Possible alternative to spinal fusion surgery?

[Floxedone]

Here are some interesting studies (referenced at bottom of article) on stem cell for discs.

Mesenchymal stem cell tracking in the intervertebral disc

 

[Cobraman]

Had stem cell procedure done on 12/23/15. Was pretty easy. Minimal pain. Dr. said that he placed stem cells at L2-3, L4-5, and L5-S1. When he injected he felt resistance only in L5-S1 disc. Resistance is good because it means the material will be contained. Because the material is thick and sticky it may still help the other 2 sites. I am not too optimistic about the other 2 sites. The 2 sites likely have fissures in the discs.

I have a follow-up appt a week from Tuesday.

 

[GettingBackIn]

Where did you find a Dr to do this?

 

[Bio]

Had stem cell procedure done on 12/23/15. Was pretty easy. Minimal pain. Dr. said that he placed stem cells at L2-3, L4-5, and L5-S1. When he injected he felt resistance only in L5-S1 disc. Resistance is good because it means the material will be contained. Because the material is thick and sticky it may still help the other 2 sites. I am not too optimistic about the other 2 sites. The 2 sites likely have fissures in the discs.

I have a follow-up appt a week from Tuesday.

How long before you'll know if it's working/worked?

 

[dragonfire101]

I had it done it didnt do anything a waste of several thousand dollars. The studies I reviewed aftewards said the disc enviroment is to harsh for the MSC stem cells to stimulate regenerative change that really make an impact. they do, but not enough to make impact.



**broken link removed**

 

[Cobraman]

Where did you find a Dr to do this?

Fort Wayne, Indiana. Did a search of Dr's in a study. He was the closest to me.

 

[Cobraman]

How long before you'll know if it's working/worked?

As early as 2 months. If my symptoms improve before that time then obviously something positive is going on. They want an MRI at 6 mo, but since the cells have petered out at 2 months and have done all they could, I will be looking to revise my original decompression surgery before the 6 mo period. The follow up MRI post initial surgery showed some areas that were not cleared well. Will be discussing many items with this surgeon next Tuesday.

 

[Cobraman]

I had it done it didnt do anything a waste of several thousand dollars. The studies I reviewed aftewards said the disc enviroment is to harsh for the MSC stem cells to stimulate regenerative change that really make an impact. they do, but not enough to make impact.



**broken link removed**

Even small changes physically can make dramatic changes in symptomology. I appreciate what you are saying. If the stem cells can be held the results are positive. I am desperate at this point, so I am willing to take a chance.

 

[upeccmi]

This is a very interesting and informative post, thanks. After about 5 years of increasing back issues, the past year it traveled down my left leg(sciatica), I was told I had two hernated disks and scoliosis. I had two epidurals last year which gave me about 3 months of relief each. After doing a flooring DIY project I really pissed my back off and was in bed for 2 1/2 weeks with the worst pain I have ever experienced. Pain guy set up a facet injection, which did nothing. He sent me to a surgeon ASAP. I was told I also have severe spinal stenosis that he was surprised I wasn't there long before this. He set up a laminectomy with a double fusion (L3,4,5). I was scheduled Dec 21, I also read of the failure rate and the possibility of future herniations and surgeries, I postponed the surgery. Once I was able to sit and actually drive again (about 4 weeks) I started going to a spine rehab place which did decompression, accupuncture, chiro, laser therapy, massage and pt all in one session. It has helped, I do not have the pain, I went back to the gym (light workouts). I feel the decompression helped alot as well as the chiro adjustments. I have a torn quad tendon from years ago that was misdiagnosed at the time but besides buckling I was living with. Now since the sciatica in that leg weakened the leg, I have fallen 5 times in the last two weeks. I am not ruling out the fusion, I just want to first get other neurosurgeon opinions but mostly because walking is a huge part of pt with a back, I need to get my leg fixed first.

