Post your CURRENT Calories/Macros

[luki7788]

Wtf is with these huge caloric swings on training vs non training days?

Ya’ll think you’re burning 1000 calories and/or hundreds of carbs in an hour or two of picking things up and putting them down?
Lifting burns on avg 300-600 calories per hour, which typically is max 60% from glucose if your intensity is perfectly aligned for glucose metabolism. That is 45-90c~ a per hour of lifting max.

A small reduction in carbohydrates relevant to the negation to periworkout nutrition on non-training days may be justifiable… but if you’re not low single digits, or in prep, or slamming insulin on lifting days, please hire better diet coaches.

Currently down to
P270/C450/F80

From peak bulk at
P280/C800~/F100

“Non training days” I eat a little less rice, because I still stretch and get my steps lol

With all due respect, at this point you’re literally insulting and questioning the opinions of many great coaches in the industry.

A lot of coaches use carb cycling. A lot of them use much lower calories or carbs on rest days, and they do it for many good reasons. This is not just about burning fewer calories on a non-training day. That part is obvious.

The main point is that you use calories much better on training days, all day long. You have better insulin sensitivity, so you can push more carbohydrates around the workout. On top of that, you maximize absorption of everything you eat: amino acids, carbs, and glycogen.

Another thing: on rest days you don’t really need a calorie surplus. The body does not work in a strict 24-hour system. We do, because we count days and hours, but the body works in a much smarter and more complex way. As long as you have enough amino acids, your muscles will recover. Don’t worry about that.

Also, don’t forget where we are. This is a bodybuilding forum, for enhanced athletes. Most people here use insulin on training days, and that’s exactly to maximize carbohydrate usage on those days.

Another important point is digestion and overall stress on the digestive system. If you weigh 250 or 300 pounds and eat huge amounts of food every day, then having a short “break” on rest days, with less food, gives your digestive system some relief.

There are many reasons for this. Carb cycling works very well. Most coaches in the industry use it, and most bodybuilders use it. So when you say things like “get a better coach”, you’re simply insulting a lot of very good coaches.

 

[qbkilla]

Wtf is with these huge caloric swings on training vs non training days?

Ya’ll think you’re burning 1000 calories and/or hundreds of carbs in an hour or two of picking things up and putting them down?
Lifting burns on avg 300-600 calories per hour, which typically is max 60% from glucose if your intensity is perfectly aligned for glucose metabolism. That is 45-90c~ a per hour of lifting max.

A small reduction in carbohydrates relevant to the negation to periworkout nutrition on non-training days may be justifiable… but if you’re not low single digits, or in prep, or slamming insulin on lifting days, please hire better diet coaches.

Currently down to
P270/C450/F80

From peak bulk at
P280/C800~/F100

“Non training days” I eat a little less rice, because I still stretch and get my steps lol

I used to do this big time lol. I've been reading boards for a while, I feel like this trend started when carb cycling because a thing...maybe around 2006 or so justin was one of the first I recall making it popular, high medium and low days. Then I think that led to people calorie cycling, where the high carb days tended to be higher calorie...and of course people take everything to the extreme and start pulling more calories from off days and redistribution to say leg day. Also, Lyle McDonalds ckd diet may have also popularized the idea...as far back as early 2000s. I stopped carb and calorie cycling 3 weeks ago and tbh...my digestion is much better with just 3 consistent meals a day that are balanced p c f every meal...blood work soon will be interested in seeing my a1c if it's still just low out of range.

But the carb and calorie cycling have worked very well for me over years keeping lean, it makes dieting easier too and I've combine with intermittent fasting too.

 

[ChickenRiceRepeat]

Training days
Protein: 250g
Carbs: 500g
Fats: 20g

Rest days
Protein: 250g
Carbs: 300g
Fats: 30g

At about 290lbs

Wtf is with these huge caloric swings on training vs non training days?

Ya’ll think you’re burning 1000 calories and/or hundreds of carbs in an hour or two of picking things up and putting them down?
Lifting burns on avg 300-600 calories per hour, which typically is max 60% from glucose if your intensity is perfectly aligned for glucose metabolism. That is 45-90c~ a per hour of lifting max.

