Possible kidney issues, GFR 35

[MikeS]

What has your AAS usage been since you had GFR tested in normal range?

I think you should do what gotgame and MyNameIsJeff have outlined. I wouldn't be self medicating right now with Astragalus because its been repeated by some and advised here. No offence to anyone, but none of us are nephrologists here.

Been on the same usage plan for AAS since well before the normal GFR test in 2018 was taken. I'm going to have to assume that that is not the issue. I pretty much started my hypertension Med lisinopril and NSAID diclofenac shortly a year before the good GFR test. At this time have currently dropped them off my med list

 

[Swifto]

We don't know the mechanism through which it actually works. The data isn't there.

From the guys Dante has worked with who had terrible GFRs and protein spillage, it brought them back to close to a normal state. The other alternative is continued decline and dialysis, so it's better than that option.

Actually, we do know a little.

"The renal protective effects of Astragalus membranaceus is believed to be mediated, in part, through suppression of transforming growth factor beta expression (8) and enhancement of nitric oxide production."

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4597997/

 

[thethinker48]

Actually, we do know a little.

"The renal protective effects of Astragalus membranaceus is believed to be mediated, in part, through suppression of transforming growth factor beta expression (8) and enhancement of nitric oxide production."

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4597997/

I stand corrected

Even though they are hypothesizing it based off animal studies, that's more than I knew previously about it's mechanism

 

[qbkilla]

Is more research being done on astralogus? Does it appear to reverse or just slow down kidney issues?

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Mike i didnt read the whole thing...just pretty much the opening post and scanned the rest (short on time today sorry)
As you know lisinopril will show a lower GFR reading anyway.

If you do get astragalus please get a legitimate brand as that NUSA Pure brand on Amazon and even (NOW's Version) has shown subpar results in people. Hell anything by NUSA Pure is pretty much bunk as shown by firms that have tested their products. I always recommend Vitamin Shoppes brand as its the one that I have seen produce the results time and time again. Astragalus is a dose dependant supplement no doubt about it and there are two cases of people getting themselves out of total kidney failure with pretty high dosages....your not there yet but 2.0 creatinine and 35 GFR is not a good place to be and the trend you are seeing over the last few years is not good.

Things to study for yourself and anyone else in this predicament.

Pycnogenol
Grapeseed extract
Cordyceps

I know some people on this thread are not big on supplements. I had a big argument the other day with a guy in emails about that very subject. I do not understand people who put man made chemicals (steroids) in their body like its pez candy (some of them made by bathtub brew companies and individuals) and then in the next statement say "yea i dont believe in supplements because who knows whats in them?"....LOL..... If you look at time and nature.....Nature has a way of providing things that doesnt harm people meanwhile man in his all knowing smugness thinks he can tweak nature and self manufacture 'sometimes harmful' drugs/food/and everything else ....and time has shown once again thru "corn syrup solids/pesticides/GMO's/and the rampant industrial manufacturing of the food supply" (beef/eggs/and pretty much anything that comes inside a box etc) how much he totally F's up the whole thing...........So I dont understand the thought process of using chemicals that should not be in the human body in the first place....(but if thats your choice to do so fine) but not using "supplements provided by nature" to do you best to cure the toxicity, Plaque buildup, and damage that those chemicals create. Bewildering to me.

 

[MikeS]

Mike i didnt read the whole thing...just pretty much the opening post and scanned the rest (short on time today sorry)
As you know lisinopril will show a lower GFR reading anyway.

If you do get astragalus please get a legitimate brand as that NUSA Pure brand on Amazon and even (NOW's Version) has shown subpar results in people. Hell anything by NUSA Pure is pretty much bunk as shown by firms that have tested their products. I always recommend Vitamin Shoppes brand as its the one that I have seen produce the results time and time again. Astragalus is a dose dependant supplement no doubt about it and there are two cases of people getting themselves out of total kidney failure with pretty high dosages....your not there yet but 2.0 creatinine and 35 GFR is not a good place to be and the trend you are seeing over the last few years is not good.