 

[Cobraman]

This is a very interesting and informative post, thanks. After about 5 years of increasing back issues, the past year it traveled down my left leg(sciatica), I was told I had two hernated disks and scoliosis. I had two epidurals last year which gave me about 3 months of relief each. After doing a flooring DIY project I really pissed my back off and was in bed for 2 1/2 weeks with the worst pain I have ever experienced. Pain guy set up a facet injection, which did nothing. He sent me to a surgeon ASAP. I was told I also have severe spinal stenosis that he was surprised I wasn't there long before this. He set up a laminectomy with a double fusion (L3,4,5). I was scheduled Dec 21, I also read of the failure rate and the possibility of future herniations and surgeries, I postponed the surgery. Once I was able to sit and actually drive again (about 4 weeks) I started going to a spine rehab place which did decompression, accupuncture, chiro, laser therapy, massage and pt all in one session. It has helped, I do not have the pain, I went back to the gym (light workouts). I feel the decompression helped alot as well as the chiro adjustments. I have a torn quad tendon from years ago that was misdiagnosed at the time but besides buckling I was living with. Now since the sciatica in that leg weakened the leg, I have fallen 5 times in the last two weeks. I am not ruling out the fusion, I just want to first get other neurosurgeon opinions but mostly because walking is a huge part of pt with a back, I need to get my leg fixed first.

I feel for you. Not fun having a bad back. Consider doing a decompression surgery before doing a fusion. Might work for you. Some nutritional guys think that a strict low/no carb diet over time can reverse spinal stenosis(Dr. Bruce West--a chiropractor that does a health newsletter). This diet is tough, but some believe in it. They say if you follow it for a least a year, it can produce amazing results. Don't know if I believe it, but I do know from other studies that it can only improve your health. Good luck.

I will post again after my next appt on Tuesday.

 

[Cobraman]

Earlier in this thread Floxedone presented information regarding the role of MMP's in degenerative disc disease. It was proposed to take certain supplements to inhibit the MMP's. I was just doing some research and found that doxycycline and minocycline, both tetracycline antibiotic derivatives used to treat acne, also inhibit MMP's.

This falls directly in line w/ the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis with these antibiotics. People who took these meds had remission of their RA symptoms. I will also start taking doxycycline besides the supplements.

Thanks Floxedone.

 

[upeccmi]

They want to do a laminectomy (decompression surgery) but was told they need to do the fusion to stabilize the back from the scoliosis. My back looks like an upside down question mark now. So far the rehab place I mentioned has helped with the unbelievable pain I was in last month. I was so bad even high dose morphine pills didn't help. Like I said, I am still trying to find an orthopedist that is able to do the surgery on my years old quad tear. I need to be able to walk to rehab from any back surgery. 30 years of gear use and those 600+ lb squats and 400 lb bent over rows is now making me pay. I love bodybuilding but now I now feel real old and that invinceable feelings of my 20s is long gone. The past 10 years (I am 49) I have seen so many surgeries and health scares I can write a book.

 

[massivemark]

Find an integrated doctor in your area who does prolotherapy...
Www.vitamincoach.com

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[Bio]

This is a very interesting and informative post, thanks. After about 5 years of increasing back issues, the past year it traveled down my left leg(sciatica), I was told I had two hernated disks and scoliosis. I had two epidurals last year which gave me about 3 months of relief each. After doing a flooring DIY project I really pissed my back off and was in bed for 2 1/2 weeks with the worst pain I have ever experienced. Pain guy set up a facet injection, which did nothing. He sent me to a surgeon ASAP. I was told I also have severe spinal stenosis that he was surprised I wasn't there long before this. He set up a laminectomy with a double fusion (L3,4,5). I was scheduled Dec 21, I also read of the failure rate and the possibility of future herniations and surgeries, I postponed the surgery. Once I was able to sit and actually drive again (about 4 weeks) I started going to a spine rehab place which did decompression, accupuncture, chiro, laser therapy, massage and pt all in one session. It has helped, I do not have the pain, I went back to the gym (light workouts). I feel the decompression helped alot as well as the chiro adjustments. I have a torn quad tendon from years ago that was misdiagnosed at the time but besides buckling I was living with. Now since the sciatica in that leg weakened the leg, I have fallen 5 times in the last two weeks. I am not ruling out the fusion, I just want to first get other neurosurgeon opinions but mostly because walking is a huge part of pt with a back, I need to get my leg fixed first.