A small reduction in carbohydrates relevant to the negation to periworkout nutrition on non-training days may be justifiable… but if you’re not low single digits, or in prep, or slamming insulin on lifting days, please hire better diet coaches.

Currently down to
P270/C450/F80

From peak bulk at
P280/C800~/F100

“Non training days” I eat a little less rice, because I still stretch and get my steps lol

That isn’t the purpose of the large swings in calories.

Many of the top bodybuilding coaches do this, such as Justin Hariss, Justin Compton, Phil Viz, to name just a few.

The idea is to grow as much as possible in a large surplus for the week while still going into a slight deficit on non training days to keep insulin sensitivity in check.

I mean we know Justin Hariss has created some of the biggest mass monsters ever, so i find it ironic that the methods he uses are being criticized on forums.

I listen to podcasts by succesful coaches who coach top pros for like 6 hours a day at work, like literally about half of them structure diets like this, so I find your criticism WILD.

Not saying it doesn’t work for you and I can totally accept that, but spare everyone the lectures on what they “should” do please. Suggesting that people who follow extreme carb cycling diets “need better diet coaches” when many of the top coaches in the world coach diets in such a way and have built so many top open pros is a little out of left field.

 

[ChickenRiceRepeat]

With all due respect, at this point you’re literally insulting and questioning the opinions of many great coaches in the industry.

A lot of coaches use carb cycling. A lot of them use much lower calories or carbs on rest days, and they do it for many good reasons. This is not just about burning fewer calories on a non-training day. That part is obvious.

The main point is that you use calories much better on training days, all day long. You have better insulin sensitivity, so you can push more carbohydrates around the workout. On top of that, you maximize absorption of everything you eat: amino acids, carbs, and glycogen.

Another thing: on rest days you don’t really need a calorie surplus. The body does not work in a strict 24-hour system. We do, because we count days and hours, but the body works in a much smarter and more complex way. As long as you have enough amino acids, your muscles will recover. Don’t worry about that.

Also, don’t forget where we are. This is a bodybuilding forum, for enhanced athletes. Most people here use insulin on training days, and that’s exactly to maximize carbohydrate usage on those days.

Another important point is digestion and overall stress on the digestive system. If you weigh 250 or 300 pounds and eat huge amounts of food every day, then having a short “break” on rest days, with less food, gives your digestive system some relief.

There are many reasons for this. Carb cycling works very well. Most coaches in the industry use it, and most bodybuilders use it. So when you say things like “get a better coach”, you’re simply insulting a lot of very good coaches.

You took the words out of my mouth and said them more politely and pointedly then I did haha

 

[ChickenRiceRepeat]

Non training days: 300p, 150c, 55f

Training days: 300p, 350c, 45f

Sunday high carb high insulin day: 240p, 900c, <30g fats

 

[buck]

Without knowing is a person is seriously trying to grow, maintain or dieting the macros don't mean much to me.

 

[rotinaj]

The main point is that you use calories much better on training days, all day long. You have better insulin sensitivity, so you can push more carbohydrates around the workout. On top of that, you maximize absorption of everything you eat: amino acids, carbs, and glycogen.

Another thing: on rest days you don’t really need a calorie surplus. The body does not work in a strict 24-hour system. We do, because we count days and hours, but the body works in a much smarter and more complex way. As long as you have enough amino acids, your muscles will recover. Don’t worry about that.

Also, don’t forget where we are. This is a bodybuilding forum, for enhanced athletes. Most people here use insulin on training days, and that’s exactly to maximize carbohydrate usage on those days.

Another important point is digestion and overall stress on the digestive system. If you weigh 250 or 300 pounds and eat huge amounts of food every day, then having a short “break” on rest days, with less food, gives your digestive system some relief.

There are many reasons for this. Carb cycling works very well. Most coaches in the industry use it, and most bodybuilders use it. So when you say things like “get a better coach”, you’re simply insulting a lot of very good coaches.

Please cite any research that demonstrates the body’s metabolism is not working at any point during that 24-hour system as you say.