Things to study for yourself and anyone else in this predicament.

Pycnogenol
Grapeseed extract
Cordyceps

I know some people on this thread are not big on supplements. I had a big argument the other day with a guy in emails about that very subject. I do not understand people who put man made chemicals (steroids) in their body like its pez candy (some of them made by bathtub brew companies and individuals) and then in the next statement say "yea i dont believe in supplements because who knows whats in them?"....LOL..... If you look at time and nature.....Nature has a way of providing things that doesnt harm people meanwhile man in his all knowing smugness thinks he can tweak nature and self manufacture 'sometimes harmful' drugs/food/and everything else ....and time has shown once again thru "corn syrup solids/pesticides/GMO's/and the rampant industrial manufacturing of the food supply" (beef/eggs/and pretty much anything that comes inside a box etc) how much he totally F's up the whole thing...........So I dont understand the thought process of using chemicals that should not be in the human body in the first place....(but if thats your choice to do so fine) but not using "supplements provided by nature" to do you best to cure the toxicity, Plaque buildup, and damage that those chemicals create. Bewildering to me.

DC thanks bro for your input. I did get the Vit Shoppe brand. The 2.0 creatinine and 35 GFR are scary, but I just ingested 1500cal, 10g creatine, 60g protein in the last 2 previous hour. Not smart. I believe the year before I probably did the same. But Im taking this very seriously. I am following the protocol mentioned and then, retesting, fasted, blood/urine 4-6wks. Hoping for a nice result. Otherwise I will immediately contact a nephrogolist.

 

[warlock]

Mike i didnt read the whole thing...just pretty much the opening post and scanned the rest (short on time today sorry)
As you know lisinopril will show a lower GFR reading anyway.

If you do get astragalus please get a legitimate brand as that NUSA Pure brand on Amazon and even (NOW's Version) has shown subpar results in people. Hell anything by NUSA Pure is pretty much bunk as shown by firms that have tested their products. I always recommend Vitamin Shoppes brand as its the one that I have seen produce the results time and time again. Astragalus is a dose dependant supplement no doubt about it and there are two cases of people getting themselves out of total kidney failure with pretty high dosages....your not there yet but 2.0 creatinine and 35 GFR is not a good place to be and the trend you are seeing over the last few years is not good.

Things to study for yourself and anyone else in this predicament.

Pycnogenol
Grapeseed extract
Cordyceps

I know some people on this thread are not big on supplements. I had a big argument the other day with a guy in emails about that very subject. I do not understand people who put man made chemicals (steroids) in their body like its pez candy (some of them made by bathtub brew companies and individuals) and then in the next statement say "yea i dont believe in supplements because who knows whats in them?"....LOL..... If you look at time and nature.....Nature has a way of providing things that doesnt harm people meanwhile man in his all knowing smugness thinks he can tweak nature and self manufacture 'sometimes harmful' drugs/food/and everything else ....and time has shown once again thru "corn syrup solids/pesticides/GMO's/and the rampant industrial manufacturing of the food supply" (beef/eggs/and pretty much anything that comes inside a box etc) how much he totally F's up the whole thing...........So I dont understand the thought process of using chemicals that should not be in the human body in the first place....(but if thats your choice to do so fine) but not using "supplements provided by nature" to do you best to cure the toxicity, Plaque buildup, and damage that those chemicals create. Bewildering to me.

NOW brand is not reliable either?

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

DC thanks bro for your input. I did get the Vit Shoppe brand. The 2.0 creatinine and 35 GFR are scary, but I just ingested 1500cal, 10g creatine, 60g protein in the last 2 previous hour. Not smart. I believe the year before I probably did the same. But Im taking this very seriously. I am following the protocol mentioned and then, retesting, fasted, blood/urine 4-6wks. Hoping for a nice result. Otherwise I will immediately contact a nephrogolist.

