PreWO Insulin, Timing and How to Calculate Dosage

[Serotoninskeptic]

Depends on the carb intake. Currently I use more PWO than pre workout. But that’s simply because I am taking in a lot more carbs in that window.

Scrolling through your posts a bit, I find it super cool that you got to work with Milos, that dudes a legend. Im curious if you could share a bit more about how your diet was structured with him? I know you’ve said it was the most food you’ve ever had to consume, on-top of some hefty carb shakes during training.

But how many carbs were you taking in from simple sugars vs. basic bodybuilding sources like rice, oats, etc? From what it sounds like you were pounding a shitload of dates, karbolyn and kid’s cereal lol. You mentioned he would have you taking in >200g simple carbs almost immediately after training! Were your other meals also so loaded with sugar? Or was it limited to the training window, and the rest of your meals were more basic (i.e. chicken and rice).

Hope this doesnt come off as me trying to mimic Milos’ exact protocol or overcomplicate it in any way. Just curious and like to learn about other’s experiences throughout their bodybuilding career, especially with such a notable coach.

 

[bbxtreme]

Scrolling through your posts a bit, I find it super cool that you got to work with Milos, that dudes a legend. Im curious if you could share a bit more about how your diet was structured with him? I know you’ve said it was the most food you’ve ever had to consume, on-top of some hefty carb shakes during training.

But how many carbs were you taking in from simple sugars vs. basic bodybuilding sources like rice, oats, etc? From what it sounds like you were pounding a shitload of dates, karbolyn and kid’s cereal lol. You mentioned he would have you taking in >200g simple carbs almost immediately after training! Were your other meals also so loaded with sugar? Or was it limited to the training window, and the rest of your meals were more basic (i.e. chicken and rice).

Hope this doesnt come off as me trying to mimic Milos’ exact protocol or overcomplicate it in any way. Just curious and like to learn about other’s experiences throughout their bodybuilding career, especially with such a notable coach.

I have shared as much as I have permission to share on here. But the main carbs and simple sugars like dextrose are all used in the workout window- pre- intra and post. The 200g PWO was the big push.

The remaining meals were regular meals with high protein and carbs. We never got to adding fats outside of trace amounts as I was growing so they weren’t needed.

 

[tommyguns2]

It's my understanding that you want to maximize glycogen synthesis with the extra carbs. But if you've got more carbs than your body can handle (e.g., a 200lb guy carbing up on average can't take in as much as an average 250lb guy carbing up), aren't you just asking for additional bodyfat? Insulin is a transport hormone. It's gonna transport, first into the cells, and if those are saturated, then to adipose tissue. Not really sure taking anyone else's protocol makes a lot of sense. Some guys can shuttle a truck load of carbs, and others can't. Seems like the smart way to go is to start at a smaller amount, and slowly increase to find out where your threshold is.

As I understand it, the average guy can store roughly 400-500 grams of muscle glycogen total. That's average. You might be average, above average, or below average. You really don't know until you try it out yourself. Once your muscle glycogen stores are saturated, extra glucose in the bloodstream will be shuttled to the only place it can go. To storage (fat).

So you need to find out how many carbs you can store, and make sure your training volume is significant to ensure you're pretty depleted of glycogen after your workout, so that you're actually using all those carbs. Otherwise, you're gonna get fluffy.

 

[plane]

It's my understanding that you want to maximize glycogen synthesis with the extra carbs. But if you've got more carbs than your body can handle (e.g., a 200lb guy carbing up on average can't take in as much as an average 250lb guy carbing up), aren't you just asking for additional bodyfat? Insulin is a transport hormone. It's gonna transport, first into the cells, and if those are saturated, then to adipose tissue. Not really sure taking anyone else's protocol makes a lot of sense. Some guys can shuttle a truck load of carbs, and others can't. Seems like the smart way to go is to start at a smaller amount, and slowly increase to find out where your threshold is.

