So on week 8/9 intead of no external test at all coming in, I still have some test/andro effects from Proviron, causing a smooth decrease to normalization.
I do need Nolva from beginning as when test increases estrogen also increases.
I prefer running HCG mid cycle only (as said before by 6.8SPC) as it also increases estrogen so not good idea for me at the end of PCT when im trying to normalize estrogen.
So, Nolva will prevent estrogen receptors to take any estros from beginning of cycle, and proviron will avoid excessive estrogen convertion (cumulated from beginning of cycle till wk 6), HCG will keep body producing natural test and Clomid normalizes it all at the end.
As you said PCT is very personal but I personally believe that I have to take it very serious as crappy compounds got me shut down before and I still lack on sex drive. So I created my own term "DPCT" (During and Post Cycle Therapy) lol
This is a good thread for all beginners and even pros! lol
Cheers mate, have good growth.

How do you know that when test increases, estrogen does as well? Are you making that assumption because of those pro-hormones?

Keep in mind that Estrogen and Testosterone look very similar chemically and the body sometimes confuses the two, furthermore, sometimes these prohormones, seem to convert to estrogen more then anything else.
Just about everyone that I know who has taken these compounds developed some gyno and gained nothing but water weight.


Testosterone can cause gyno, but that is a result of the body confusing the two, and the compound unlocking some of the receptors in the breast tissue. Nolvadex or Tamoxifen Citrate was developed to combat breast cancer by competing at the receptor sites in the breast tissues. So I suppose that you could say that it sort of blocks the action.

Where as other compounds are more Anti-aromitase, which means that it prevents the anabolics from converting in the first place. Personally I really don't care for Nolvadex too much, I took it when I was living in Mexico, it was the most expensive thing there, and I still had water retention and gyno. Proviron is better in my opinion.


I've never taken it here, nor do I even look for it. Furthermore, IMO you should go a little higher then 250 mg. I would peak to maybe 500 then come back down or stop, because 250 is about what the body makes anyway, so why bother?

Furthermore, I agree with the previous advice it is better to go with smaller doses of HCG Sub-q, maybe 250-500 units 3X's/week to keep your nutty buddies in tact.

As others on this board have said keep doing research, what I say is not to be construed as medical advice, I am not a doctor, nor do I play one on television, nor am I giving medical advice, but I am simply telling you what I have done, and would do. Good luck.

 

[WildBB]

I've never taken it here, nor do I even look for it. Furthermore, IMO you should go a little higher then 250 mg. I would peak to maybe 500 then come back down or stop, because 250 is about what the body makes anyway, so why bother?

GET REAL DUDE!

Test levels in male body is normally from low 200 ng/dl to 1200 ng/dl. 250mg of test is a HUGE increase from NORMAL levels.

Trust Me... 250mg a week is a good place to be =)


WildBB

 

[Designbuilt]

GET REAL DUDE!

Test levels in male body is normally from low 200 ng/dl to 1200 ng/dl. 250mg of test is a HUGE increase from NORMAL levels.

Trust Me... 250mg a week is a good place to be =)


WildBB

Right you are, Normal levels are about 7mg./day roughly, so aprox. 50mg/week. So 250 would be about 5 X's that amount, it is a good starting range. I was in the middle of something else and screwed that up. So disregard that previous statement.

However, for hormone replacement therapy usually doses about 5X's the amount are given or at least effective. That's why test enathate comes in 200mg/ml. A test injection may look fine and dandy on paper, but you know damn well that once it's injected the body may destroy some of the hormone, some may be confused for estrogen, and it just doesn't work as well or efficiently as the hormones that our own body makes. Low natural test levels can cause gyno as can other things, but you never really hear of someone getting gyno because their own body confused the test for estrogen. With that in mind...

I personally didn't see any significant changes until I went up to 500mg/week. If it is someones first cycle, they should probably stick with 250mg/week, until it stops working.

