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PRE-Workout Performance Enhancing Supp. Combinations (KM)

Good gosh!

I love the quote I saw from Trop one time basically saying if people put half the thought in the other 6-7 meals of their day as they did their pre and post work out supps we'd see some brutally huge people out there!

Gaspari Size ON and NO Shogun made me sick and killed my appetite for hours after. YOU can actually put too much shit in a shake.

While it's not as simple as chocolate milk it doesn't have to be a chemical master piece either.


Dont even get me started on Animal either, know who Anthony Roberts is?
He's a few steps lower than him.

This is what Mishko ( Milos Sarcev) Recommends before during and after a work out.

"3-5 grams Creatine
3-10 grams Glutamine
15-20 grams Essential Amino Acids
15 grams BCAA's
30-50 grams of Vitargro (not sure if it is CGL cause that's another 10 grams of creatine mono per 80 grams right there)
1 teaspoon electrolyte drink powder
16-24 ounces of water"

No wonder his guys puke their guts out during his marathon superset work outs.

If you have the resources to buy all this stuff fine, but I wouldn't go broke buying all of it if you can't afford your other meals.
 
Good gosh!

I love the quote I saw from Trop one time basically saying if people put half the thought in the other 6-7 meals of their day as they did their pre and post work out supps we'd see some brutally huge people out there!

Gaspari Size ON and NO Shogun made me sick and killed my appetite for hours after. YOU can actually put too much shit in a shake.

While it's not as simple as chocolate milk it doesn't have to be a chemical master piece either.


Dont even get me started on Animal either, know who Anthony Roberts is?
He's a few steps lower than him.

This is what Mishko ( Milos Sarcev) Recommends before during and after a work out.

"3-5 grams Creatine
3-10 grams Glutamine
15-20 grams Essential Amino Acids
15 grams BCAA's
30-50 grams of Vitargro (not sure if it is CGL cause that's another 10 grams of creatine mono per 80 grams right there)
1 teaspoon electrolyte drink powder
16-24 ounces of water"

No wonder his guys puke their guts out during his marathon superset work outs.

If you have the resources to buy all this stuff fine, but I wouldn't go broke buying all of it if you can't afford your other meals.

While this is true, i have seen first hand how preworkout supps can increase workout performance DRASTICALLY when taken properly. Iv been lucky enough to work for a company where i had access to Bruce Kneller (around the same level of Patrick Arnold im sure you all know him) and have learned a ton on this area. Iv seen studies done (unbiased, double blind) and some things have been PROVEN though research to boost certain aspects of training. I dont consider myself as someone succeptable to the placebo effect, and i can damn sure tell you some things will boost your performance. I doubt KM and a whole list of other members here are succeptable to the placebo effect either. The KISS method doesnt apply here.

Massive, i hold you in very high regard and respect you and your opinions/knowledge. I want to RESPECTFULLY ask you a question.

Can you honestly say you have never taken a preworkout combination that boosted your workout to the point where you without a doubt felt the difference and it stood out as plain as day?
 
Bold below
good topic.....

asoep turned me onto to most of these supps, but i have done a fair amount of research on them as well....

the vitargo i take 1 scoop pre workout the reason isnt really glycogen loading, i mix most of the supps listed and the vitargo more for taste, (this shit taste like hell if you dont flavor it with something) in a shaker cup and down em 30-45min pre workout...... i like to think the vitargo has a pull in the stomach and the supps will be pulled into the sm intestine faster, i dont know if this is the case or not.....

So you do use the vitargo as a shuttle for nutrients and your formula. Do you think it would help to back down on the Vitargo and include other insulin mimetics for this purpose, due to the possible blood sugar crash?

like asoep said the stims i use pre workout are the theophenalline and theobromine, i also use some chocomine on occasion.... these are good stims s the dont fuck with the blood sugar... i am very sesative to stimulants, but these offer a smooth feeling and no jitters, makes you feel alert without wanting to sprint a mile....

