Possible alternative to spinal fusion surgery?

[gotgame]

How long would you hold off taking the hgh? Would a low dosage be ok? In any injury or surgery hgh is increased. I found this out first hand when I had a shoulder surgery in 2007. Was taking 2iu hgh and IgF1 went up over 500.

Is there a reason your looking to take gh? The recovery from your min invasive shouldn't be much. If u really wanna take it I'd wait at least 3 weeks until some sort of remodeling occurs but I don't see much benefit to taking gh in this situation and it might make things worse in theory.

Gh can help many other injuries and your body naturally increases response to gh in times if injiry.

 

[Cobraman]

I understand all you have stated. Am taking the hgh to speed healing and have been taking 2iu for years. Am 50 years old and just want to recover as quickly as possible. Thanks for your responses.

 

[IdahoRally]

L5-S1 is the number one most common problem area of the spine. I myself had a T10-12 fusion in my high school days, and it has never given me any issue. I have however worked at a pain injection clinic for over a year, and I must say the amount of relief from ESI treatments I see in the patients is astonishing.

 

[scrray]

I was wondering the same. Of course recovery time is case by case, but I also have gone through fusion three weeks ago. L-4 to S1. Is there Anything to speed Recovery we can do aside from diet & PT

 

[dragonfire101]

L5-S1 is the number one most common problem area of the spine. I myself had a T10-12 fusion in my high school days, and it has never given me any issue. I have however worked at a pain injection clinic for over a year, and I must say the amount of relief from ESI treatments I see in the patients is astonishing.

you had a thoracic fusion? how that happen thats uncommon.

 

[Cobraman]

Update post surgery--
Was healing ok after surgery on July 2. On August 2, woke up in the middle of the night with intense pain and numbness in right leg. Contacted surgeon and put me on narcotics and Neurontin. Also sent me to the pain clinic at hospital for cortisone injections. Was not keen on doing the injections, but I thought initially that pain was from adhesion in back post-surgery. Also, was unable to walk for 3 weeks and was unable to work for 1 week. Was seeing patients in a wheelchair(that was fun) after the 1 week layoff.

Had injections done and they did nothing. I immediately thought that perhaps pain not coming from back, but from hip. Scheduled an appt with excellent physical therapist in town for eval. He determined that issue not from back, but from hip. Since I have been experiencing back and leg spasms for months I can only figure that I had a bad leg spasm in my sleep that did not let up and it tore either a tendon or ligament in my hip. Pain pattern had localized to lower glute, hamstring area, and heel, bypassing the calf. This referral pattern corresponded to the sacrospinous ligament in the hip.

Saw prolotherapy doc and he confirmed what I thought and treated the offending ligament. As soon as he put in the local anesthetic, pain went away.

Hip is slowly getting better. Would get better sooner if spasms went away. I am hopeful they will soon. I can now flex my big toe completely, when I could not presurgery. Surgeon feels I should recover in one year. Hopefully this is true.

 

[Jacky McSwole]

I'm 32 now but when I was 16 i had bad scoliosis, I had seven vertibre fused, I have two rods and 14 screws in my spine, as well as a chunk missing from my hip. Surgery was done at Stanford with a top doctor. I started weightlifting seriously when I was 25. I can deadlift 565 on a good day, more if I used straps. I'd recommend taking some tb500, bpc157, ostarine and hgh during recovery, that should make you heal like a teenager.

 

[crustykid]

when i turned 35 the fusion surgery was much more painful

 

[weights426344]

Hello to all of you. I am new to this site but I do have a lot of information and first hand experience to off on this subject.

I had herniated disks from L2-S2, and crushed L5s1 disk, Cuada Equina Syndrome from the compression on the spinal cord as well. And I am also having surgery next month on C5/6 for herniated disks at those locations as well. Laminectomy was performed at all levels and a fusion at L5s1. There was complete motor and sensory nerve damage in my right hip and right leg that still hasn't healed/recovered due to how long I had to wait for the surgery to be performed (thanks w/c). Recovery from a neurological stand point has been rough. But the fusion was quite successful.

In my experience I would say the survival option is definitely a last resort. Some have had much success with pain therapy, physical therapy, and chiropractic therapy and adjustments. Surgery at my level of injury was something that was medically necessary due to the nerve damage that had happened.

If anyone has any questions or concerns about what to do please feel free to ask any questions ok.