I pretty much only read the opening post and I thought you were with a physician at the moment. If it was me mike, and i was at 35/2.0 I would make an appointment with a specialist immediately, heck it might take you quite a few weeks to get in anyway....there is a point of pretty much no return I have seen with people over the years.....and you definitely dont want to get there

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

NOW brand is not reliable either?

I get to look at a lot of bloodwork over the years and alot of guys with kidney probs. I just dont see the results with people using the NOW brand astragalus. Matter of fact i just looked over a IFBB pro's bloodwork last week who I told previously to get on Astragalus (and some other things) because I didnt like his figures. I told him V.S. brand. I saw his bloodwork 6 weeks later and it hadnt even budged...and I asked him "Hey what brand and what dosage are you taking of Astragalus".....He said NOW brand...and I told him "thats not what i told you to do".....he has made the correction. I have nothing against NOW and i definitely have nothing to do with V.S......its just what ive seen over many years after looking at so much bloodwork

 

[muscle96ss]

I pretty much only read the opening post and I thought you were with a physician at the moment. If it was me mike, and i was at 35/2.0 I would make an appointment with a specialist immediately, heck it might take you quite a few weeks to get in anyway....there is a point of pretty much no return I have seen with people over the years.....and you definitely dont want to get there

I don't want to scare you, but the fact what DC is spot on!! Once you get to that point of no return, your life will never be the same. I can't emphasize enough how important it is that you find out what is going on ASAP and stop it in its tracks. I say this from first hand experience and I would give anything to have had a chance to have caught mine in time.

 

[qbkilla]

Kinda on topic, I plan to buy a multi because I'm dieting and low calories. Is there any ingredient in a multi that would comprise those of us with bad kidneys (example too much calcium or something)? One of the brands I was looking at is NOW Adam, I guess maybe stay away from that if their other supplements don't measure up?

 

[qbkilla]

**broken link removed**

This is the version people reccomend>

 

[gotgame]

Kinda on topic, I plan to buy a multi because I'm dieting and low calories. Is there any ingredient in a multi that would comprise those of us with bad kidneys (example too much calcium or something)? One of the brands I was looking at is NOW Adam, I guess maybe stay away from that if their other supplements don't measure up?

When someone has renal issues its not just general kidney problems it is sometimes the glomerulus sometimes the nephrons, sometimes very specific areas so its difficult to give a definitive answer. I would not worry about the ingredients in a general multi like NOW adam, in fact thats what i take. Its not a very good multi as its too low in some areas but its decent in my opinion. Guys on here will analyze every aspect of it and say its too low in multiple different ingredients and id likely agree but its good enough for me with a overall good diet.

Right now im taking Now adam, now egcg, now vit d3, now ubiquinol.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

In conclusion, in our randomized trial of participants with diabetic nephropathy and stages 1 to 3 chronic kidney disease, the use of high doses of B vitamins (containing 2.5 mg/d of folic acid, 25 mg/d of vitamin B6, and 1 mg/d of vitamin B12) compared with placebo resulted in a greater decrease in GFR and an increase in MI and stroke.
[...]
Because these vitamins are water-soluble and renally excreted, vitamin toxicity may be more of a concern in patients with impaired renal function. One or more of 3 potential mechanisms33 may explain the renal and vascular toxicity observed in our trial. First, folic acid may promote cell proliferation through its role in thymidine synthesis. Second, the use of folic acid and vitamin B12 might alter the methylation potential in vascular cells. Finally, B-vitamin therapy could potentially increase the methylation of L-arginine to the nitric oxide synthase inhibitor asymmetric dimethylarginine.

