POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE TO TRT?

[Chinese guy]

Hi. Some background but I feel I have something I can add here that may help some folks. I am on clomid for hypogonadism. Clomid for the most part worked wonders for me. Test total 260 to 640. Free 10 to 15. Also the overall increase in energy associated with such. BUT...

It has caused some EXTREME joint pain for me. Not a lot of research of using this off label so doc doesn’t really have any explanations. I am very in tune w my body and this joint pain got to the point I had to stop taking it. After that joint pain disappeared. As amazing as this drug is this just goes to show we still need some research done for using it off label.

why dont you use testosterone and optimse those numbers without any of the negatives effects you have now from clomid?

 

[belixxx]

hundreds of studies proving this, just listen to rob kominiarek and read the other guys book. no AI's for me thanks

Just like'd to point out that I haven't given up on finding at least one of the hundreds of studies proving AIs causing joint sides in men at TRT dosages (which tend to be higher than what you need if you take AI only for test boosting purposes) if serum T and E2 levels are paid attention to, and I still couldn't find a single one.

**broken link removed**

'A weekly anastrozole dose of 2–7 mg was used in the study by Leder et al., and no harmful effects on bone turnover or bone mineral density were observed [26]. Mauras et al. conducted a 10-week study (4 late-pubertal boys and 4 young adults) with anastrozole at a weekly dose of 7 mg, and no adverse effects on bone density, body composition, or muscle strength were reported [27]. On the contrary, anastrozole at a weekly dose of 14 mg triggered a decrease in bone formation markers and increase in bone resorption markers, so this high dose should be avoided due to possible harmful effects on bone turnover [28]. When it comes to letrozole, Trunet et al., in their open dose-finding study, conducted on healthy non-obese male volunteers (age 20–48 years), explored the effects of single doses of letrozole ranging from 0.02 to 30 mg. A reduction in estrogen levels and increase in LH and testosterone levels were achieved with a single minimal (0.02 mg) dose of letrozole; however, the effect lasted for 48 h. Moreover, the effect of a single dose of 0.5 mg lasted for 72 h [29]. Furthermore, Loves et al. reported, in their open uncontrolled 6-month pilot study conducted on 12 severely obese men (BMI >35 kg/m2), that letrozole at a dose of 2.5 mg once a week was an acceptable starting dose for men with obesity-related hypogonadotropic hypogonadism [30]. According to available data, we believe that the potential recommended starting dose of letrozole, in most cases of male obesity-related hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, should be 0.5 mg administrated once every 3 days or 2.5 mg once a week according to the study by Loves et al.'

So at 2mg/day of anastrozole there is some bone sides...

For controlling aromatase overactivity on TRT purposes the highest does poeple are taking is half of that.
For test boosting purposes people are taking 0.5mg E3D to EOD.

So to sum it up, nothing to fear regarding your bones if you keep your E2 above 15pg/ml and check frequently.

Btw. the first AI that is intended for use for male hypogonadism leflutrozole is based on letrozole (which is the strongest of the AIs) is currently in phase II trials.

 

[Chinese guy]

i never said AI's cause joint sides, i say and it is backed up by science that: AI's cause bone degeneration. docs test with dexa scan people using AI's and bones are in fucked condition. i wouldnt touch an AI's with a pole

 

[belixxx]

i never said AI's cause joint sides, i say and it is backed up by science that: AI's cause bone degeneration. docs test with dexa scan people using AI's and bones are in fucked condition. i wouldnt touch an AI's with a pole

I've meant to write bone sides not joint sides.

 

[pickapeck]

Just like'd to point out that I haven't given up on finding at least one of the hundreds of studies proving AIs causing joint sides in men at TRT dosages (which tend to be higher than what you need if you take AI only for test boosting purposes) if serum T and E2 levels are paid attention to, and I still couldn't find a single one.