 

[weights426344]

Is there a reason your looking to take gh? The recovery from your min invasive shouldn't be much. If u really wanna take it I'd wait at least 3 weeks until some sort of remodeling occurs but I don't see much benefit to taking gh in this situation and it might make things worse in theory.

Gh can help many other injuries and your body naturally increases response to gh in times if injiry.

I wanted to comment on this a little bit...
I've gone through quite a few surgeries in the past few years...and I still have a few more to go...from my experience and from what my surgeons and neurologists have advised me...it's always wise to come off anything...hgh...regular cycles...tides...regardless of what you're doing everyone reacts differently to anesthesiology. And from my knowledge there are not a lot of clinical studies done on the effects of staying on hgh or other cycled products while going under for surgery. Up until recently my surgeons and doctors (who are team physicians in my state for nfl, nba, and mlb clubs) have all advised me on what they advise others including athletes of what to do and what not to do in regards to these things. My knee surgeon is a personal friend of many years of mine. I was very fortunate to have his help in getting to discuss these things with my spine surgeons. I do believe you're correct that the body responds to surgery and injury by increasing its own levels/hormonal secretions. I was advised to come off of everything including hgh for at least 3 weeks post op. I had my blood levels checked twice post up as well as once pre op. I stopped my hgh use the week of surgery and everything else 6 weeks prior. I did a small pct run for a few weeks prior to surgery but nothing too serious. On the three week mark my blood levels were pretty balanced and I was advised them to start back on hgh on a smaller level and I was even told to take MGF (which was given to me by a friend of the knee surgeon). I was only advised to take it twice daily at first for the first week and then up to three times daily after that until the surgical wound was fully healed. Now I have an 11.5 inch scar running the span of most of my lumbar spine. The entire surgical wound and the fusion and bone graphing at L5s1 were completely healed and fused at 10.5 weeks post op according to X-rays and MRI films. Originally I was given an estimate of 3-6 months for everything to be strong enough and healed before I could begin basic activities due to the nature of my injuries. I don't know for certain how big of a role the peptide and hgh played in my recovery but I will say that it did speed things up. I slept quite a bit more after going back on hgh post op and this was my first time ever taking peptides also. As I have discussed early I have two more surgeries pending as of now...a medial meniscus replacement and a cervical laminectomy at L5/L6 and I've been advised to follow similar post op protocols for each. Hope this helps.

 

[Cobraman]

Hello to all of you. I am new to this site but I do have a lot of information and first hand experience to off on this subject.

I had herniated disks from L2-S2, and crushed L5s1 disk, Cuada Equina Syndrome from the compression on the spinal cord as well. And I am also having surgery next month on C5/6 for herniated disks at those locations as well. Laminectomy was performed at all levels and a fusion at L5s1. There was complete motor and sensory nerve damage in my right hip and right leg that still hasn't healed/recovered due to how long I had to wait for the surgery to be performed (thanks w/c). Recovery from a neurological stand point has been rough. But the fusion was quite successful.

In my experience I would say the survival option is definitely a last resort. Some have had much success with pain therapy, physical therapy, and chiropractic therapy and adjustments. Surgery at my level of injury was something that was medically necessary due to the nerve damage that had happened.

If anyone has any questions or concerns about what to do please feel free to ask any questions ok.

Thanks for the input. How long ago was your fusion and how long until you started to get back any of the neurological deficit?

 

[Cobraman]

I wanted to comment on this a little bit...
I've gone through quite a few surgeries in the past few years...and I still have a few more to go...from my experience and from what my surgeons and neurologists have advised me...it's always wise to come off anything...hgh...regular cycles...tides...regardless of what you're doing everyone reacts differently to anesthesiology. And from my knowledge there are not a lot of clinical studies done on the effects of staying on hgh or other cycled products while going under for surgery. Up until recently my surgeons and doctors (who are team physicians in my state for nfl, nba, and mlb clubs) have all advised me on what they advise others including athletes of what to do and what not to do in regards to these things. My knee surgeon is a personal friend of many years of mine. I was very fortunate to have his help in getting to discuss these things with my spine surgeons. I do believe you're correct that the body responds to surgery and injury by increasing its own levels/hormonal secretions. I was advised to come off of everything including hgh for at least 3 weeks post op. I had my blood levels checked twice post up as well as once pre op. I stopped my hgh use the week of surgery and everything else 6 weeks prior. I did a small pct run for a few weeks prior to surgery but nothing too serious. On the three week mark my blood levels were pretty balanced and I was advised them to start back on hgh on a smaller level and I was even told to take MGF (which was given to me by a friend of the knee surgeon). I was only advised to take it twice daily at first for the first week and then up to three times daily after that until the surgical wound was fully healed. Now I have an 11.5 inch scar running the span of most of my lumbar spine. The entire surgical wound and the fusion and bone graphing at L5s1 were completely healed and fused at 10.5 weeks post op according to X-rays and MRI films. Originally I was given an estimate of 3-6 months for everything to be strong enough and healed before I could begin basic activities due to the nature of my injuries. I don't know for certain how big of a role the peptide and hgh played in my recovery but I will say that it did speed things up. I slept quite a bit more after going back on hgh post op and this was my first time ever taking peptides also. As I have discussed early I have two more surgeries pending as of now...a medial meniscus replacement and a cervical laminectomy at L5/L6 and I've been advised to follow similar post op protocols for each. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the info.

