prami/aromasin question.

[wizim]

once started how long whould one expect it to take to start to see improvements in mild gyno flare up caused by deca?

history...

i started the deca about 3 weeks ago. after about 5 days my nipples started to get sore so i jumped on nolva at 20mgs/day. after a couple of weeks with no signs of improvement i ordered the prami (already had aromasin on hand)
started last night at .25mg prami and 12.5mg aromasin.

this is a basic 750mg test e/200mg deca per week cycle which will finish up with 80mg winny for 6 weeks.

im also considering throwing in some winny now.

my cycle history goes back many years with the last 2+ years being 6mos on and 6mos off.
38yrs old.

 

[wizim]

nobody?

 

[Bigcheese]

I personally stay away from Nolva when on tren, anadrol and nondrolone and that is based on personal experience with gyno.

BC

 

[wizim]

i started day 1 with .25 then day two .35 and last night (day 3) .50. after three days the soreness in my nipples has subsided tremendously.
the first night i woke up just about every hour. i had sweats but never felt nauseaus or achy. last two nights i woke up to pee twice (three hours apart) it is normal for me to wake up to pee once a night. i will accept waking up one extra time per night to pee if it means i can use deca and not get boobs!

normally i pin mon/thurs. this monday i didt take the ddeca. i want to make sure im 100% pain and inflamation free before i continue with the deca. i hope to be able to make that decision by thursday this week.

 

[nickman1978]

its a NO-NO to take nolva while running tren...

so i would also think that it would be a NO-NO to use nolva with deca as well...
i could be wrong here...


Nolva upregulates the progesterone receptor or something like that...

Keep using the Aromasin and Prami...

 

[wizim]

soreness is 95% gone. chest is a little sore from monday workout so the that may be what im feeling. i think the puffiness is gone but its hard to tell.
i didnt pin deca this week (yet) i will decide tomorrow if im going to continue with deca or drop it from the cycle.
i am also considering dropping the test dose to 400/week. i typically run 750mgs but i guess there is a chance that this test is dosed higher than the last brand i ran.

 

[trenseter]

are you useing pharm grade prami?

 

[wizim]

no. research

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Well

its a NO-NO to take nolva while running tren...

so i would also think that it would be a NO-NO to use nolva with deca as well...
i could be wrong here...


Nolva upregulates the progesterone receptor or something like that...

Keep using the Aromasin and Prami...

The progesterone receptor is synthesised in response to the estrogen receptor in NORMAL subjects.

Nolvadex down-regulates the estrogen receptor in breast tissue, then the progesteron receptor will also.

 

[wizim]

nipples are very lightly sensitive.
im debating if i should go above .5mg prami.
im still taking 12.5-15mg aromasin and .5 prami.
as for picking the deca back up??? i think i may hold out a few more days.

 

[EDED]

its complicated

but

"Progesterone inhibits ER gene expression and enhances degradation of ER proteins (17) . Progesterone may also oppose ER-mediated gene-regulatory events, probably through sequestration of transcription factors that are essential for estrogen action (17) or by direct dominant-negative effects of PRA on ER transcriptional function. Nonetheless, some of the effects of progesterone are likely to be independent of estrogen (1) "
Progesterone Inhibits Human Endometrial Cancer Cell Growth and Invasiveness: Down-Regulation of Cellular Adhesion Molecules through Progesterone B Receptors -- Dai et al. 62 (3): 881 -- Cancer Research

this is in vitro study on endometrial hyperplasia,,,however the above statement is the generalized action of Progesterone antagonizing estrogen so take that as its natural mechanism, its a balance act here,,, test/cort test/e prog/estro etc etc dopa/sero aldo/dopa etc etc

so...makes sense if ER is low of course PR will be abundant, whats wrong with that? Progesterone is anti estrogen. Too low of estrogen causes problems as we know.

now, tell me is Tren or deca anti PR or semi anti pr or full PR agonist????

tren and deca are progestins right? that does not mean its going to act like progesterone in vivo. Hard to find studies on it's effects, but to me sounds like deca is antagonistic to PR and tren is more agonistic ....one makes you bloated wet gyno,,,,tren doesnt report as much as gyno compared to deca nor bloat.....also progesterone and aldosterone work together so deca bloat could be aldosterone,,,so that means deca is PR agonistic?

see shit is complicated.

my experience with deca and its acne/bloat/gyno/dick issue was elminated by AI instead of SERM. thats all i know.

 

[wizim]

so its been exactly one week since ive started the prami/aromisin.

i skipped a dose of deca last week. nipples are slightly tender but to me still look a little puffy. i need to ask the wife if she has noticed if my nips look puffy.

i have increased my dose of prami up to .5 mg and aromasin to 15mg.
should i increase the dose of prami?

i also added winny 2 days ago @100mg/day to see if this would help.

i also plan to lower the test dose to 500/wk rather than 750.

i would love to pick the deca back up but at this point if the tendernes doesnt completly go away i may even stop the cycle short.

i dont want tits!!