Effect of B-Vitamin Therapy on Progression of Diabetic Nephropathy

Context Hyperhomocysteinemia is frequently observed in patients with diabetic nephropathy. B-vitamin therapy (folic acid, vitamin B6, and vitamin B12) has been shown to lower the plasma concentration of homocysteine.Objective To determine whether B-vitamin therapy can slow progression of diabetic...

jamanetwork.com

Nothing definitive, but just to show that very high vitamin doses could be detrimental in those with impaired kidney function. I'm generally not a fan of the typical US-produced multivitamin with something like 10,000% RDI doses. Sure, the RDI are outdated and often too low, but not by that much. EU-produced multis tend to be much more reasonable in their dosages. Personally, if I use something like the ADAM multi, then I only take 1 cap instead of the recommended 3 cap serving size.

 

[nothuman]

I like Life Extension two per day as a multivitamin. Only downside is they use slightly too much B6 at 75mg and they don't include copper. Otherwise, it's the best for the cost.

 

[KillerStack]

I know some people on this thread are not big on supplements. I had a big argument the other day with a guy in emails about that very subject. I do not understand people who put man made chemicals (steroids) in their body like its pez candy (some of them made by bathtub brew companies and individuals) and then in the next statement say "yea i dont believe in supplements because who knows whats in them?"....LOL..... If you look at time and nature.....Nature has a way of providing things that doesnt harm people meanwhile man in his all knowing smugness thinks he can tweak nature and self manufacture 'sometimes harmful' drugs/food/and everything else ....and time has shown once again thru "corn syrup solids/pesticides/GMO's/and the rampant industrial manufacturing of the food supply" (beef/eggs/and pretty much anything that comes inside a box etc) how much he totally F's up the whole thing...........So I dont understand the thought process of using chemicals that should not be in the human body in the first place....(but if thats your choice to do so fine) but not using "supplements provided by nature" to do you best to cure the toxicity, Plaque buildup, and damage that those chemicals create. Bewildering to me.

I hear you regarding using man made chemicals vs natural supplements. But just because something is "natural" doesn't automatically make it safe or nontoxic.
Like some say weed can't be harmful in any way, because god gave it to us as a gift.
Well, by that logic opium and cocaine are harmless too. Or ephedrine. Even something as innocuous as green tea can be harmful
when taken as extracts (potential liver failure). Lots of similar examples in nature. The term natural doesn't mean anything from a health standpoint. Lots of herbs are thought to work through hormesis, that is the herb is a stressor to the body. At a certain level it's beneficial but at a higher dose it might be harmful. If I'm wrong regarding this concept someone correct me.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I hear you regarding using man made chemicals vs natural supplements. But just because something is "natural" doesn't automatically make it safe or nontoxic.
Like some say weed can't be harmful in any way, because god gave it to us as a gift.
Well, by that logic opium and cocaine are harmless too. Or ephedrine. Even something as innocuous as green tea can be harmful
when taken as extracts (potential liver failure). Lots of similar examples in nature. The term natural doesn't mean anything from a health standpoint. Lots of herbs are thought to work through hormesis, that is the herb is a stressor to the body. At a certain level it's beneficial but at a higher dose it might be harmful. If I'm wrong regarding this concept someone correct me.

It wasnt a 100% or 0% statement. Of course there are things in nature that will harm you (mushrooms, poisons,etc) but "for the most part" the large percentage of what is brought forward thru time/evolution/nature will not cause great harm VS the many mistakes man has made when he tries to skewer/tweak the natural process. You can see this in mans industrialization of the food supply (diabetes/sperm count/estrogens/heart disease/livestock feed/ etc etc) vs the places on this earth where longevity is the highest (places where the food supply is in its natural form and processed/packaged foods are scarce). Supplements are a billion dollar industry, when is the last time you saw "damn that darn garlic extract who knew it caused liver damage, and heart arrhythmia's?" Virtually never and when in the rare case it does happen its spotlighted. How many times do you see that happen in the drug industry? All the time, every single day. Its a "oops sorry bout that we didnt know 20 years ago when we made this available it would have these dire effects" I am not against drugs but I would personally take my chances with citrus bergamot (fruit) first before jumping on a statin especially when the result in many cases is the same.
My problem is Ive seen people in this very forum who will take Anadrol and Tren for half a year at a time with no second thought and then think "Whoa watch out for that Milk Thistle!"