Recovery continues on the days you don’t train, and a caloric surplus is advantageous during that timeframe, that is basic exercise science regardless of post workout nutrient uptake.
“Enough amino acids” in a deficit of carbohydrates will be converted to the needed, but not consumed, sugars via gluconeogenesis on “non training” days if that swing is too excessive

Enhanced interventions such as insulin can take advantage of more carbohydrate variations but beyond that, excessive day-to-day carbohydrate/calorie swings are largely unnecessary and an over-complication to dieting for the majority of bodybuilders in most circumstances.


I’ll take that opinion to the grave.
Been here since 2013 and haven’t forgotten the forum I’m on lol.

 

[Siggy]

I eyeball all my food when on a cut. I cut out about 1000 calories via eyeball and it works out really good for me, I only have to diet 2 months to reach my goals.

When im not cutting I eat whatever I want and definitely start gaining some fat but Im fine as long as I dont overdo junk food like too many PBJ sandwiches and tiramisu.

I dont bulk in traditional bodybuilding sense. Eating a lot more doesnt work for me personally with my goals, physiology, gear dose, etc, when I try to "bulk" I dont end up gaining any more muscle than when I stick to maintenance calories or a bit above maintenance, I just end up getting fatter. Im just a gym bro, not looking to gain 15 pounds of lean mass in one offseason although it would definitely be nice but Im not willing to do whats necessary which would be using more gear, using insulin with HGH and hiring a coach. Who knows, maybe later this year I will go that route and go all in but i dont plan on it.

 

[luki7788]

Please cite any research that demonstrates the body’s metabolism is not working at any point during that 24-hour system as you say.

Recovery continues on the days you don’t train, and a caloric surplus is advantageous during that timeframe, that is basic exercise science regardless of post workout nutrient uptake.
“Enough amino acids” in a deficit of carbohydrates will be converted to the needed, but not consumed, sugars via gluconeogenesis on “non training” days if that swing is too excessive

Enhanced interventions such as insulin can take advantage of more carbohydrate variations but beyond that, excessive day-to-day carbohydrate/calorie swings are largely unnecessary and an over-complication to dieting for the majority of bodybuilders in most circumstances.


I’ll take that opinion to the grave.
Been here since 2013 and haven’t forgotten the forum I’m on lol.

Bro, honestly, I’m not interested in studies, because those studies are not done on 120-kg bodybuilders who are running 2–3 grams of steroids, 10 IU of growth hormone, insulin, and God knows what else.

Second thing, I’m not interested in studies because what matters to me is whether something works or not. And this clearly works.

If you say this approach is wrong, then go and tell that to hundreds of bodybuilders who do exactly this, get great results, and move on.

I allow you to have your own opinion. I’m not telling you to use this approach. I’m not forcing anything on you. You do your thing, and let everyone else do theirs. That’s all this is about.

 

[Flex500]

Please cite any research that demonstrates the body’s metabolism is not working at any point during that 24-hour system as you say.

Recovery continues on the days you don’t train, and a caloric surplus is advantageous during that timeframe, that is basic exercise science regardless of post workout nutrient uptake.
“Enough amino acids” in a deficit of carbohydrates will be converted to the needed, but not consumed, sugars via gluconeogenesis on “non training” days if that swing is too excessive

Enhanced interventions such as insulin can take advantage of more carbohydrate variations but beyond that, excessive day-to-day carbohydrate/calorie swings are largely unnecessary and an over-complication to dieting for the majority of bodybuilders in most circumstances.


I’ll take that opinion to the grave.
Been here since 2013 and haven’t forgotten the forum I’m on lol.

I think you guys are honestly talking past each other a bit.

If weekly calories and protein are the same, I don’t think most people are going to see a big difference between eating flat every day vs pushing more food on training days. Recovery doesn’t just stop on rest days, agreed.

Where cycling does make sense to me is more real world stuff than physiology on paper and studies. As food gets higher, digestion, appetite, insulin sensitivity, and just not feeling like garbage all week start to matter. Having a couple lower days can help with that, and if you’re gonna pull food somewhere, non training days are the obvious choice.

