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Primo vs tren/mast

How long have you been on EQ nonstop? It's one of my favorites and being one of the milder compounds, I always thought it was one of the safer anabolics, except for a couple of issues some people experience. For the last few years, I had been using it 8-9 months out of the year at varying dosages. It's this year that I hear for the first time that it can have a negative impact on the kidneys. So now I was looking at possibly using Primo in Its place but then I read it can really lower HDL, which mine tends to be all the time. At my age I'm trying to decrease use of harsher compounds and stick to milder compounds that I can use for longer periods of time if I choose.
At least 2 years now. Once in a while I switch my compounds around when I want try something else. Test EQ is usually my basic. You can go back into my prior posts and see my blood work. I did have some slight issues. My doctor does my blood work every 3 months so we steadily corrected it. Definitely suggest getting blood work done and consulting a doctor if you run these kind of cycles.
 
Where have you read that? Not that it's healthy for our kidneys, but I can't ever recall reading anything pointing towards it being more harmful than any other aas.

But primobolan is probably the least harmful aas for most users. But use of anything above TRT/HRT for most of the year can have deleterious effects.
I am not a Victor Black follower, and I don't remember exact wording, but someone mentioned him saying it could be bad for the kidneys. I know B-Boy follows him and I believe he backed off his EQ use if I'm not mistaken. If you look around (search engine) a few things pop up on other forums. Same with DHB. I have four bottles I recently received and I'm holding off a bit before using them until I do more research and feel comfortable using them.
 
I am not a Victor Black follower, and I don't remember exact wording, but someone mentioned him saying it could be bad for the kidneys. I know B-Boy follows him and I believe he backed off his EQ use if I'm not mistaken. If you look around (search engine) a few things pop up on other forums. Same with DHB. I have four bottles I recently received and I'm holding off a bit before using them until I do more research and feel comfortable using them.
Peter Bond fairly eviscerated Victor's case against EQ. See https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/broderick-chavez.169474/post-3024861

Also, referring to another of his frequently cited studies on Parenabol (EQ) in patients with osteoporosis, many subjects were methamphetamine addicts and alcoholics. The EQ kidney harm claim is just completely false.

I might take another look at the 1-Testo (DHB) rat study that suggested liver enlargement. It's likely they used stupidly high concentrations (things start to become very irrelevant if beyond anything relevant to us).
 
So @Type-IIx , where did we land on the whole boldenone/oxymethalone blood mass erythrocytosis, anabolic or androgen thing vs the whole nandrolone/trenbolone anabolic or androgen thing? Comparatively speaking?
 
So @Type-IIx , where did we land on the whole boldenone/oxymethalone blood mass erythrocytosis, anabolic or androgen thing vs the whole nandrolone/trenbolone anabolic or androgen thing? Comparatively speaking?
Well, first let's make sure we're talking about the same definition of androgenic.

Androgenicity can be discussed in terms of:
Endocrine effects:
- suppression of LH/FSH
- suppression of T
- suppression of SHBG
Growth of male sex organs:
- seminal vesicles
- prostate
Masculinizing effects:
- hirsutism (excessive growth of body hair)
- dysphonia (voice deepening, hoarseness)
- clitomegaly (in women)
Features deriving from androgenicity:
Anti-adipogenic mechanisms ("hardening")
Neural mechanisms in aggression ("peaking"), i.e., increased strength (a product of increased neural drive [aggression] & (as opposed to) skeletal muscle hypertrophy [anabolism, as opposed to androgenicity])

And then what do you want to know, whether EQ vs. deca vs. tren vs anadrol, which are "androgens" versus "anabolics?" And which are likely to be the more/less potent hematinic agents?
 
Oh sorry. My fault.

Increased skeletal muscle strength
and/or endurance
and/or hypertrophy
and/or decreased fatty tissue
resulting from any mechanism of the compound's action or inaction.

So right out of the gate we can throw the below list out as largely irrelevant as none pertain to the above.