 

[weights426344]

Thanks for the input. How long ago was your fusion and how long until you started to get back any of the neurological deficit?

The fusion was performed in the summer of 2014. My experience is going to be quite different then most because I had to wait for the approval of surgery which the jobs ins carrier first declined. I had permanent nerve damage already setting in from the previous 22 months of compression on all the nerve roots. One of the biggest game changers for me was the sciatica pains going down the backs of both legs from my butt cheeks into the backs of my knees and from there down the outside of my calves and into my toes. After the fusion was done the sciatica pains were reduced roughly 95%. I only get them now when I'm vertical for too long or when I sleep wrong. Again you must remember I had to deal with severe nerve compressions for 22 months. By the time I already had surgery I had almost compete densely nerve damage in my right hip and entire right leg and partial sensory nerve damage in my left quad and hamstring and the left hip flexors. The motor deficits in my left leg started coming back at about 3 months post op but the severity of the nerve damage in my lower back has unfortunately left my right leg mostly useless. I have to walk with a can and a full hinged locking leg brace on my right leg from my hip to my ankle and I will be in this for the rest of my life. Please don't let my experience shy you away from what may be best for you. I would ABSOLUTELY do these surgeries all over again in a heartbeat because of the pain it took away.

 

[WeightMachine]

Wish you the best Cobraman!

Nice thread!

I've got an appointment this week with an orthopedic surgeon.
I fought off surgery with chiropractic for many years.
It was great reading everyone's experiences.

 

[weights426344]

These are the two best options available that many doctors will perform if you prefer to delay the surgery. If the spinal cord stimulator works, then it will be permanently fused into the body by most likely a pain management doctor who has had experience doing those. Spinal traction can be done at any physical rehab or chiropractor place. If you have a bulging disk that is compressing the nerve, then action must be taken. Best bet for that is a microdisectomy which leaves just a little 1-2inch scar on the place where the neurosurgeon performs it.

If your MRI shows very bad degenerative damage and stenosis, then a spinal fusion will be your last bet if the traction and stimulators dont help with the pain. Might as well get it done now while you have the best chance at rehabilitation instead of when you are older. I've seen a few people who have had fusions done at a younger age and they are able to get around and move just fine once they finish rehab. Rehab is key when getting the fusion done.

btw, if your doctor wants you to try some pain meds for it, try it out. I know people talk about the horrors of pain meds, but when they are used correctly and not abused (abusing by snorting them, taking them more than prescribed, taking recreational) then they can be a god send for people who have debilitating/almost crippling pain like you do.

This is something I have to completely agree with. I've done traction and decompression therapy years ago and it actually fixed the initial issues I had with a binding disk. But with my accident unfortunately it wasn't an option going forward. But this is very good information!!!

 

[Cobraman]

Wish you the best Cobraman!

Nice thread!

I've got an appointment this week with an orthopedic surgeon.
I fought off surgery with chiropractic for many years.
It was great reading everyone's experiences.

Thanks. I am hoping to get more function soon. It is very frustrating.

 

[Cobraman]

Update:
I have an appointment with an orthopedic surgeon who does does stem cell for discs. He harvests the stem cells from bone marrow of hip. He is involved in a national study for this procedure and has gotten excellent results so far. I sent him my post surgery mri report and he feels I am a candidate. I don't like the idea of a second surgical site for harvesting the stem cells, but cannot find anyone doing it from the cadaver stem cells.

Cost for all treatment is $5000 w/ no insurance coverage. I will post info on this after my appt. I will not be part of the study because the protocol calls for someone in bad pain. I am not in bad pain. I am doing this more for prophylactic reasons, to prevent further loss of disc tissue and potentially reverse disc degeneration. Will hopefully also stop the back and leg spasms I still have. I don't think it will affect the nerve damage I have.