But as was said before, when you're staring out with this stuff, it's best to figure out what works and what doesn't and doing one compound at a time, is the best way to do that.

The reason the pros take so much, is because they have to, since their body is used to it, increasing doses and adding compounds is the only way to gain for most of them.

 

[6.8SPC]

Right you are, Normal levels are about 7mg./day roughly, so aprox. 50mg/week. So 250 would be about 5 X's that amount, it is a good starting range. I was in the middle of something else and screwed that up. So disregard that previous statement.

However, for hormone replacement therapy usually doses about 5X's the amount are given or at least effective. That's why test enathate comes in 200mg/ml. A test injection may look fine and dandy on paper, but you know damn well that once it's injected the body may destroy some of the hormone, some may be confused for estrogen, and it just doesn't work as well or efficiently as the hormones that our own body makes. Low natural test levels can cause gyno as can other things, but you never really hear of someone getting gyno because their own body confused the test for estrogen. With that in mind...

I personally didn't see any significant changes until I went up to 500mg/week. If it is someones first cycle, they should probably stick with 250mg/week, until it stops working.

But as was said before, when you're staring out with this stuff, it's best to figure out what works and what doesn't and doing one compound at a time, is the best way to do that.

The reason the pros take so much, is because they have to, since their body is used to it, increasing doses and adding compounds is the only way to gain for most of them.

Ask any of the several members here who are on doctor prescribed HRT and they will tell you that what you are saying about clinical dosages is incorrect. Go get blood work done on 250 mg of testosterone every week and tell me where your levels are at! 250mg a week is a LOT. Add in proviron, which frees up even more test from its bound state and slightly decreases estrogen conversion and you have an extremely effective cycle provided adequate nutrition is consumed. Oh and you lost me with the "that's why the pros take so much" statement. What does that assumption have to do with someone taking their first course of AAS? I think anyone here, myself included, would tell ct4ap that his plan is a sound one because it is. It will provide a nice increase in muscle mass with little to no side effects and minimal health risks. Isn't that what we should all be aiming for, especially since were not 'pros'? Cheers.

 

[ct4ap]

Ask any of the several members here who are on doctor prescribed HRT and they will tell you that what you are saying about clinical dosages is incorrect. Go get blood work done on 250 mg of testosterone every week and tell me where your levels are at! 250mg a week is a LOT. Add in proviron, which frees up even more test from its bound state and slightly decreases estrogen conversion and you have an extremely effective cycle provided adequate nutrition is consumed. Oh and you lost me with the "that's why the pros take so much" statement. What does that assumption have to do with someone taking their first course of AAS? I think anyone here, myself included, would tell ct4ap that his plan is a sound one because it is. It will provide a nice increase in muscle mass with little to no side effects and minimal health risks. Isn't that what we should all be aiming for, especially since were not 'pros'? Cheers.

Designbuilt, 6.8SPC and WildBB, know that I memorize every line you guys write in order to get my cycle right. My aims BEFORE gains are safety, gains keeping and low sides and thaks for complimenting my cycle sound 6.8SPC althought WildBB opened my eyes to mixing too many drugs at once on a first cycle.

My cycle pros:
- Sane (by starting with low dosages)
- Lowest dosages on all drugs (250mg test, 10/20mg nolva, 25mg Prov, 50/25mg clomid, 250ui HCG)
- As they are all low, it'll be easy to drop any drug off if needed (because of funny side effects)
- Short (8 wks main compound for not stressing body too much on first time)

Cycle Cons:
- Perhaps double the money because of a lot of PCT and support drugs.
- The mixing of 5 drugs on a first cycle.
- (Maybe) assuming that my body will react to Test even before cycle starts and not allowing it to receive Test on it's own to check what's the real deal.

Well doing all this research I (we) find that there's no perfect cycle but we can make it almost perfect.
I'm really not concerned about money spent or higher dosages now, I want lower sides, good results that I can keep and a feel good experience so I can build my next cycle with motivation.

Thanks again guys.