They want to do a laminectomy (decompression surgery) but was told they need to do the fusion to stabilize the back from the scoliosis. My back looks like an upside down question mark now. So far the rehab place I mentioned has helped with the unbelievable pain I was in last month. I was so bad even high dose morphine pills didn't help. Like I said, I am still trying to find an orthopedist that is able to do the surgery on my years old quad tear. I need to be able to walk to rehab from any back surgery. 30 years of gear use and those 600+ lb squats and 400 lb bent over rows is now making me pay. I love bodybuilding but now I now feel real old and that invinceable feelings of my 20s is long gone. The past 10 years (I am 49) I have seen so many surgeries and health scares I can write a book.

Laminectomies don't have the best success rate...I had one 18 years ago and it was a total failure...not to say it couldn't give you some relief. Also, you mentioned working with a neurosurgeon...I would highly suggest you deal with a spine specialist (spine only)...that's the way to go...neuro's are not better at spines!

I had a two level lumbar fusion, L4-s1, in Dec '14...I have no low back pain anymore! I am very lucky!! Then in August of '15 I had a two level cervical fusion, C5-7. The surgery helped those levels but I have problems at every level, so now I'm realizing how much the upper is bothering me. Currently I'm healing from T6 vertebrae and pedicle bone fracture. Anyway, as long as you're working with a conservative surgeon, the success rate for your surgery will be exponentially higher...a conservative surgeon isn't going to do a surgery that they don't think will help you...there are plenty of quacks out there that are happy to cut on you because it's their job (paycheck). Again, I want to stress seeing a spine only specialist and I would also get several opinions...I had 3 opinions and all three were identical which made me feel comfortable.

 

[dragonfire101]

If xrays show that there is no instability to require a fusion just deal with he degenerative disc/herniation and do RFA if insurance pays for it an traction daily. Fusion should only be if degeneration/ instability is so bad its required.

I had decompression surgery it will work but degenerate (dissicated)the disc quicker. Stem cells results are minimal and wont do much for pain and the degenerative disc releases chemical enzymes that cause pain. So even sometimes if herniation is removed pressure might come off spinal cord but you have pain form disc still from those chemicals within it.

 

[Cobraman]

Update:

Was treating a physician patient of mine, and asked me about my back. In the course of conversation he stated that his wife had a back issue that her surgeon could not find the cause of. He had suggested to the surgeon to do an upright mri. It was done and the cause of her issue was found and treated successfully.

The upright mri is done in a seated position so that the discs are under a load. It is very diagnostic if your pain or dysfunction occurs when you are standing. This type of mri machine is more expensive I am told so is routinely not available. I had to drive 2 hours to get to one. Also, as I found out, is much more uncomfortable because you have to stay very still for a long period of time(one hour) in the position that causes you pain.

I had this done on Thursday, got results today. MRI I had done post surgery last August showed minimal problems despite the continuing pain, numbness, weakness, and spasms I have. New mri showed I have fairly severe foraminal stenosis still in the areas I already had treated and other problems.

I would strongly recommend this mri for anyone who has problems while standing.

Am meeting with a surgeon tomorrow to discuss this. I suspect he will be suggesting immediate minimally invasive decompression surgery again. This is a different surgeon than the surgeon who did the first one back in July.

 

[Cobraman]

Spoke with surgeon that did stem cell treatment. Am now scheduled to redo the decompression surgery I did last summer. He will be doing minimally invasive laminectomy and decompression surgery at L2-3, L3-4,L4-5.

I am not thrilled about redoing this, but I am happy something is being done and that it was diagnosed.

Am scheduled on Friday.

 

[Bio]

Be sure to keep us updated on your progress!

 

[Cobraman]

Will do. Thanks for the support.

 

[Cobraman]

UPDATE:

Had decompression surgery Friday on L2-3, L3-4, L4-5. Surgeon stated went well. Said discs looked good, he thought that the stem cell must have had an effect. Had to do significant bone removal on L2-3, and L4-5. When he said that, I stated that it begged the question what did the previous surgeon do when he worked these areas last summer? This surgeon did not have an answer. He also stated previous surgeon took away too much of facet area that can cause destabilization of spine. With a strong core and prolotherapy should be ok. Am much more sore than last time, and front of Right thigh is numb now, but getting better. Must have had some trauma to L2 nerve. Am hopeful for a good recovery.