As I understand it, the average guy can store roughly 400-500 grams of muscle glycogen total. That's average. You might be average, above average, or below average. You really don't know until you try it out yourself. Once your muscle glycogen stores are saturated, extra glucose in the bloodstream will be shuttled to the only place it can go. To storage (fat).

So you need to find out how many carbs you can store, and make sure your training volume is significant to ensure you're pretty depleted of glycogen after your workout, so that you're actually using all those carbs. Otherwise, you're gonna get fluffy.

WHEN YOU INJECT INSULIN YOU DONT ADD EXTRA CARBS FOR EVERY IU OF INSULIN,

IF YOU HAVE ALREADY CALCULATED YOUR CARB TOTAL TO GROW/OFF SEASON,

YOU JUST EAT THE SAME AS YOU ALREADY ARE AND TAKE INSULIN WITH YOUR CARB MEALS.

THE INSULIN HELPS YOU ABSORB YOUR CURRENT NUTRITION BETTER

YOU CAN ADD A FEW IU PER MEAL, OR YOU CAN USE PRE/POST

IT DOESNT MATTER

WE ADD GH THEN EAT OUR MEAL THEN WE ADD INSULIN TO GET EXTRA IGF-1

WHEN WE INJECT GH WHEN SLIN IS ACTIVE = IGF-1

THE ENTIRE POINT OF GH + SLIN = POOR MANS IGF-1

 

[Serotoninskeptic]

WHEN YOU INJECT INSULIN YOU DONT ADD EXTRA CARBS FOR EVERY IU OF INSULIN,

IF YOU HAVE ALREADY CALCULATED YOUR CARB TOTAL TO GROW/OFF SEASON,

YOU JUST EAT THE SAME AS YOU ALREADY ARE AND TAKE INSULIN WITH YOUR CARB MEALS.

THE INSULIN HELPS YOU ABSORB YOUR CURRENT NUTRITION BETTER

YOU CAN ADD A FEW IU PER MEAL, OR YOU CAN USE PRE/POST

IT DOESNT MATTER

WE ADD GH THEN EAT OUR MEAL THEN WE ADD INSULIN TO GET EXTRA IGF-1

WHEN WE INJECT GH WHEN SLIN IS ACTIVE = IGF-1

THE ENTIRE POINT OF GH + SLIN = POOR MANS IGF-1

Insulin mainly functions as a tool for nutrient partitioning. Theres many reasons we use it outside of just promoting IGF-1. And GHR stays elevated in the liver over a >24hr window of insulin exposure so it doesn't really matter when you take the GH. The idea that you need to take them together is old school dogma.

 

[plane]

Insulin mainly functions as a tool for nutrient partitioning. Theres many reasons we use it outside of just promoting IGF-1. And GHR stays elevated in the liver over a >24hr window of insulin exposure so it doesn't really matter when you take the GH. The idea that you need to take them together is old school dogma.

I literally wrote what you said, nutrition partioning and "HELPS ABSORB YOUR CURRENT NUTRITION BETTER" are the same thing

I wrote how it's done, practically - you write some scientific nonsense you google.

I wrote it doesn't MATTER when you take it as well, which was your second point .

Are you fucking stupid?

 

[Serotoninskeptic]

I literally wrote what you said, nutrition partioning and "HELPS ABSORB YOUR CURRENT NUTRITION BETTER" are the same thing

I wrote how it's done, practically - you write some scientific nonsense you google.

I wrote it doesn't MATTER when you take it as well, which was your second point .

Are you fucking stupid?

“WE ADD GH THEN EAT OUR MEAL THEN WE ADD INSULIN TO GET EXTRA IGF-1

WHEN WE INJECT GH WHEN SLIN IS ACTIVE = IGF-1

THE ENTIRE POINT OF GH + SLIN = POOR MANS IGF-1”

I was responding to this point.You said to inject GH when slin is active, I assumed you meant they must be taken together which is of course not necessary. And claiming the entire point of GH + slin is for “poor man’s IGF-1.” Even though those two drugs have infinite other beneficial effects for bodybuilding independently of weather or not they increase IGF-1.

