POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE TO TRT?

[hoodstark]

Clomid, being a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, has varying degrees of estrogenic activity throughout the body. For you, it might be occupying the receptors in your joints and providing subpar estrogen activity there.

Thanks a lot man. I thought I had some knowledge in this stuff but coming on here learning a lot. You seem incredibly knowledgeable in this stuff, would you know why my E2 would spike so severely on clomid? It had the appropriate changes to T (250-700), free T(10-17), FSH and LH...but my E2 also skyrocketed (15-47!!!) so the doc added arimidex to my clomid. Listening to you guys it sounds like my doc, although good intentioned, might not be up to date on hormones.

 

[bad rad]

Thanks a lot man. I thought I had some knowledge in this stuff but coming on here learning a lot. You seem incredibly knowledgeable in this stuff, would you know why my E2 would spike so severely on clomid? It had the appropriate changes to T (250-700), free T(10-17), FSH and LH...but my E2 also skyrocketed (15-47!!!) so the doc added arimidex to my clomid. Listening to you guys it sounds like my doc, although good intentioned, might not be up to date on hormones.

Depending on the type of test used, Clomid causes false positives for higher estrogens but that's its purpose. Anti-aromatase won't fix that and will likely compound the joint issues.

What's your Clomid dose? 12.5mg 3x weekly is enough for some men. Too much for too long causes receptor issues with the pituitary.

 

[Chinese guy]

this is a TRT section and everybody here is on test for life. nobody here is using an AI to boost their test levels from shitty 250 to measly 600. i am here to inject test to get 1200 all day every day and i let my E2 run as high as my body wants to. dexa scans are in and bones super strong. thanks for ur contribution but i will not touch an AI if they paid me to.

I’m interested in boosting test levels from shitty 250 to measly 600. Especially if that 600 can be sustained without having to take a medication or injection for the rest of my life.[/QUOTE]

if you want to keep your 600 in this example you will then need to use clomid or an AI every day, just like you would need to do trt every day. whats the difference except that in 1 method you have 600 and in other blazing amazing 1140 total test. you brush your teeth every day also right, we all do many things every day and to have hormones optimised thats no price to pay at all

 

[belixxx]

Clomid, being a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, has varying degrees of estrogenic activity throughout the body. For you, it might be occupying the receptors in your joints and providing subpar estrogen activity there.

Joint pain is more often caused by estrogenic activity than anti-estrogenic activity. Anti-estrogenic activity rather causes joints to dry up, then ache. Not flare-up like pains.

Clomid however CAN act as an agonist and antagonist in different parts of the body on the ERs (one example is the moodiness side). It is also possible that you have an autoimmune disease that reacts with joint flare ups to agonistic behaviour of clomid somewhere. There are various studies on the role of estrogens on various autoimmune diseases that can have joint pain consequences: RA, SLE, lupus nephrits, etc.

One example:
https://www.clinexprheumatol.org/article.asp?a=1861

If you do prefer the SERM route then other serms might behave differently, because they act as agonists on other organs ER receptors than clomid. You can try nolvadex or toremifene if you wish (50mg of clomid=40mg of nolva=60mg torem). They do all act on the ERs in the eye for example so they all can have eye sides...

the other route you can try are the AIs. Low dose aromasin (exemestane), arimidex (anastrozole), femara (letrozole) can all boost your free test without causing you joint pain, IF you're joint pain is caused by the extra agonistic activity of clomid.

 

[belixxx]

whats the difference except that in 1 method you have 600 and in other blazing amazing 1140 total test.

Doing it your way letting E2 ride free? The difference is prostate cancer.

 

[belixxx]

Depending on the type of test used, Clomid causes false positives for higher estrogens but that's its purpose.

Clomid shows up on the blood tst as E2 IRRESPECTIVE of the blood test used. It shows up on the ultra sensitive LC/MS E2 test as well, not just the immunoassay one.

It also DOES cause real E2 to rise as well, not just show false positives. That's one thing that makes the uses of SERMS for test boosting purposes hard, is you are going in blind regarding what your E2 levels in reality are.

Never the less it is very well possible that clomid acts as an estrogen on your joints, and a switch to a different serm would solve your problems, IF this is an autimmune type joint flare up.