I doubt this is some major lever. This isn’t 10% better gains. It’s probably not even 5%. It’s more about managing food, staying lean enough, keeping bloodwork and digestion in a good place, and being able to eat hard when you actually need to.

Flat calories work. Cycling works. Most of this comes down to what someone can stick to long term while training hard and not getting fat or wrecked.

 

[maxrep24]

TD
P225(direct sources) C425 F75
NTD
P225(direct sources) C300 F90

2 off plans meals a week with the wife

 

[AllOkJumpmaster]

I'll save myself the embarrassment of how low my food intake is even when above maintenance, but I think its funny how everyone in the bodybuilding world is envious of everyone else's diet. You are either envious of others that can get away with eating so much more than you, OR you are envious of people that don't have to eat as much lol. I know some guys that hate how much they have to eat, and often time still feel a bit full when the next meal comes around.

 

[AllOkJumpmaster]

I don't want to quote everyone, but I have definitely noticed with myself and with others I have helped that, at least when dieting down, and, or when trying to keep fat gain minimal during a rebound or a gain phase, keeping as many of your carbs outside of trace in the pre / intra / post workout window works very well. Keeping dietary fats outside of the window also helps. I have no empirical data to support this, but I have seen it work over and over, and on people fared better with fat loss when keeping their intake the same, but just shifting the food around to those windows. That said, I only really work with naturals, so I know you guys using other stuff may need your carbs at other times of the day as well.

 

[Mufasa123]

For what it's worth the discussion of calories on training vs non training days was both interesting and useful to me. I don't do it purposely myself, though I do tend to eat more on those days just naturally so I guess that's something, but there were a few things I hadn't considered. Secondary point being, non-posters/contributors get a lot out of such discussion too.

Thanks to all.

 

[qbkilla]

I don't want to quote everyone, but I have definitely noticed with myself and with others I have helped that, at least when dieting down, and, or when trying to keep fat gain minimal during a rebound or a gain phase, keeping as many of your carbs outside of trace in the pre / intra / post workout window works very well. Keeping dietary fats outside of the window also helps. I have no empirical data to support this, but I have seen it work over and over, and on people fared better with fat loss when keeping their intake the same, but just shifting the food around to those windows. That said, I only really work with naturals, so I know you guys using other stuff may need your carbs at other times of the day as well.

Props to your clients. I used to laugh at naturals thinking they somehow feel morally superior to AAS users. But over time just seeing the amount of drugs people pump into their body, glps included, and many AAS users i know don't even track calories...I have become disillusioned with the "dark side" and have a new found respect for them. And props to you for helping them achieve their goals.and respecting their choice not to use!

 

[qbkilla]

For what it's worth the discussion of calories on training vs non training days was both interesting and useful to me. I don't do it purposely myself, though I do tend to eat more on those days just naturally so I guess that's something, but there were a few things I hadn't considered. Secondary point being, non-posters/contributors get a lot out of such discussion too.

Thanks to all.

I remember when I worked with Alex azarian after working with another coach he laughed at the carb cycling diet and changed my approach and made things steady daily calories. But, he later added in 1 or 2 cheat meals a week and they were always post workout on the day I trained a weak part. Just shows how different approaches can work and even a non carb cycling coach still..when adding a bolus of calories..made sure the timing was of course on a training day and post workout.

I believe I saw one coach in a video...could have been justin or maybe skip talking about skip loading...suggested the cheat meal/cheat day/high day was on an off day. He explained why but I forget the rationale..maybe to replenish glycogen for the next days workout.

 

[maxrep24]

Wtf is with these huge caloric swings on training vs non training days?

For maintaining insulin sensitivity and not getting fat in the offseason, better nutrient partitioning/better pumps, gives your digestive system a break, it’s a pretty common practice for alot of coaches. Looks like you’ve been around long enough to know that there’s more than one way to do things, same with training

 

[d4ve]

Training day - 5410 calories:
850c
300p
90f

Rest day - 4410 calories:
600c
300p
90f

280 lbs. now, I've been 300 a few off-seasons prior.