Why not caffein? Its been shown to boost workout performance and strength in numerous studies. Its pretty much a given that this will make your workouts better.

i have been using the taurine pre and post workout....

the most noticable effect i have seen from doing this is lack of lactic acid build up... i can train legs like there is no tommorow with m inimal pain at the end of a set of 25reps for squats... also increased recovery time as well....

This would be an awesome plus. My legs get so pumped that i get light headed after sets and cant flex the muscle until it goes down haha. I have to actually wait 3-4 minutes between sets. Do you feel that you "feel" the muscle better with or without the pump? I do feel i can "peak contract" the muscles better with less pump, so maybe this is a plus in activating and contracting the muscle better.

another good supp is the idebenone, this will increase your recovery dramatically especially taken with coq10(not to mention the amazing anti ox benifits)... i will do 300mg a day slpit up in 3 100mg doses a day... definatly good stuff....

Im going to look this up. Sounds interesting. Can you give me the Idebenone manual for dummies breakdown?


i have been using the LBA's as of late also... i do like them... if i traein 2x in a day i will use 5-6 tbsps pre and post workout... i take them mainly for the convience.....

LBA's?

aseop is the man to talk to about the majority of this as he has intimate knowledge of it and a lot of other performance related topics as well... some folks may say this is too complicated and not worth the time and money, but i will assure you it is! i am a skeptical persona as well, but you will not be able to deny the effects of what these will do for you during a workout and further down the road... some of the supps have great anti oxidant benifits that would far outweigh the performance benifits if you weighed them out...

I want to take this in possibly another direction..... and aim this at Aesop if he doesnt mind and has some time... (Anyone else who would like to chime in on this one is welcome also, but it must be in depth and have reasoning for everything)

If you could put together your perfect preworkout supplement to boost mental focus, energy, ATP production, and muscular endurance.... what would it be and WHY each ingredient and what synergistic effects would any of the combination have?
 
While this is true, i have seen first hand how preworkout supps can increase workout performance DRASTICALLY when taken properly. Iv been lucky enough to work for a company where i had access to Bruce Kneller (around the same level of Patrick Arnold im sure you all know him) and have learned a ton on this area. Iv seen studies done (unbiased, double blind) and some things have been PROVEN though research to boost certain aspects of training. I dont consider myself as someone succeptable to the placebo effect, and i can damn sure tell you some things will boost your performance. I doubt KM and a whole list of other members here are succeptable to the placebo effect either. The KISS method doesnt apply here.

Massive, i hold you in very high regard and respect you and your opinions/knowledge. I want to RESPECTFULLY ask you a question.

Can you honestly say you have never taken a preworkout combination that boosted your workout to the point where you without a doubt felt the difference and it stood out as plain as day?

I never said pre work out supps aren't effective, or useful.
I am no Marshall there.
I hold nutrition and supplementation in the highest regard-especially prewo and powo-they may be the only 2 shakes I have in a day.

I have a piece of nicorette gum in my mouth right now 2 mgs and have used it off and on for over 10 years.:D Caffeine is my god.

When growing I NEVER and I mean NEVER have a low blood amino or sugar level I can tell you that.

My point was that you can over load the system with too much too fast and get too complicated-and didn't want to see the young guys spending their chicken and steak money on exotic.

How much better is BCAA's than whey hydro or how much better is waixy maize than malto or dextrose or glucose? how much better is an EAA than liquid egg whites? How much better is CEE than C Mono?

These are the things that add up.
 
Take a look at this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8929583&dopt=Abstract

Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading.

Vandenberghe K, Gillis N, Van Leemputte M, Van Hecke P, Vanstapel F, Hespel P.

Faculty of Physical Education and Physiotherapy, Department of Kinesiology, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Belgium.