 

[Chinese guy]

Doing it your way letting E2 ride free? The difference is prostate cancer.

nah trt doesnt cause prostate cancer. no worries. i let my e2 get as high as my body wants. body needs e2 for heart health and bone health. i aint suppresing e2 no way no how

 

[belixxx]

nah trt doesnt cause prostate cancer. no worries. i let my e2 get as high as my body wants. body needs e2 for heart health and bone health. i aint suppresing e2 no way no how

TRT itself doesn't cause prostate cancer. Letting your e2 ride high does. The prostate cancer gene that we all have is proven to be activated by estradiol.

Sorry don't have a youtube link for you, but here are a few studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5778111/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3134227/
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0153609

 

[Chinese guy]

TRT itself doesn't cause prostate cancer. Letting your e2 ride high does. The prostate cancer gene that we all have is proven to be activated by estradiol.

Sorry don't have a youtube link for you, but here are a few studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5778111/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3134227/
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0153609

nah man we all know that isnt true and even if it was i would still let my e2 go as high as it wants cause i value my heart and bone health over measly prostate cancer. who needs a prostate anyway ey!

 

[belixxx]

nah man we all know that isnt true and even if it was i would still let my e2 go as high as it wants cause i value my heart and bone health over measly prostate cancer. who needs a prostate anyway ey!

Yeah man you all know it.
Only the facts are against what you all (who besides you?) know again.
And getting prostate cancer is not only a risk of loosing your prostate and that's it. It's a risk of dying. But who needs to live anyway.

 

[Chinese guy]

Yeah man you all know it.
Only the facts are against what you all (who besides you?) know again.
And getting prostate cancer is not only a risk of loosing your prostate and that's it. It's a risk of dying. But who needs to live anyway.

plenty of clinitians advocate trt without the need to control for E2. main guy being rob kominiarek. greta and super smart guy, i follow his advice, super smart guy. he know shis literature and real life

 

[belixxx]

plenty of clinitians advocate trt without the need to control for E2. main guy being rob kominiarek. greta and super smart guy, i follow his advice, super smart guy. he know shis literature and real life

Maybe if you wrote super smart a third time he would have addressed WHY one should not care about high E2 activating prostate cancer. But saidly as I have said before, no one from the let-E2-ride-free crowd ever does this.

The simple reason for this is they can't. They are just following what they have read in the '22 immutable laws of marketing' that when trying to sell your sh*.*t 'emphasize on trying to be different', so everybody is targeting an E2 range that is actually hard to accomplish? Lets forego it and we'll be the next TRT gurus!

 

[hoodstark]

Depending on the type of test used, Clomid causes false positives for higher estrogens but that's its purpose. Anti-aromatase won't fix that and will likely compound the joint issues.

What's your Clomid dose? 12.5mg 3x weekly is enough for some men. Too much for too long causes receptor issues with the pituitary.

25mg eod.

 

[hoodstark]

I’m interested in boosting test levels from shitty 250 to measly 600. Especially if that 600 can be sustained without having to take a medication or injection for the rest of my life.

if you want to keep your 600 in this example you will then need to use clomid or an AI every day, just like you would need to do trt every day. whats the difference except that in 1 method you have 600 and in other blazing amazing 1140 total test. you brush your teeth every day also right, we all do many things every day and to have hormones optimised thats no price to pay at all[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you are correct I’m just going off what my doctor told me. The purpose of him prescribing Clomid was to see if we could have my body naturally produce normal testosterone levels. He said it is possible my system could “restart, or start if it never worked in the first place”.

 

[Chinese guy]

Maybe if you wrote super smart a third time he would have addressed WHY one should not care about high E2 activating prostate cancer. But saidly as I have said before, no one from the let-E2-ride-free crowd ever does this.

The simple reason for this is they can't. They are just following what they have read in the '22 immutable laws of marketing' that when trying to sell your sh*.*t 'emphasize on trying to be different', so everybody is targeting an E2 range that is actually hard to accomplish? Lets forego it and we'll be the next TRT gurus!

dr rob kominiarek has his own clinic and on youtube you can find not dozens but over hundred of hours of him talking on all subjects related to trt. including this. if you want to know WHY E2 in trt should not be controlled dive into it and be open and listen. and if you dont then keep using AI's. i sure am not going to. we are going in circles here, fine day to you. i am off to help and advise other people and make their lives better

 

[hoodstark]

Joint pain is more often caused by estrogenic activity than anti-estrogenic activity. Anti-estrogenic activity rather causes joints to dry up, then ache. Not flare-up like pains.