 

[wizim]

my experience with deca and its acne/bloat/gyno/dick issue was elminated by AI instead of SERM. thats all i know.

at what dose?
im beggining to wonder if its not the deca but the test dose as i have no deca dick.
ai on hand is aromasin.

 

[wizim]

another thing i just noticed. it seems like the puffiness in the nips comes and goes. last night i swear they were puffy then this am they dont look like it??
is it in my head?

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Nice

its complicated

but

"Progesterone inhibits ER gene expression and enhances degradation of ER proteins (17) . Progesterone may also oppose ER-mediated gene-regulatory events, probably through sequestration of transcription factors that are essential for estrogen action (17) or by direct dominant-negative effects of PRA on ER transcriptional function. Nonetheless, some of the effects of progesterone are likely to be independent of estrogen (1) "
Progesterone Inhibits Human Endometrial Cancer Cell Growth and Invasiveness: Down-Regulation of Cellular Adhesion Molecules through Progesterone B Receptors -- Dai et al. 62 (3): 881 -- Cancer Research

this is in vitro study on endometrial hyperplasia,,,however the above statement is the generalized action of Progesterone antagonizing estrogen so take that as its natural mechanism, its a balance act here,,, test/cort test/e prog/estro etc etc dopa/sero aldo/dopa etc etc

so...makes sense if ER is low of course PR will be abundant, whats wrong with that? Progesterone is anti estrogen. Too low of estrogen causes problems as we know.

now, tell me is Tren or deca anti PR or semi anti pr or full PR agonist????

tren and deca are progestins right? that does not mean its going to act like progesterone in vivo. Hard to find studies on it's effects, but to me sounds like deca is antagonistic to PR and tren is more agonistic ....one makes you bloated wet gyno,,,,tren doesnt report as much as gyno compared to deca nor bloat.....also progesterone and aldosterone work together so deca bloat could be aldosterone,,,so that means deca is PR agonistic?

see shit is complicated.

my experience with deca and its acne/bloat/gyno/dick issue was elminated by AI instead of SERM. thats all i know.

Great thinking....I am impressed....but what about prolactin levels from tren? Must be somewhat antagonistic to PR........

 

[gulfcoast]

so its been exactly one week since ive started the prami/aromisin.

i skipped a dose of deca last week. nipples are slightly tender but to me still look a little puffy. i need to ask the wife if she has noticed if my nips look puffy.

i have increased my dose of prami up to .5 mg and aromasin to 15mg.
should i increase the dose of prami?

i also added winny 2 days ago @100mg/day to see if this would help.

i also plan to lower the test dose to 500/wk rather than 750.

i would love to pick the deca back up but at this point if the tendernes doesnt completly go away i may even stop the cycle short.

i dont want tits!!

.5mg ED of Prami works for me - take it right before bed. Very little to no night sweats, no insomnia and have not grown tits.

 

[totalrecomp]

Honestly as far as the day to day variations in "puffiness" lots of factors come into play. For example if it is cold you will have less puff and many times it looks completely gone(for me that is). Also I have observed that when I eat a shitty meal one high in salt especially that the next day I have much more puff. And of course gaining fat will also make things look worse. Good luck.

 

[Macro]

The progesterone receptor is synthesised in response to the estrogen receptor in NORMAL subjects.

Nolvadex down-regulates the estrogen receptor in breast tissue, then the progesteron receptor will also.

this is not correct (at least from any practical perspective in males or really females). Though can see how you drew that conclusion--- or whoever produced that opinion. tamoxifen also does not down-regulate receptor expression (it can if certain promoters are present--).. it generally upregulates erbb2...., and contrary to belief can act as ER agonist in non conforming breast tissue (see AIB-1).


tamoxifen tends to be problematic for a number of reasons in males using SPRM, due to their impact on progesterone itself and on PgR expression (both directly and via metabolites)

 

[Macro]

will put some words to the PRL-PGR-ER tie-ins as well as the stat5 implications...

but have to wait...

 

[Macro]

all androgens bind to some extent to the PgR, pretty much all modulate/regulate PgR activation and transcription.....

that is ONE method by which androgens influence estrogen, and that influence can have wide variances based on host of factors, not least of which is actions on progesterone synthesis.

the OTHER is with respect to prolactin synthesis, though cannot rule out PRL expression impacts, generally due to excessive dopamine production with possible upregulation of MAO-b. One could argue that upregulation of MAO-b alone is sufficient to cause a shift in PRL production and release.. though PRL peripheral synthesis is also affected, as well as likely upregulation or enhanced transcrption.

wide variance here as well... age, extent of use, genetic profile, as well as specific compounds in use. Not to mention exogenously and endogenously present biochemistry, which can be quite impacting...


the one thing that is relatively constant is that pretty much all of the sides can be dealt with even reversed with prolactin suppressors. even where is only part of the "endgame" its generally effective in at least suppressing and forestalling any furtherance.... usually at least some level of reversal...