This study aimed to compare the effects of oral creatine (Cr) supplementation with creatine supplementation in combination with caffeine (Cr+C) on muscle phosphocreatine (PCr) level and performance in healthy male volunteers (n = 9). Before and after 6 days of placebo, Cr (0.5 g x kg-1 x day-1), or Cr (0.5 g x kg-1 x day-1) + C (5 mg x kg-1 x day-1) supplementation, 31P-nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy of the gastrocnemius muscle and a maximal intermittent exercise fatigue test of the knee extensors on an isokinetic dynamometer were performed. The exercise consisted of three consecutive maximal isometric contractions and three interval series of 90, 80, and 50 maximal voluntary contractions performed with a rest interval of 2 min between the series. Muscle ATP concentration remained constant over the three experimental conditions. Cr and Cr+C increased (P < 0.05) muscle PCr concentration by 4-6%. Dynamic torque production, however, was increased by 10-23% (P < 0.05) by Cr but was not changed by Cr+C. Torque improvement during Cr was most prominent immediately after the 2-min rest between the exercise bouts. The data show that Cr supplementation elevates muscle PCr concentration and markedly improves performance during intense intermittent exercise. This ergogenic effect, however, is completely eliminated by caffeine intake.

There are probably atleast 20 other studies that show no significant detriment using creatine and caffeine together.

Doing 90, 80, 50 reps of max voluntary contractions should show no benefit from creatine period. Soemthing is very wrong with this research, these are endurance test and creatine doesn't do shit for endurance. Max power output yes endurance no. Try looking up some studies with creatine+caffeine and windgate testing, or vertical jump or something that measures power.

Full Belly,

Yes I do recall that I think all that info is in the leucine thread. I have been using alanine for a while, I also use glycine pre/during workout cause eaa's just taste like shit. I do the eaa +5 grms bcaa's +5 grams leucine +5 grams taurine post with vitargo. Great for recovery.
 
Bold below

I want to take this in possibly another direction..... and aim this at Aesop if he doesnt mind and has some time... (Anyone else who would like to chime in on this one is welcome also, but it must be in depth and have reasoning for everything)

If you could put together your perfect preworkout supplement to boost mental focus, energy, ATP production, and muscular endurance.... what would it be and WHY each ingredient and what synergistic effects would any of the combination have?



Bare minimum would be ideb, carnosine, alcar, nac and alanine and creatine if you wish and a good stim. I have to keep some secrets for my own self interest so I don't really want to go into detail.

During workout:
2 grams alanine
5 grams glycine (can be made into any of the essential amino's but doesn't taste like shit like eaa's do)
 
Bold below

I want to take this in possibly another direction..... and aim this at Aesop if he doesnt mind and has some time... (Anyone else who would like to chime in on this one is welcome also, but it must be in depth and have reasoning for everything)

If you could put together your perfect preworkout supplement to boost mental focus, energy, ATP production, and muscular endurance.... what would it be and WHY each ingredient and what synergistic effects would any of the combination have?

i suppose i could try another shullter instead of vitargo, i just havent really gotten around to it...i havent really experienced a blood sugar crash with the vitargo so i right now i see no reason to change it... i a always looking for something new to try and maybe this will be next... go any suggestions?

i use the theophennalline and theobromine in place of caffien rght now... i really like the way it make s me feel, you would have to try it to know what i am talking about... both od these are derived from caffien i belive? like i said befor i am very sensative to stims of any sort and caffien makes me all jittery, and i dont get that from the stack of theo's....

ya i feel the muscle better when it is less pumped and i can squeez and contract it much more effectivly as well.... when my legs are too pumped i am just going through the movements withut feeling much....

here a little about idebenone, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idebenone
animal has a host of info about it as well, he's got a site called
chemicalanarchy.com more info than you can shake a stick at.....you can purchase alot of these supps from him as well...

the LBS's are phils liquid beef aminos...... been using them for a few weeks now...
 
i suppose i could try another shullter instead of vitargo, i just havent really gotten around to it...i havent really experienced a blood sugar crash with the vitargo so i right now i see no reason to change it... i a always looking for something new to try and maybe this will be next... go any suggestions?

i use the theophennalline and theobromine in place of caffien rght now... i really like the way it make s me feel, you would have to try it to know what i am talking about... both od these are derived from caffien i belive? like i said befor i am very sensative to stims of any sort and caffien makes me all jittery, and i dont get that from the stack of theo's....