Clomid however CAN act as an agonist and antagonist in different parts of the body on the ERs (one example is the moodiness side). It is also possible that you have an autoimmune disease that reacts with joint flare ups to agonistic behaviour of clomid somewhere. There are various studies on the role of estrogens on various autoimmune diseases that can have joint pain consequences: RA, SLE, lupus nephrits, etc.

One example:
https://www.clinexprheumatol.org/article.asp?a=1861

If you do prefer the SERM route then other serms might behave differently, because they act as agonists on other organs ER receptors than clomid. You can try nolvadex or toremifene if you wish (50mg of clomid=40mg of nolva=60mg torem). They do all act on the ERs in the eye for example so they all can have eye sides...

the other route you can try are the AIs. Low dose aromasin (exemestane), arimidex (anastrozole), femara (letrozole) can all boost your free test without causing you joint pain, IF you're joint pain is caused by the extra agonistic activity of clomid.

Thanks a lot. I appreciate all the info. I wanted to exhaust all options before committing to exogenous TRT for the rest of my life. I am young (35) and healthy (at least according to my physicals), so I was trying all SERMS before committing to the next 45years (hopefully) on TRT injections. You gave me a lot of info to digest, thank you. Although it is possible I have an autoimmune I suspect don’t you think that would have surfaced by now as I am very physical (bjj and Olympic lifting). I feel bad that I am hijacking this thread you guys just seem insanely knowledgeable about all this.

 

[Chinese guy]

if you want to keep your 600 in this example you will then need to use clomid or an AI every day, just like you would need to do trt every day. whats the difference except that in 1 method you have 600 and in other blazing amazing 1140 total test. you brush your teeth every day also right, we all do many things every day and to have hormones optimised thats no price to pay at all

Perhaps you are correct I’m just going off what my doctor told me. The purpose of him prescribing Clomid was to see if we could have my body naturally produce normal testosterone levels. He said it is possible my system could “restart, or start if it never worked in the first place”.[/QUOTE]

yes restart is almost always possible, the question is how good your production will be and how good will you feel. if you are under 30 i would say go for restart, if over go for trt. because even if you restart it fully simply by biology the test levels will be sub optimal so why not trt and keep them optimal.

 

[belixxx]

Although it is possible I have an autoimmune I suspect don’t you think that would have surfaced by now as I am very physical (bjj and Olympic lifting). I feel bad that I am hijacking this thread you guys just seem insanely knowledgeable about all this.

Autoimmune diseases can go on for half of your life without noticable symptoms than flare up.

It is also possible for hormonal substances to cause autoimmune-like symptoms without actually having the disease itself for example a case study where spironolactone caused lupus like symptoms:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/157853

These are rare, but possible.

So I would definitely try changing from 25mg eod clomid to 30mg eod torem, if the dose was otherwise satisfying for you as a first step.

If joint pain remains try coming off and see if it goes away.

If it does, you could try either HCG or the AI only route as mentioned above. Both would work toward kickstarting your own production. HCG + AI is also possible.

 

[belixxx]

Just some further food for thought:

Letrozol at 2.5mg/day which is way overdosed but bare with me:
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/90/10/5717/2839298

Resulted in higher free test numbers than 300mg/week of test-e did in this study (in which the men gained more than 11pounds of LBM in 20 weeks without exercise):
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e679/b56e7cd1ab7acb3332d09940629389922705.pdf

Again 2.5mg/day is clearly too much, and did result in oversuppressed E2 levels in the subjects (the purpose of the study was comparing the reaction to AIs in elderly and young men to a fixed dose [1pill/day], not individually getting them to optimal levels).

This is just to show you what's possible by increasing the production in your own testes. Especially if you do it in smart way without oversuppressing E2 and fine tuning according to your own needs (HCG+AI, torem+AI adding in boron or a DHT blocker as needed, etc).

 

[Black Beard]

Clomid does not work as HRT for most people due to it's agonist/antagonist effect on estrogen receptors in the brain.

Even with perfect levels of test/E2, the clomid behaves as an estrogen and estrogen blocker in the brain. This has an adverse effect on mood, libido, and well-being.


This is why so many guys have no success on clomid only protocols even with optimal testosterone/E2 levels from taking clomid. There's also the risk of permanent vision issues and who knows what else.