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POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE TO TRT?

belixxx

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This is the exact reason Drs get a bad wrap. This endo, who again is supposed to be top 50 NYC FORGOT to order a blood for testosterone. He tested me for every other thing under the sun but forgot to order the test for the reason I went to see him. This is the second Dr in NYC that has proven they can’t handle the job. I’m leaning toward Black Bear on his assessment of doctors.

Not even sure what to do at this point. I don’t trust him to continue my care if he can’t even remember to test for testosterone.


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LOL that's bad. Sorry for that experience...

I'm leaning towards the negligence version now myself as well...

This doesn't make all doctors classified as incompetent with trt though. I have to admit that this is a lame turn of events for this one though...
 

grenada

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LOL that's bad. Sorry for that experience...

I'm leaning towards the negligence version now myself as well...

This doesn't make all doctors classified as incompetent with trt though. I have to admit that this is a lame turn of events for this one though...
Bellixxx you have a pm.
 

Black Beard

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This is the exact reason Drs get a bad wrap. This endo, who again is supposed to be top 50 NYC FORGOT to order a blood for testosterone. He tested me for every other thing under the sun but forgot to order the test for the reason I went to see him. This is the second Dr in NYC that has proven they can’t handle the job. I’m leaning toward Black Bear on his assessment of doctors.

Not even sure what to do at this point. I don’t trust him to continue my care if he can’t even remember to test for testosterone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I work with docs/nurses daily. Only 5-15% are decent/good, most are average/mediocre. It's the sad truth. It's partially intelligence/knowledge, the rest is lack of passion.


The best doctors are smart as hell and extremely passionate about what they do. You need to keep working on finding them, these are the docs that are booked for months all the time because everyone wants to see them and they are in every field.



What do you call a doctor who graduated last in his class...Doctor.
 

fasterthenyoo

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These are also possible sides with clomid too.
I wanted to stop injections for a while. Was just tired of pinning after 9yrs. Did the Clomid thing for almost a year and it sucked. Levels came up on it but just not the same as injects. Sides were mostly bearable but being a moody bitch, brain fog, and weird minor vision issues here and there got old. Needless to say, back on injects now and slowly getting better.
 

Black Beard

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I wanted to stop injections for a while. Was just tired of pinning after 9yrs. Did the Clomid thing for almost a year and it sucked. Levels came up on it but just not the same as injects. Sides were mostly bearable but being a moody bitch, brain fog, and weird minor vision issues here and there got old. Needless to say, back on injects now and slowly getting better.
Clomid won't work for most people because it's a powerful estrogen agonist AND antagonist. So it will turn on estrogen receptors but also block them. This can make you feel like you have high estrogen no matter what your E2 levels actually are, and no AI or E2 blocker will work on it. You could have the best possible numbers on clomid only HRT but the clomid itself will make you feel off due to it's effects on the brain.


SERMs like nolvadex/clomid behave as both estrogen and estrogen blockers depending on the tissue. Raloxifene blocks estrogen at the breast but mimicks estrogen in the bone.
 

Black Beard

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https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14740338.2019.1666103?journalCode=ieds20 ( from this year )


Expert opinion:


TTh provides important symptomatic and overall health benefits for men with PCa who have TD. Although more safety studies are needed, TTh is a reasonable therapeutic option for men with low-risk PCa after surgery or radiation. Data in men on active surveillance are limited, but initial reports are reassuring.
 

belixxx

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Clomid won't work for most people because it's a powerful estrogen agonist AND antagonist. So it will turn on estrogen receptors but also block them. This can make you feel like you have high estrogen no matter what your E2 levels actually are, and no AI or E2 blocker will work on it. You could have the best possible numbers on clomid only HRT but the clomid itself will make you feel off due to it's effects on the brain.


SERMs like nolvadex/clomid behave as both estrogen and estrogen blockers depending on the tissue. Raloxifene blocks estrogen at the breast but mimicks estrogen in the bone.
Clomid is made of an antiestrogen (enclomifene,62%) and an estrogen (zuclomifene,38%). The emotional sides come from the latter.

That is why nolvadex (tamoxifen) and fareston (toremifene) doesn't have the emotional sides on most. For trt alternative purposes, there is no benefit to clomid (maybe price), and people should be on torem or nolva.