**broken link removed**

'A weekly anastrozole dose of 2–7 mg was used in the study by Leder et al., and no harmful effects on bone turnover or bone mineral density were observed [26]. Mauras et al. conducted a 10-week study (4 late-pubertal boys and 4 young adults) with anastrozole at a weekly dose of 7 mg, and no adverse effects on bone density, body composition, or muscle strength were reported [27]. On the contrary, anastrozole at a weekly dose of 14 mg triggered a decrease in bone formation markers and increase in bone resorption markers, so this high dose should be avoided due to possible harmful effects on bone turnover [28]. When it comes to letrozole, Trunet et al., in their open dose-finding study, conducted on healthy non-obese male volunteers (age 20–48 years), explored the effects of single doses of letrozole ranging from 0.02 to 30 mg. A reduction in estrogen levels and increase in LH and testosterone levels were achieved with a single minimal (0.02 mg) dose of letrozole; however, the effect lasted for 48 h. Moreover, the effect of a single dose of 0.5 mg lasted for 72 h [29]. Furthermore, Loves et al. reported, in their open uncontrolled 6-month pilot study conducted on 12 severely obese men (BMI >35 kg/m2), that letrozole at a dose of 2.5 mg once a week was an acceptable starting dose for men with obesity-related hypogonadotropic hypogonadism [30]. According to available data, we believe that the potential recommended starting dose of letrozole, in most cases of male obesity-related hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, should be 0.5 mg administrated once every 3 days or 2.5 mg once a week according to the study by Loves et al.'

So at 2mg/day of anastrozole there is some bone sides...

For controlling aromatase overactivity on TRT purposes the highest does poeple are taking is half of that.
For test boosting purposes people are taking 0.5mg E3D to EOD.

So to sum it up, nothing to fear regarding your bones if you keep your E2 above 15pg/ml and check frequently.

Btw. the first AI that is intended for use for male hypogonadism leflutrozole is based on letrozole (which is the strongest of the AIs) is currently in phase II trials.

Trial length was short and participants were very young. Over the years I have seen it over and over that especially older guys get joint issues from AI use myself included. You might get away with it for some time but eventually you might find real issues.

 

[pickapeck]

Here is an interesting article on AI induced arthralgia. I just read it over in 10 minutes. It's short and worth the read.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2826784/

 

[belixxx]

Here is an interesting article on AI induced arthralgia. I just read it over in 10 minutes. It's short and worth the read.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2826784/

Hi, thanks for the link. The problem here is AIs in cancer dosages in women inhibit up to 98%of e2.

What I am talking about is using it to boost testosterone in men while monitoring e2 levels in order for them to be in a low optimum 15-20 pg/ml range on an E2 sensitive LC/MS bloodtest. So let's say if you start off from a baseline of mid 20s you'll be able to inhibit about 30%. Which won't cause joint or bone turnover, or libido, or lipid problems. But you can still more than double your free test with it, taking it to comparable levels to a 300mg/week test-e cycle if you had a healthy baseline. Or it is also possible to take it back to high normal levels if you had low T to begin with.

Bone etc problems come from oversuppression of e2. If you monitor your levels that doesn't happen.

You can take too much of any drug to the point that it causes problems. AIs are no different. If you find the right dose, than you'll have no problems. This is all what I am saying.

 

[Chinese guy]

Hi, thanks for the link. The problem here is AIs in cancer dosages in women inhibit up to 98%of e2.

What I am talking about is using it to boost testosterone in men while monitoring e2 levels in order for them to be in a low optimum 15-20 pg/ml range on an E2 sensitive LC/MS bloodtest. So let's say if you start off from a baseline of mid 20s you'll be able to inhibit about 30%. Which won't cause joint or bone turnover, or libido, or lipid problems. But you can still more than double your free test with it, taking it to comparable levels to a 300mg/week test-e cycle if you had a healthy baseline. Or it is also possible to take it back to high normal levels if you had low T to begin with.

Bone etc problems come from oversuppression of e2. If you monitor your levels that doesn't happen.

You can take too much of any drug to the point that it causes problems. AIs are no different. If you find the right dose, than you'll have no problems. This is all what I am saying.

i am watching clinitians say that in trt dosages there is NO need for an AI and absolutely no need to keep E2 in a certain range.

 

[belixxx]

i am watching clinitians say that in trt dosages there is NO need for an AI and absolutely no need to keep E2 in a certain range.

1. If one is injecting exogeneous testosterone in TRT dosages and wishes to devide up the weekly dose from injecting once a week to more frequently (which beats the purposes of having long esters) than it is definitley possible to get away without using an AI (if you are unlucky and a heavy aromatizer than you won't), and I see no problem there. If you prefer it that way than do it so.