ya i feel the muscle better when it is less pumped and i can squeez and contract it much more effectivly as well.... when my legs are too pumped i am just going through the movements withut feeling much....

here a little about idebenone, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idebenone
animal has a host of info about it as well, he's got a site called
chemicalanarchy.com more info than you can shake a stick at.....you can purchase alot of these supps from him as well...

the LBS's are phils liquid beef aminos...... been using them for a few weeks now...
Theobromine is also found in high concentration in cocoa. it acts on the brain to release more endorphins.......so it should make you feel good. This is one of the reason people tend to binge on chocolate.......makes em feel good. So it would fall into the category of stimulants. The ancient INCA and Myans discovered the cocoa tree and it's properties. They use to boil it up at the evening rituals and sit around and drink a crude form of hot chocolate, it was very bitter as they had no sugar then. But they were all very happy afterward.
 
I never said pre work out supps aren't effective, or useful.
I am no Marshall there.
I hold nutrition and supplementation in the highest regard-especially prewo and powo-they may be the only 2 shakes I have in a day.

I have a piece of nicorette gum in my mouth right now 2 mgs and have used it off and on for over 10 years.:D Caffeine is my god.

When growing I NEVER and I mean NEVER have a low blood amino or sugar level I can tell you that.

My point was that you can over load the system with too much too fast and get too complicated-and didn't want to see the young guys spending their chicken and steak money on exotic.

How much better is BCAA's than whey hydro or how much better is waixy maize than malto or dextrose or glucose? how much better is an EAA than liquid egg whites? How much better is CEE than C Mono?

These are the things that add up.

i understand what you are saying here, although i dont think any new members here will think this is a must to grow... we are speaking of high level performance here and i think it is very usefull and interesting to debate...

now if you asked a olympic athlete or a professional athlete (or their trainers and nutritionalist) if bcaa's are worth the hassel over a whey, or if waxy is betteer than dex. i think they would tell you yes... in the high levels of sports performance the littlest edge can make a huge differance.... now if the average joe bulking or cutting asked me that question i would tell him no way! like you i would tell him to spend his hard earned dollars on meat and fresh produce...

it is kind of the same as all the youngsters taking all the exotic anabolics thinking they need masterone, tren, primo, hgh, igf, var and winny to prep for their first local show in the middleweight division... if you asked a top national competitor or pro they would prob tell you that most of those are needed to obtain an edge....

i really like learning about all of these supps for a few reasons, 1 they are not drugs and can be legally purchased and used, 2 we are getting intelligent people on here to discuss somthing that has not been kicked around the block 100 times befor, 3 i am learning a lot

i think we need more threads like this, i thnk it sets a good example for new commers to learn about something other then drugs and "how to counter the sides of 5 anadrol day"

no disrespect intended here at all massive g, i really agree with your approach on spending money on food befor the supps and drugs.
 
i suppose i could try another shullter instead of vitargo, i just havent really gotten around to it...i havent really experienced a blood sugar crash with the vitargo so i right now i see no reason to change it... i a always looking for something new to try and maybe this will be next... go any suggestions?

i use the theophennalline and theobromine in place of caffien rght now... i really like the way it make s me feel, you would have to try it to know what i am talking about... both od these are derived from caffien i belive? like i said befor i am very sensative to stims of any sort and caffien makes me all jittery, and i dont get that from the stack of theo's....

ya i feel the muscle better when it is less pumped and i can squeez and contract it much more effectivly as well.... when my legs are too pumped i am just going through the movements withut feeling much....

here a little about idebenone, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idebenone
animal has a host of info about it as well, he's got a site called
chemicalanarchy.com more info than you can shake a stick at.....you can purchase alot of these supps from him as well...

the LBS's are phils liquid beef aminos...... been using them for a few weeks now...