Raloxifene is the most selective towards breast tissue of all of them. But unlike the other three it doesn't do enough in the boosting sex hormones department.

For test boosting purposes torem is the best and only one should even consider using.
 

belixxx

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Here is a study most of you will find interesting:

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/84/8/2705/2864236

15mg/day of oxandrolone (anavar) administration decreased freeT by 20% by day 5. The study doesn't go further in time sadly.

However all 3 serms that are used to boost testosterone are very well capable of increasing freeT more than 20%.

Also all 3 of them boost HDL which anavar is known to decrease.

There are lots of anecdotal information all over the internet that in the '80s bodybuilders were using anavar in 15-20mg doses. So we know that it is enough to produce gains even if this sounds low by today's standards for males.

Obviously everybody is different, but a 15-20mg anavar dose seems to be entirely possible without any (or with much less than usual) amount of endogeneous test suppression and an alleviated effect on HDL with adding 30mg of toremifene eod or e3d. For longer periods than usual with cycles (it's not unusual for burn victims to be on such doses of anavar for months)

This obviously should be followed by blood tests to see TotalT,FreeT, SHBG, LH,FSH, lipids, hematocrit...
 

belixxx

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Continuing this previous thought:

A study where they gave healthy young men 100mg of test and 20mg of oxandrolone (anavar):

http://www.ergo-log.com/oxandrolonetestosterone.html

Note that 100mg of test is basically only enough to maintain free and total T levels without suppression, compare it with 125mg in this study:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e679/b56e7cd1ab7acb3332d09940629389922705.pdf

You can also see the results of 20mg oxandrolone without allowing it to suppress your testosterone levels can be compared to the results in the 600mg group of this same study above.

Now as I said in my previous post countering the suppressive effects of 20mg oxandrolone is very well within the capabilities of clomid, nolva or torem at 1/4 pill per day (or 1/2 a pill EOD) in healthy young men with responsive testes (besides the fact that they all increase HDL as well)

Now 20mg of anavar ED and 30mg of torem EOD is as safe as it gets.
 

Black Beard

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Clomid is made of an antiestrogen (enclomifene,62%) and an estrogen (zuclomifene,38%). The emotional sides come from the latter.

That is why nolvadex (tamoxifen) and fareston (toremifene) doesn't have the emotional sides on most. For trt alternative purposes, there is no benefit to clomid (maybe price), and people should be on torem or nolva.

Raloxifene is the most selective towards breast tissue of all of them. But unlike the other three it doesn't do enough in the boosting sex hormones department.

For test boosting purposes torem is the best and only one should even consider using.
Correct, i know about the two isomers that make up clomiphene. Last i checked they were working on using the enclomiphene as a standalone drug. Don't know whatever happened to that or if it ever panned out.
 

belixxx

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Correct, i know about the two isomers that make up clomiphene. Last i checked they were working on using the enclomiphene as a standalone drug. Don't know whatever happened to that or if it ever panned out.
It's available in India, but it didn't make it through the EU legislation.

Don't see a benefit of using it instead of Torem.
 

belixxx

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It's available in India, but it didn't make it through the EU legislation.

Don't see a benefit of using it instead of Torem.
CORRECTION: I do see in some cases.

I have found out the following:

Nolvadex and toremifene both carry a small, yet substantial, risk of a potentially fatal cardiac arrhythmia ("Torsades de Pointes"), especially in guys with QT segment prolongation showing on an EKG.

Clomiphene and Raloxifene doesn't have this potential side effect. Actually Clomid shortens the QT period and would provide protective effects if you have QT segment prolongation already. So with this in mind I would recommend anyone considering a SERM for test boosting purposes to get an EKG and decide which way to go (clomid or torem) based on that.

And to be safe, always get an EKG performed before considering jumping on either nolva or torem . I understand that basically nobody does this before incorporating these two in their PCT. But keep in mind that E2 causes QT prolongation, while androgens cause shortening of QT. So this effect is less likely to manifest if one is on or tight after a suprahysiological test or anabolics cycle, and more likely if you just use them as a test booster as an alternative to TRT.
 
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