LOL at not reducing rest day food...not saying everyone needs to, but IMO in the vast majority of cases it makes sense. Even if you have a fast metabolism. The body doesn't like being bombarded with this much food with zero break. Lots of other considerations come into play when you're eating very high amounts of food, it's about more than simply a surplus or deficit.

 

[ChickenRiceRepeat]

Please cite any research that demonstrates the body’s metabolism is not working at any point during that 24-hour system as you say.

Recovery continues on the days you don’t train, and a caloric surplus is advantageous during that timeframe, that is basic exercise science regardless of post workout nutrient uptake.
“Enough amino acids” in a deficit of carbohydrates will be converted to the needed, but not consumed, sugars via gluconeogenesis on “non training” days if that swing is too excessive

Enhanced interventions such as insulin can take advantage of more carbohydrate variations but beyond that, excessive day-to-day carbohydrate/calorie swings are largely unnecessary and an over-complication to dieting for the majority of bodybuilders in most circumstances.


I’ll take that opinion to the grave.
Been here since 2013 and haven’t forgotten the forum I’m on lol.

I Didn’t claim that the metabolism was “not working” at any point during any 24 hour period, perhaps you can qoute me on what you are referring to.

Apart from that, what you’re saying isn’t wrong. It makes sense logically based on what we know.

What I’m saying is thay the benefits from keeping insulin sensitivity higher by keeping calories lower on rest days outweighs the Benefits from having a surplus on those rest days, especially given the fact that a surplus every day will tank insulin sensitivity quickly and likely digestion when you’re eating the amounts of calories thay large enhanced bodybuolders do.

Look, I’m not saying what you are suggesting is wrong at all. I don’t have issue with the idea of a strong surplus on all days, though I think it is suboptimal.

I never once claimed it was a bad idea. What I claimed was that you saying the methods I’m espousing are indicative of “needing a better diet coach” is stupid, given that some of the best coaches in the world use these methods.

My point isn’t that your method is wrong, my point is that this method is at least as effective and in my and many top coaches opinions, more effective.

Also, your demand for cited research when discussing advanced enhanced bodybuilders is silly and I think you made it in bad faith to further your argument.

We both (hopefully) know that demanding citations when discussing such topics is absurd because no clinical research is ever conducted in our population.

 

[ChickenRiceRepeat]

Please cite any research that demonstrates the body’s metabolism is not working at any point during that 24-hour system as you say.

Recovery continues on the days you don’t train, and a caloric surplus is advantageous during that timeframe, that is basic exercise science regardless of post workout nutrient uptake.
“Enough amino acids” in a deficit of carbohydrates will be converted to the needed, but not consumed, sugars via gluconeogenesis on “non training” days if that swing is too excessive

Enhanced interventions such as insulin can take advantage of more carbohydrate variations but beyond that, excessive day-to-day carbohydrate/calorie swings are largely unnecessary and an over-complication to dieting for the majority of bodybuilders in most circumstances.


I’ll take that opinion to the grave.
Been here since 2013 and haven’t forgotten the forum I’m on lol.

another thing to think about: you are thinking about this on too shallow of a level.

You are basically saying that because we recover and grow on rest days, it is beneficial to have a surplus on those days as well.

Of course that is true, but it fails to take into account many other factors that matter a lot.

If we could simply rock a large surplus every day of the week and have it not affect insulin sensitivity or digestion then great, it would be better. The problem is that it doesn’t work that way.

Now if how you plan to structure things is to have a surplus daily for a while and then pull back for a short period every 4-6 weeks to reset insulin sensitivity I could see the argument there.

What you are missing is that some sort cyclical structure is essential to preserve insulin sensitivity and likely digestion in most people if you are actually a large bodybuilder.

To suggest that other people need better diet coaches because you are literally boiling the whole situation down to “more calories more often supports growth more” is wild brother. Obviously we all came to that conclusion as well and then rejected it based on other factors.

If you had simply commented on why you prefer to structure a diet the way you do, I would respect that and have not commented.

What I take issue with is your comments that people using these methods need better coaches.