Endocrine effects:
- suppression of LH/FSH
- suppression of T
- suppression of SHBG
Growth of male sex organs:
- seminal vesicles
- prostate
Masculinizing effects:
- hirsutism (excessive growth of body hair)
- dysphonia (voice deepening, hoarseness)
- clitomegaly (in women)


What remains are what you describe as 'features' of androgenicity:
Anti-adipogenic mechanisms
Neural mechanisms [of] [increased] aggression

To that I'll add
- increased blood volume and/or improved or increased vascularity
- increased oxygen delivery
- increased uptake of proteins, sugars, and any other macro or micronutrients
by and in skeletal muscle tissue or adipose tissue which would be features of what I would describe as directly anabolic in nature.

All that remains then is MY originally badly worded question which put better might be, "Of the 4 compounds I originally mentioned, which is doing the majority or minority of each function respectively?"

Thanks!
 
I am not a Victor Black follower, and I don't remember exact wording, but someone mentioned him saying it could be bad for the kidneys. I know B-Boy follows him and I believe he backed off his EQ use if I'm not mistaken. If you look around (search engine) a few things pop up on other forums. Same with DHB. I have four bottles I recently received and I'm holding off a bit before using them until I do more research and feel comfortable using them.
Oh that. Yeah Victor Black has made that claim and he posted this study as his supporting evidence. But it's littered with problems. The biggest one that jumped out at me was that there are no before measurements. Only measurements taken at the end of the 12 week period. That off the bat pretty much makes it almost useless. Apparently the participants acquired the drugs from black market so the drugs might not even be what the authors report them to be. There's other problems but that alone is enough to invalidate the claim as far as I'm concerned.

Edit: My bad. @Type-IIx already posted a far more thorough rebuttal than what I offered.
 
Oh sorry. My fault.

Increased skeletal muscle strength
and/or endurance
and/or hypertrophy
and/or decreased fatty tissue
resulting from any mechanism of the compound's action or inaction.

So right out of the gate we can throw the below list out as largely irrelevant as none pertain to the above.

Endocrine effects:
- suppression of LH/FSH
- suppression of T
- suppression of SHBG
Growth of male sex organs:
- seminal vesicles
- prostate
Masculinizing effects:
- hirsutism (excessive growth of body hair)
- dysphonia (voice deepening, hoarseness)
- clitomegaly (in women)


What remains are what you describe as 'features' of androgenicity:
Anti-adipogenic mechanisms
Neural mechanisms [of] [increased] aggression

To that I'll add
- increased blood volume and/or improved or increased vascularity
- increased oxygen delivery
- increased uptake of proteins, sugars, and any other macro or micronutrients
by and in skeletal muscle tissue or adipose tissue which would be features of what I would describe as directly anabolic in nature.

All that remains then is MY originally badly worded question which put better might be, "Of the 4 compounds I originally mentioned, which is doing the majority or minority of each function respectively?"

Thanks!
These are good questions, and frankly a lot of them are still outstanding (not yet answered) by my research. There is a study I am still seeking:

Molinari PF, Rosenkrantz H. Erythropoietic activity and androgenic implications of 29 testosterone derivatives in orchiectomized rats. J Lab Clin Med. 1971 Sep;78(3):399-410. PMID: 5092861.

Since your question is just broadly aimed at teasing out what we know about the features of these androgens I'll just give you a brain dump on them and try to mention as much about these features as at least I have learned about them.

When it comes to these compounds: EQ, Deca, Tren, Adrol: there's only good human data on 2 of them, Deca and Adrol. The Parenabol study (EQ) in humans is poor for a number of reasons, very low doses, silly outcomes measured, and very sick subjects (many were late-stage amphetamine addicts and alcoholics).

Deca is the most potent compound for skeletal muscle hypertrophy of all. Deca alters dopamine metabolism unlike T, so the psychological effects attributed to it might be at least partly explained by reduced dopamine receptor number and (in humans) increased dopamine metabolism. It is a very potent stimulator of erythropoiesis, likely stronger than Adrol at therapeutic doses and higher.

Adrol is a decent anabolic and very potent strength-increasing steroid. What's interesting about Adrol is that (Schanzer view) it may act predominantly as a prohormone to more active metabolites. C-2 attachment seems highly relevant for altering activity, e.g., with Adrol it seems to yield a potently strength-increasing androgen, likely via neural mechanisms (though frankly the connexion between androgens and neural drive is not well researched). Adrol seems to cause fluid retention and pseudo-aromatization sides, yet is not aromatizable nor 5alpha-reducible, which leaves open the question whether this feature is due primarily to a tendency to increase 17-OHP, a weak progestin (note that Adrol has no direct PR binding)... open questions include its potential for MR agonism or potential activation of RAAS. It IS a relatively potent hematinic agent as well, and used clinically for this feature (it's easy to administer/adhere to because it's orally active and works well).