I don't think you need to use a shuttle at all per se. If vitargo doesn't give you (km2000) issues with a crash during, then no reason to change. Uptake of carbs and AA's is dramatically increased solely by exercising, I just use glycerol and a bit of honey in the preworkout drink and warm up on the bike/elliptical for ten minutes preworkout to start the blood flow and increase nutrient uptake.

KM, I have another herb that I think you will like.
 
There are probably atleast 20 other studies that show no significant detriment using creatine and caffeine together.
............................................
Soemthing is very wrong with this research, these are endurance test and creatine doesn't do shit for endurance....

You are right on this i didn't remember someting i read somewhere about the amount of caffeine who interferes in creatine use: more than 400 mg/day (4 STRONG coffees) for a 180 pounds individual (+5mg/KG of bodyweight).

I found the "wrong" in the study as you suspected ,it's explained here P.E.:

http://www.thefactsaboutfitness.com/news/coff_creat.htm

....................................................................
Can I use creatine and caffeine together?

Back in 1996, researchers from Katholieke Universiteit Leuven in Belgium showed that caffeine interferes with some of the performance-enhancing effects of creatine [7].

They supplemented a group of nine healthy male volunteers for six days with creatine, creatine and caffeine, or a placebo. Creatine increased muscular performance by 10-23%.

However, when creatine was combined with caffeine, the caffeine appeared to "block" the performance-enhancing effects of creatine. Creatine and caffeine taken together both raised creatine levels in the muscle to the same extent as creatine alone. But it was only the latter treatment that improved performance.

In a later study, the same research group thinks they've found out why it happens [3]. A group of ten men took part in five different trials. Each trial was separated by five weeks.

• Four days of creatine loading at 20 grams per day.

• Three days of caffeine intake at 5 milligrams per kilogram (2.2 pounds) of bodyweight.

• Creatine loading plus caffeine intake (a combination of the first two treatments).

• A single dose of 5 milligrams of caffeine per kilogram (2.2 pounds) of bodyweight before exercise.

• Placebo.

Before and after each treatment, the researchers measured the contraction and relaxation time of the quadriceps (the muscles on the front of your thigh) during electrically stimulated muscle contractions.

Why is relaxation time important? The quicker a muscle can relax, the quicker it can contract again. This might offer a benefit during certain types of sport, especially those involving sprinting.

Five days of creatine loading shortened relaxation time. Three days of caffeine intake, on the other hand, with or without creatine, increased relaxation times by approximately 10%. But a single dose of caffeine had little impact on relaxation time compared to the placebo.

But this doesn't mean that creatine and caffeine should never be used together. It's important to remember that both studies used very large doses of caffeine (five milligrams of caffeine per kilogram of bodyweight).

For someone weighing 180 pounds (around 82 kilograms), that's more than 400 milligrams of caffeine. To put this figure in context, one cup of coffee contains 65-115 milligrams of caffeine. Soft drinks contain 10–50 milligrams of caffeine per 12-ounce serving.


What's more, previous research has used creatine dissolved in warm caffeinated drinks, such as coffee or tea. In other words, only high doses of caffeine have been shown to interfere with the performance-enhancing effects of creatine. A cup of coffee or tea won't have the same negative impact.

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References
1. Graham, T.E., Hibbert, E., & Sathasivam, P. (1998). Metabolic and exercise endurance effects of coffee and caffeine ingestion. Journal of Applied Physiology, 85, 883-889
2. Harris, R.C, Soderlund, K., & Hultman, E. (1992). Elevation of creatine in resting and exercised muscle of normal subjects by creatine supplementation. Clinical Science, 83, 367-374
3. Hespel, P., Op't Eijnde, B., & Van Leemputte, M. (2002). Opposite actions of caffeine and creatine on muscle relaxation time in humans. Journal of Applied Physiology, 92, 513-518
4. Preen, D., Dawson, B., Goodman, C., Lawrence, S., Beilby, J., & Ching, S. (2002). Pre-exercise oral creatine ingestion does not improve prolonged intermittent sprint exercise in humans. Journal of Sports Medicine and Physical Fitness, 42, 320-329
5. Robinson, T.M., Sewell, D.A., Hultman, E., & Greenhaff, P.L. (1999). Role of submaximal exercise in promoting creatine and glycogen accumulation in human skeletal muscle. Journal of Applied Physiology, 87, 598-604
6. Vandebuerie, F., Vanden Eynde, B., Vandenberghe, K., & Hespel, P. (1998). Effect of creatine loading on endurance capacity and sprint power in cyclists. International Journal of Sports Medicine, 19, 490-495
7. Vandenberghe, K., N. Gillis, M. Van Leemputte, P. Van Hecke, F. Vanstapel, and P. Hespel. (1996). Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading. Journal of Applied Physiology, 80, 452-457
-----------------------------------------------------------