Also please calm down. I wasn’t attacking you. And typing in all caps isn’t getting your point across any better

 

[Serotoninskeptic]

All things insulin- my take, opinion and experience.

My take and experience on insulin What the hell do I know and why do I know it? I have been bodybuilding since I was 15 years old, a member here learning since 2007 and as my username implies am extreme and passionate about the sport. As a teenager I got 3 training/nutrition certifications to...

www.professionalmuscle.com

Hey @bbxtreme , sorry just wanted to ask if you could clarify one more thing from this thread.

“Meal one, 15-20 units insulin at home 75g carbs from dates, then drank the difference during my workout”

Does this imply “Meal one” was a separate meal (like a lean protein, carb meal) followed by the insulin dose and then snack of dates pre + the intra shake later?

Or are you saying the dates WERE your first meal, and you didnt have any protein pre-workout or any other solid meals before this?

 

[plane]

“WE ADD GH THEN EAT OUR MEAL THEN WE ADD INSULIN TO GET EXTRA IGF-1

WHEN WE INJECT GH WHEN SLIN IS ACTIVE = IGF-1

THE ENTIRE POINT OF GH + SLIN = POOR MANS IGF-1”

I was responding to this point.You said to inject GH when slin is active, I assumed you meant they must be taken together which is of course not necessary. And claiming the entire point of GH + slin is for “poor man’s IGF-1.” Even though those two drugs have infinite other beneficial effects for bodybuilding independently of weather or not they increase IGF-1.

Also please calm down. I wasn’t attacking you. And typing in all caps isn’t getting your point across any better

Sorry friend

 

[bbxtreme]

Hey @bbxtreme , sorry just wanted to ask if you could clarify one more thing from this thread.

“Meal one, 15-20 units insulin at home 75g carbs from dates, then drank the difference during my workout”

Does this imply “Meal one” was a separate meal (like a lean protein, carb meal) followed by the insulin dose and then snack of dates pre + the intra shake later?

Or are you saying the dates WERE your first meal, and you didnt have any protein pre-workout or any other solid meals before this?

Maybe you misunderstood my reply to you above.

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but if you want to know Milos’s methods then you need to go pay him to coach you.

I’ll say again what I have said in many threads on here- people way overcomplicate insulin.

 

[control]

Are you fucking stupid?

Coming from someone that types in all caps...

 

[need4tren]

Someone who has used a ton of insulin in the past, I haven’t done this in a decade, but it was 100iu of lantus in the morning, 25iu pre and post, Sometimes morning I’d do 15iu

Haven’t used insulin in 2 years. Just put in 5iu post workout last night and upped my gh by 3iu and I woke up 10 pounds heavier

 

[Serotoninskeptic]

Someone who has used a ton of insulin in the past, I haven’t done this in a decade, but it was 100iu of lantus in the morning, 25iu pre and post, Sometimes morning I’d do 15iu

Haven’t used insulin in 2 years. Just put in 5iu post workout last night and upped my gh by 3iu and I woke up 10 pounds heavier

I think you’ve used more insulin than just about anyone else in this forum

In another thread I think you mentioned reaching 300 IU lantus a day? Or 100-200 IU lantus + Humalog either every meal. Just absolutely absurd numbers.

I cant imagine how many carbs you would have to eat to maintain that. I think the pumps would be so painful it'd be impossible to train with that much fullness lol.

 

[need4tren]

I think you’ve used more insulin than just about anyone else in this forum

In another thread I think you mentioned reaching 300 IU lantus a day? Or 100-200 IU lantus + Humalog either every meal. Just absolutely absurd numbers.

I cant imagine how many carbs you would have to eat to maintain that. I think the pumps would be so painful it'd be impossible to train with that much fullness lol.