 

[Jacky McSwole]

Update:
I have an appointment with an orthopedic surgeon who does does stem cell for discs. He harvests the stem cells from bone marrow of hip. He is involved in a national study for this procedure and has gotten excellent results so far. I sent him my post surgery mri report and he feels I am a candidate. I don't like the idea of a second surgical site for harvesting the stem cells, but cannot find anyone doing it from the cadaver stem cells.

Cost for all treatment is $5000 w/ no insurance coverage. I will post info on this after my appt. I will not be part of the study because the protocol calls for someone in bad pain. I am not in bad pain. I am doing this more for prophylactic reasons, to prevent further loss of disc tissue and potentially reverse disc degeneration. Will hopefully also stop the back and leg spasms I still have. I don't think it will affect the nerve damage I have.

I've read of clinics atleast here in Arizona that harvest stem cells from your own fat, minimally invasive this way.

 

[Floxedone]

As I have written extensively MMP enzymes are the LIMITING factor in connective tissue degeneration. The long list of modifiers alond with connective tissue amplifiers should help to slow, stopp, or reverse damage.

There are MANY types of stem cell based operations for Discs.

What the "legit" medical community is working on is harvesting MSC stem cells for bone or fat, multiplying them out of the body is some cases, THEN adding in growth factors to change them into the proper tissue while OUTSIDE the body. In this case it would be some kind of articular,disc tissue, then this tissue can be applied to a graft material and placed withing the disc, or injected into the disc space. This is specific placement of specifically differentiated MSC's.

I had the "experimental" fat based stem cell done for muscles and tendons from Cipro toxicity. In this case they take out your fat, harvest MSC's, combine them with your own PRP that contains growth factors for cartilage, bone, muscles, etc. They use a laser to cause a certain percentage to differentiate, than they inject the WHOLE mix into wherever you need it.
This could be called "non-specific differentiated MSC's" placed into

1. Specific tissue such as discs, tendons, muscles, brain (through nose)

2. NON-specific IV administration.

I had IM, intranasal, and IV done.

Intra-nasal carries a VERY SMALL risk of blindness through the blocking of the eyes' arteries as can happen with many facial injections.

What isn't know yet is if fat based MSC's injected into discs will incorporate into the damaged tissue.

What also isn't know yet is if the Liver will filter out most of the MSC's aftr X amount of time.

All this aside, I would try micro-current therapy, bromealin, all the MMP modifiers, and LED light therapy and I would stay THE HELL AWAY from prolotherapy.

If I did get Stem cell disc injections I would defineltyh use LED light therapy.

 

[Cobraman]

As I have written extensively MMP enzymes are the LIMITING factor in connective tissue degeneration. The long list of modifiers alond with connective tissue amplifiers should help to slow, stopp, or reverse damage.

There are MANY types of stem cell based operations for Discs.

What the "legit" medical community is working on is harvesting MSC stem cells for bone or fat, multiplying them out of the body is some cases, THEN adding in growth factors to change them into the proper tissue while OUTSIDE the body. In this case it would be some kind of articular,disc tissue, then this tissue can be applied to a graft material and placed withing the disc, or injected into the disc space. This is specific placement of specifically differentiated MSC's.

I had the "experimental" fat based stem cell done for muscles and tendons from Cipro toxicity. In this case they take out your fat, harvest MSC's, combine them with your own PRP that contains growth factors for cartilage, bone, muscles, etc. They use a laser to cause a certain percentage to differentiate, than they inject the WHOLE mix into wherever you need it.
This could be called "non-specific differentiated MSC's" placed into

1. Specific tissue such as discs, tendons, muscles, brain (through nose)

2. NON-specific IV administration.

I had IM, intranasal, and IV done.

Intra-nasal carries a VERY SMALL risk of blindness through the blocking of the eyes' arteries as can happen with many facial injections.

What isn't know yet is if fat based MSC's injected into discs will incorporate into the damaged tissue.

What also isn't know yet is if the Liver will filter out most of the MSC's aftr X amount of time.

All this aside, I would try micro-current therapy, bromealin, all the MMP modifiers, and LED light therapy and I would stay THE HELL AWAY from prolotherapy.

If I did get Stem cell disc injections I would defineltyh use LED light therapy.

I have added some supplements based on your previous posts. Thanks for the info. I will be asking a lot of questions at my appointment next Tuesday and will report back.