So finnaly caffeine interferes in creatine action but ONLY in case of HIGH caffeine daily intake.
 
i understand what you are saying here, although i dont think any new members here will think this is a must to grow... we are speaking of high level performance here and i think it is very usefull and interesting to debate...

now if you asked a olympic athlete or a professional athlete (or their trainers and nutritionalist) if bcaa's are worth the hassel over a whey, or if waxy is betteer than dex. i think they would tell you yes... in the high levels of sports performance the littlest edge can make a huge differance.... now if the average joe bulking or cutting asked me that question i would tell him no way! like you i would tell him to spend his hard earned dollars on meat and fresh produce...

it is kind of the same as all the youngsters taking all the exotic anabolics thinking they need masterone, tren, primo, hgh, igf, var and winny to prep for their first local show in the middleweight division... if you asked a top national competitor or pro they would prob tell you that most of those are needed to obtain an edge....

i really like learning about all of these supps for a few reasons, 1 they are not drugs and can be legally purchased and used, 2 we are getting intelligent people on here to discuss somthing that has not been kicked around the block 100 times befor, 3 i am learning a lot

i think we need more threads like this, i thnk it sets a good example for new commers to learn about something other then drugs and "how to counter the sides of 5 anadrol day"

no disrespect intended here at all massive g, i really agree with your approach on spending money on food befor the supps and drugs.

Well put..but how do you counter the sides of 5 anadrol per day? (i need to know this in case i ever go mental and decide to try this lol)

Yea i got tired of all the stupid threads myself, thats why iv been initiating all different topics i can come up with for discussion.
 
Last edited:
I don't think you need to use a shuttle at all per se. If vitargo doesn't give you (km2000) issues with a crash during, then no reason to change. Uptake of carbs and AA's is dramatically increased solely by exercising, I just use glycerol and a bit of honey in the preworkout drink and warm up on the bike/elliptical for ten minutes preworkout to start the blood flow and increase nutrient uptake.

KM, I have another herb that I think you will like.

Another SIMPLE solution/method that is right in front of you, and makes so much sense that it just slips right by you and you never think of it! Exercise(blood flow) enduced nutrient transport! I now do 2 warmup sets because i have noticed somethikng like this! When i bench for example on incline, i always do 5-6 reps with 135 then PUT IT DOWN. I wait a minute THEN do my warmup set of 12-20 reps and it seems INCREDIBLY lighter than the first time i picked it up. I do this for all workouts now.

However, you DONT feel a shuttle would assist in uptake and effeciency? Insulin (or insulin mimetics) can be very effective in inreasing uptake. The Vitargo will obviously cause a large spike, which will drastically increase uptake. Considering who i work for, i do know of a few VERY potent insulin mimetics that are proven to increase uptake that could be of assistance. 4-hydroxy-isoleucine is one that i know of that does this very well, although i dont know how available for purchase this is.
 
Theobromine is also found in high concentration in cocoa. it acts on the brain to release more endorphins.......so it should make you feel good. This is one of the reason people tend to binge on chocolate.......makes em feel good. So it would fall into the category of stimulants. The ancient INCA and Myans discovered the cocoa tree and it's properties. They use to boil it up at the evening rituals and sit around and drink a crude form of hot chocolate, it was very bitter as they had no sugar then. But they were all very happy afterward.