EQ is a very interesting compound, primarily because so little real data exists on it that is extrapolable to man. Its metabolism causes widely divergent effects that vary substantially between individuals. My own hypothesis about EQ is that its acting for some as an anti-estrogen, for some being principally aromatized to E1 (estrone [a weak estrogen]), largely resistant to (abating rather than abolishing) aromatization is perhaps because of its secondary 17β-hydroxy group plus the C-1,2 double bond (again supporting the importance of C-2 in altering steroid behavior); given interindividual differences in 17β-HSD, I believe this is an isozyme that substantially alters its behavior between individuals. It's not particularly nephrotoxic/kidney toxic in man according to any good science. I can only speculate about its relative erythropoietic activity: it may be more potent than nandrolone at this, or it may not. It may have been primarily marketed to combat and endurance athlete for this feature because demand was low (to stimulate demand). There are anecdotes from both camps, that it is not particularly potent in augmenting HCT/Hb; and that it is particularly potent. Perhaps this is another feature deriving from wide interindividual variation.

Tren, I've already mentioned its unique features in this very thread. As for stimulating erythropoiesis or acting otherwise as a hematinic agent, big unknown. No clue honestly. It is an outstanding insulin sensitizing agent and improves (lowers) HOMA-IR as a proxy for insulin resistance. I've seen evidence in man of its lowering blood glucose concentrations (bloodwork), and evidence in animals of its lowering blood insulin concentrations... this is in addition to the very good evidence that it lowers serum IGF-I concentrations in man and animals alike. As a Δ4,9,11 steroid it slides into the AR like a knife but also has good affinity for PR, ERa/ERb. I believe it boosts strength via neural drive as well as via some GPCR/membrane bound receptor (nongenomic effects), as a potent androgen it acts like an even more potent DHT as we see it in rat/animal models, i.e., where it's not rapidly metabolized but actually relatively resistant to metabolism.
 
Tren is in a special league compared to other AAS. It’s affinity to the GCR receptor, it’s ability to increase intra cellular IGF, and possibly more satellite cells…..it’s kinda silly to run it so high you get sides and use it for an anchor.

One amp of parabolan 76.5mg per week was the old clinical guidelines.

I think 150mg is PLENTY to get all the special attributes.

Now obviously more works more to a point, and if you can sleep, not go to prison, and BP are fine, yea you can titrate up.

Im trying 20mg ace per day. Week 2. Look sharper, strength up….added 1 rep to every exercise across the board last leg day which is just silly
Have you noticed if the "asthmatic" effect has begun to creep up? In the past when I used 40mg/day and up, my breathing/cardio capacity was just shot.
 
These are good questions, and frankly a lot of them are still outstanding (not yet answered) by my research. There is a study I am still seeking:

Molinari PF, Rosenkrantz H. Erythropoietic activity and androgenic implications of 29 testosterone derivatives in orchiectomized rats. J Lab Clin Med. 1971 Sep;78(3):399-410. PMID: 5092861.

Since your question is just broadly aimed at teasing out what we know about the features of these androgens I'll just give you a brain dump on them and try to mention as much about these features as at least I have learned about them.

When it comes to these compounds: EQ, Deca, Tren, Adrol: there's only good human data on 2 of them, Deca and Adrol. The Parenabol study (EQ) in humans is poor for a number of reasons, very low doses, silly outcomes measured, and very sick subjects (many were late-stage amphetamine addicts and alcoholics).

Deca is the most potent compound for skeletal muscle hypertrophy of all. Deca alters dopamine metabolism unlike T, so the psychological effects attributed to it might be at least partly explained by reduced dopamine receptor number and (in humans) increased dopamine metabolism. It is a very potent stimulator of erythropoiesis, likely stronger than Adrol at therapeutic doses and higher.