2. 'no need to keep E2 in a certain range' - the prostate cancer gene is proven to be activated by estradiol. Do the clinicians you watch discuss why they don't wish to keep a handle on that aspect? You might not see it as a side immediately like bloating and gyno, but why would you not care about not dying in it 20 years from now if you can?

3. I brought up using an AI only, or at least AI base for boosting your free test as a possible alternative to TRT (which this thread is about). Which will only work if you are secondary hypogonadal, and your testes are capable of producing the amount of test you require to be satisfied.

4. Alternatively if one starts from healthy levels (and not need TRT to begin with) then one can use it as a test booster that actually works, to more than double the free test (it is very well possible to reach the free test levels that 3-400mg test/week can give you). All that for a fraction of a price of herbal alternatives that don't do anything (although taking bloods does have a cost, and it does require effort).

So to sum it up: at TRT dosages you can get away without an AI if you wish to give up having to inject only once a week, and if you aren't a heavy aromatizer. But if you do use AI and not amounts that you oversuppress your E2 with than you WILL NOT have bone sides. Same goes for AI only. Bone and other sides are not caused by the AIs themselves, they are caused by oversuppression of E2 which DOESN'T happen if you use the correct dose of AIs. The doc in the video you linked says the exact same things. He doesn't believe people should start on a prophylactic dose of AIs (many other clinitians do), he likes to see first if the patient needs it or not without putting him on a standardized dose to begin with.

 

[Chinese guy]

what these clinitians are saying is that ANY use (not just obvious overuse) will cause bone issues. thats why i am not using any AI

they also say that trt and what trt does does NOT cause any cancer whatsoever

like i said jay campbells book has over 800 scientific citations. i dont have the energy nor inclination to list all or any of them out. i am just giving my opinion on things. if people want to use AI go for it. i dont touch it with a 10 foot pole and gloves on hands. i have never used an AI in my 22 year of using steroids.

 

[belixxx]

what these clinitians are saying is that ANY use (not just obvious overuse) will cause bone issues.

The doc in the video you linked DOESN'T say that, and I have failed to find EVEN ONE study that would say this. So for now YOU are the only one that I know of who is stating that:

'ANY AI use (not just obvious overuse) will cause bone issues.'

If you do find the time to list even a SINGLE study that says what you stated and was done on men, I will accept your opinion as a scientific fact, and will owe you gratitude. Since I couldn't just not find one study that agrees with you on my own, but I have found and listed various ones that state breast cancer dosages (that are higher than trt and test boosting dosages) DON'T cause bone problems in men, and the clinitian I know of (Dr. Rand Macclain) also says that what you say is not true.

So it's completely up to you to back up what you believe to be true. I did the same on my part.

 

[Chinese guy]

this is a good starting point for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h2_xAVmuSY&t=471s

good luck with it

 

[belixxx]

this is a good starting point for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h2_xAVmuSY&t=471s

good luck with it

You do understand that a link to youtube is not a study right?

This is the same guy, who is not a doctor, and said in the previous interview you linked, that 'AIs are bad,bad, no good, toxic substances that were never intended to be used in men'. In the same interview in which the doctor DIDN'T say that.

Now since the only source for scientific information you seem to accept and form your opinion based upon is this guy on youtube, watch him interviewing Dr Rand Macclain who puts everyone on TRT on a prophylactic dose of 1mg EOD of Anastrozole to begin with, than adjusts the AI dose to get the patient to the 15-20 E2 sensitive range:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KQlq9bGO04

 

[Chinese guy]

You do understand that a link to youtube is not a study right?

This is the same guy, who is not a doctor, and said in the previous interview you linked, that 'AIs are bad,bad, no good, toxic substances that were never intended to be used in men'. In the same interview in which the doctor DIDN'T say that.