Let me ask another question here that somebody could possibly answer......

I love utalizing neuraltransmitter stimulants and mood enhancing hormone (seratonin, dopamine, norepinephrine)stimulating ingredients.

Is it possible to take TOO many neural stimulants (aimed at increasing neuraltransmitter activity) and euphoric stimulating ingredients? Could something be damaged or your body become dependant on them?
 
animal

TP4U
animal; has his own site chemicalanarchy.com
his was the site that dante launched cycles for pennies on be fore they fell out over protein sales.
he is very forward thinking, and backs everything up with studies..
he doesnt suffer silly questions and as aesop will attest alot of the guys over there are very well educated in the bio realm. his kits for powder are the most painless ever and he sources alot of natural and preventative items.
some dont get on well with him but he has helped me out numerous times


Who exactly is animal? I see his name thrown around a lot here and there. Where can i find his articles and posts?
 
Another SIMPLE solution/method that is right in front of you, and makes so much sense that it just slips right by you and you never think of it! Exercise(blood flow) enduced nutrient transport! I now do 2 warmup sets because i have noticed somethikng like this! When i bench for example on incline, i always do 5-6 reps with 135 then PUT IT DOWN. I wait a minute THEN do my warmup set of 12-20 reps and it seems INCREDIBLY lighter than the first time i picked it up. I do this for all workouts now.

However, you DONT feel a shuttle would assist in uptake and effeciency? Insulin (or insulin mimetics) can be very effective in inreasing uptake. The Vitargo will obviously cause a large spike, which will drastically increase uptake. Considering who i work for, i do know of a few VERY potent insulin mimetics that are proven to increase uptake that could be of assistance. 4-hydroxy-isoleucine is one that i know of that does this very well, although i dont know how available for purchase this is.

I know the 4-hydroxy works because it makes me go hypo during weight workouts if I don't drink a carb drink during the workout. For my own goals interests I would rather not drink carbs during workout. 4 hydroxy-isoleucine is easily obtained I believe it is extracted from fenugreek. A pure source may or may not be difficult to find, I haven't looked.

Regarding the question on supps that boost neurotransmitters: of course you can over do it. Have you ever heard of amphetamine induced psychosis? Or been friends with someone who used extacy excessively? This has to due with abuse of amphetamines repeatedly not only to promote wakefulness but when used to get high. This will pass when coming of the amphetamines for a period of time which allows brain function to return to somewhat normal, but some people are permanently changed from their drug use.

I have used a few potent "natural" amphetamine like substances like your "cytolean." They work great but I have noticed with daily use I start to notice a change in mood, sex drive etc. This is a good thing to watch for to prevent sides from using potent stimulants. Also using herbs like rhodiola rosea will help balance serotonin levels, and taking a couple of grams of tryptophan at night will support restful sleep and healthy levels of serotonin.
 
Damn things are really getting scientific these days... :eek: :eek:
Most of the supps listed of this thread (which btw is very interesting) I've never heard of! :p

But to answer your question, TP4U, and even if I wouldn't be able to explain why it works in details, I know nicotine is by far the best energizer I've ever used... tons of energy and great mental focus ALL DAY LONG, workouts included. I don't smoke so I use patches (but only when I'm dieting).

Now as everyone knows, nicotine as many vicious side effects, especially on your heart. So I wouldn't recommend it to anyone... :cool:
 
Now as everyone knows, nicotine as many vicious side effects, especially on your heart. So I wouldn't recommend it to anyone... :cool:

You know I have the exact opposite from nictoine....I get so tired when I was dieting and would throw a dip in.......It would make me go to sleep everytime...
 
FYI - idebenone is on sale at bulknutrition.com now

**broken link removed**
 
Amino's are great preworkout for an anabolic environment and protein synthesis, but what does it do to boost performance? Is that ALL you take preworkout?

Hmmm...looking at oldfella's latest avatar, I'd have to say he's used lots of cocaine as his preworkout stimulant! :p :D
 

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