I’ve used outrageous amounts of insulin in my early 20s, I’ve pushed 35iu of rapid insulin pre and post for a short period of time, i tried up to 300iu of lantus for very short period of time, I wouldn’t advise it, nor would I advise using 2.1g of tren ace a week. But I did it,my body was able to tolerate it when I was young. I did hit 285 for the first time at 24 years old back then. But if I could go back in time I would cause it definitely limited my growth pushing such high doses so early

 

[Splitzz]

I’ve used outrageous amounts of insulin in my early 20s, I’ve pushed 35iu of rapid insulin pre and post for a short period of time, i tried up to 300iu of lantus for very short period of time, I wouldn’t advise it, nor would I advise using 2.1g of tren ace a week. But I did it,my body was able to tolerate it when I was young. I did hit 285 for the first time at 24 years old back then. But if I could go back in time I would cause it definitely limited my growth pushing such high doses so early

Damn bro, talk about pushing the limits. Glad you made it out ok

 

[need4tren]

Damn bro, talk about pushing the limits. Glad you made it out ok

I didn’t have top tier genetics, but I did have top tier resilience, even on peak orals (50mg halo, 40mg superdrol,200mg winstrol) my liver enzymes never broke 100 alt, the worst my liver ever been was on doctor prescribed 160mg of accurate and that was around 110 alt, haven’t touched any orals in what must be 4-5 years, tren I can’t go over 200mg without feeling sides, but all heart scans are perfect and perfect calcium score so I was lucky

 

[VipRoids]

Pre-workout slin is a scalpel, not a sledgehammer. If you’re asking how to calculate the dose, you probably shouldn't be pinning it yet.

The biggest mistake guys make isn't the units of Humalog, it's the carbohydrate timing. You need a minimum of 10g of high-glycemic carbs per IU, but you have to account for the peak activity. If you pin 15 mins before training, you better have those intra-workout carbs sipping throughout the entire session.

Don't rely on 'feeling' the hypo. By the time you're cold-sweating and shaking, your CNS is already redlining. Keep a glucose gel pack in your gym bag and never train alone when using slin. It’s the best anabolic on earth, but it’s also the only one that can put you in a box before the workout is over. Stay safe.

 

[A50#]

Check out Mike Arnolds Ultimate Insulin Protocol, the original and the update. May not be entirely for u but you can tweak it to your particular needs.

 

[pesty4077]

Pre-workout slin is a scalpel, not a sledgehammer. If you’re asking how to calculate the dose, you probably shouldn't be pinning it yet.

The biggest mistake guys make isn't the units of Humalog, it's the carbohydrate timing. You need a minimum of 10g of high-glycemic carbs per IU, but you have to account for the peak activity. If you pin 15 mins before training, you better have those intra-workout carbs sipping throughout the entire session.

Don't rely on 'feeling' the hypo. By the time you're cold-sweating and shaking, your CNS is already redlining. Keep a glucose gel pack in your gym bag and never train alone when using slin. It’s the best anabolic on earth, but it’s also the only one that can put you in a box before the workout is over. Stay safe.

You do know we are an advanced board? If you do a simple search, you will see loads of information on this subject.

As far as putting you in a box, where do you come up with that? Insulin overdose is extremely rare. Your chances of an accidental death is far greater.

 

[VipRoids]

You do know we are an advanced board? If you do a simple search, you will see loads of information on this subject.

As far as putting you in a box, where do you come up with that? Insulin overdose is extremely rare. Your chances of an accidental death is far greater.

Fair point, @pesty4077 . I sometimes forget the caliber of experience on this board compared to others. I’ll keep the 'safety lectures' for the rookies elsewhere and stick to the more nuanced data here.

As for the 'box' comment, maybe it's just my own paranoia from seeing one too many close calls in the local scene, but I'll take your word on the stats. Let's get back to the actual timing protocols anyone here prefer Lantus over Humalog for a slower, more stable basal during a long growth phase?