Now since the only source for scientific information you seem to accept and form your opinion based upon is this guy on youtube, watch him interviewing Dr Rand Macclain who puts everyone on TRT on a prophylactic dose of 1mg EOD of Anastrozole to begin with, than adjusts the AI dose to get the patient to the 15-20 E2 sensitive range:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KQlq9bGO04

i am not here to provide you with studies. i said its a start. jay campbell is no scientist and has ZERO science background. but he cites hundreds of papers and has a podcast with over a dozen of clinitians who say this.

i know dr rand and he is way too careless in putting everybody on an AI. its an american thing. you wont find that in Europe. americans love their pills and put everybody on an AI the 1st day. not me, no way. Ai's are garbage for bones, lipids and many other things. if you dont want to look into it and jay campbells podcast with educated doctors then up to you. i am not going to spend my time here arguing some moot point.

this is a TRT section and everybody here is on test for life. nobody here is using an AI to boost their test levels from shitty 250 to measly 600. i am here to inject test to get 1200 all day every day and i let my E2 run as high as my body wants to. dexa scans are in and bones super strong. thanks for ur contribution but i will not touch an AI if they paid me to.

 

[belixxx]

i am not here to provide you with studies.

Agreed. You definitely aren't. You are here to say hundreds of studies proving what you say, and not be able to link one.

i know dr rand and he is way too careless in putting everybody on an AI. its an american thing. you wont find that in Europe. americans love their pills and put everybody on an AI the 1st day.

In continental europe there is basically no one on TRT compared to america. You won't even find an E2 sensitive blood test here.

not me, no way. Ai's are garbage for bones, lipids and many other things.

Yeah, bad, bad, no good, toxic, just all the studies I've linked are proving the opposite, we get it.

i am not going to spend my time here arguing some moot point.

Yet you are. Without providing any type of backing up to what you claim whatsoever.

this is a TRT section and everybody here is on test for life. nobody here is using an AI to boost their test levels from shitty 250 to measly 600.

Yet, the title of this tread is ALTERNATIVE TO TRT. Because nobody here is interested in an alternative. Bravo.

i am here to inject test to get 1200 all day every day and i let my E2 run as high as my body wants to. dexa scans are in and bones super strong. thanks for ur contribution but i will not touch an AI if they paid me to.

I never said that YOU should touch AIs. You should simply not come to a thread that is discussing ALTERNATIVE to TRT only to write a hundred times that you don't need or want AIs or need an alternative to TRT. Don't use AIs. Others who don't want to have prostate cancer at the earliest possible time, might still want to. Interesting how the let-the-E2-ride-free crowd never addresses this.

Also by saying ANY AI dosage being bad, bad, no good, toxic, bone killer puts you in the same crowd who says antibiotics are bad, statins are bad, aspirin is bad. You are basically behaving like an anti-waxer. Only your obsession are AIs.

Any medicine is bad if overdosed. None of them are bad if used correctly.

 

[Reload]

Any medicine is bad if overdosed. None of them are bad if used correctly.

https://prescriptiondrugs.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=005528

 

[hoodstark]

why dont you use testosterone and optimse those numbers without any of the negatives effects you have now from clomid?

I was attempting to try everything before committing to something that would permanently shut down my HPTA. The hope being somehow the clomid would restore my bodies ability to produce test at higher levels. Being on a drug forever isn’t ideal, for me at least.

 

[hoodstark]

Here is an interesting article on AI induced arthralgia. I just read it over in 10 minutes. It's short and worth the read.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2826784/

Dude this article is incredible. Clomid is technically an AI and I finally have some vindication from research about its association with joint pain. Doc kept saying he had no idea why clomid would cause my joints to hurt and maybe something else was causing it.

 

[hoodstark]

this is a TRT section and everybody here is on test for life. nobody here is using an AI to boost their test levels from shitty 250 to measly 600. i am here to inject test to get 1200 all day every day and i let my E2 run as high as my body wants to. dexa scans are in and bones super strong. thanks for ur contribution but i will not touch an AI if they paid me to.[/QUOTE]

I’m interested in boosting test levels from shitty 250 to measly 600. Especially if that 600 can be sustained without having to take a medication or injection for the rest of my life.

 

[bad rad]

Dude this article is incredible. Clomid is technically an AI and I finally have some vindication from research about its association with joint pain. Doc kept saying he had no idea why clomid would cause my joints to hurt and maybe something else was causing it.

Clomid, being a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, has varying degrees of estrogenic activity throughout the body. For you, it might be occupying the receptors in your joints and providing subpar estrogen activity there.