 

[KillerStack]

It wasnt a 100% or 0% statement. Of course there are things in nature that will harm you (mushrooms, poisons,etc) but "for the most part" the large percentage of what is brought forward thru time/evolution/nature will not cause great harm VS the many mistakes man has made when he tries to skewer/tweak the natural process. You can see this in mans industrialization of the food supply (diabetes/sperm count/estrogens/heart disease/livestock feed/ etc etc) vs the places on this earth where longevity is the highest (places where the food supply is in its natural form and processed/packaged foods are scarce). Supplements are a billion dollar industry, when is the last time you saw "damn that darn garlic extract who knew it caused liver damage, and heart arrhythmia's?" Virtually never and when in the rare case it does happen its spotlighted. How many times do you see that happen in the drug industry? All the time, every single day. Its a "oops sorry bout that we didnt know 20 years ago when we made this available it would have these dire effects" I am not against drugs but I would personally take my chances with citrus bergamot (fruit) first before jumping on a statin especially when the result in many cases is the same.
My problem is Ive seen people in this very forum who will take Anadrol and Tren for half a year at a time with no second thought and then think "Whoa watch out for that Milk Thistle!"

I hear you. Many herbs have been in use for millennia and through that proven to be "safe". Still some caution is warranted when using highly concentrated supplements especially in combination. They could become harmful. You know if you meet a nephrologist or cardiologist due to acute problems, most of them will insist on dropping all supplements while they monitor you.

Regarding agriculture and their manipulation of food, many people assume they are the cause of whatever ailments they have. Most of their claims have not been verified by science or science have refuted them. You might see a correlation but it's not necessarily causation. I've read this IG account called foodscience babe and she says "if a substance is natural or man made tells us absolutely nothing of its safety" and "chemicals aren't automatically bad, absolutely EVERYTHING is chemicals" referring to people looking at food labels. She also posted all the chemicals found in a banana and most people who believe in organic foods and "natural" foods would say they would never in their life put this stuff in their body. People argue with her, saying she's a shill for the agriculture lobby, but there are very little scientific arguments put forward.

For example, some say milk is full of hormones these days. But when asked for proof of this these people fall silent. There is proof but they never cared to look it up. Same with antibiotics in meat.
Milk was blamed for early puberty in the US, due to hormones, estrogens and IGF, but scientists seem to blame overabundance of food, girls being way fatter than before.

That's not to say "science" hasn't fucked up at times, they have.

Regarding test levels declining dramatically and the reasons for that, I haven't looked at the research but I'm inclined to think there may be reasons we haven't considered.
I read that Philippines had the highest levels. I wonder how many bad chemicals they are exposed to? I would guess quite a bit but could be wrong.

 

[warlock]

I get to look at a lot of bloodwork over the years and alot of guys with kidney probs. I just dont see the results with people using the NOW brand astragalus. Matter of fact i just looked over a IFBB pro's bloodwork last week who I told previously to get on Astragalus (and some other things) because I didnt like his figures. I told him V.S. brand. I saw his bloodwork 6 weeks later and it hadnt even budged...and I asked him "Hey what brand and what dosage are you taking of Astragalus".....He said NOW brand...and I told him "thats not what i told you to do".....he has made the correction. I have nothing against NOW and i definitely have nothing to do with V.S......its just what ive seen over many years after looking at so much bloodwork

Thanks Dante for pointing this out. I've always been under the impression that NOW brand (for any supplements) is quite reliable. Based on what this IFBB pro got from it, I definitely won't be buying their astragalus.

 

[nothuman]

Thanks Dante for pointing this out. I've always been under the impression that NOW brand (for any supplements) is quite reliable. Based on what this IFBB pro got from it, I definitely won't be buying their astragalus.

NOW is usually pretty reliable. They seem to pass their testing on consumerlab whenever I look up a product. Their astragalus hasn't been tested there though so I can't speak for that one.