Adrol is a decent anabolic and very potent strength-increasing steroid. What's interesting about Adrol is that (Schanzer view) it may act predominantly as a prohormone to more active metabolites. C-2 attachment seems highly relevant for altering activity, e.g., with Adrol it seems to yield a potently strength-increasing androgen, likely via neural mechanisms (though frankly the connexion between androgens and neural drive is not well researched). Adrol seems to cause fluid retention and pseudo-aromatization sides, yet is not aromatizable nor 5alpha-reducible, which leaves open the question whether this feature is due primarily to a tendency to increase 17-OHP, a weak progestin (note that Adrol has no direct PR binding)... open questions include its potential for MR agonism or potential activation of RAAS. It IS a relatively potent hematinic agent as well, and used clinically for this feature (it's easy to administer/adhere to because it's orally active and works well).

EQ is a very interesting compound, primarily because so little real data exists on it that is extrapolable to man. Its metabolism causes widely divergent effects that vary substantially between individuals. My own hypothesis about EQ is that its acting for some as an anti-estrogen, for some being principally aromatized to E1 (estrone [a weak estrogen]), largely resistant to (abating rather than abolishing) aromatization is perhaps because of its secondary 17β-hydroxy group plus the C-1,2 double bond (again supporting the importance of C-2 in altering steroid behavior); given interindividual differences in 17β-HSD, I believe this is an isozyme that substantially alters its behavior between individuals. It's not particularly nephrotoxic/kidney toxic in man according to any good science. I can only speculate about its relative erythropoietic activity: it may be more potent than nandrolone at this, or it may not. It may have been primarily marketed to combat and endurance athlete for this feature because demand was low (to stimulate demand). There are anecdotes from both camps, that it is not particularly potent in augmenting HCT/Hb; and that it is particularly potent. Perhaps this is another feature deriving from wide interindividual variation.

Tren, I've already mentioned its unique features in this very thread. As for stimulating erythropoiesis or acting otherwise as a hematinic agent, big unknown. No clue honestly. It is an outstanding insulin sensitizing agent and improves (lowers) HOMA-IR as a proxy for insulin resistance. I've seen evidence in man of its lowering blood glucose concentrations (bloodwork), and evidence in animals of its lowering blood insulin concentrations... this is in addition to the very good evidence that it lowers serum IGF-I concentrations in man and animals alike. As a Δ4,9,11 steroid it slides into the AR like a knife but also has good affinity for PR, ERa/ERb. I believe it boosts strength via neural drive as well as via some GPCR/membrane bound receptor (nongenomic effects), as a potent androgen it acts like an even more potent DHT as we see it in rat/animal models, i.e., where it's not rapidly metabolized but actually relatively resistant to metabolism.
If you hadn't posted this up, I had planned to offer what little data I've found along with my personal observations in others and myself (anecdotal). I see little point now as you pretty much nailed everything down the line. The only thing I would offer is redarding EQ, which is simply that my bloodwork showed very large in increases in RBC, Hgb, and HCT along with a significant increase in diastolic BP which I can only attribute to either a) water retention/increased plasma or b) increased blood volume/mass or some degree of both. As you said, it's difficult to say without more baseline bloodwork and isolating the effects further by EQ-only use. Even then, that doesn't rule out my personal habits with the compound itself along with other compounds. Rarely is EQ ever administered as a sole compound so even getting enough subjects to flesh that out would likely be difficult.

Anadrol. Anadrol. Anadrol. Anecdotally, this was for years one of, if not the most favorable compound to me (aside from testosterone of course). The increased strength and aggression suggests androgenic activity while the increased muscular size suggests a high level of anabolism as well. In any case, my bloodwork anomalies on both EQ and Anadrol are almost identical. It is for this reason alone that I lump both compounds together and not for any chemical or molecular reason.

Nandrolone and Trenbolone I feel you summed up very well. I have nothing to add. Trenbolone does not give me the massive increase in sebum production that nandrolone does but that may simply be due to those times when I most often use trenbolone which is during a caloric deficit. This may be an interesting personal experiment to consider in the future as nandrolone is not high on my list during a a CKD or simple caloric deficit.

I will look for that study in the meantime. I am usually fairly decent at research.

As I've been thinking about this for the past few weeks I can't help but begin to observe more and more the interpolation of anabolism as a function of androgens and to avoid trying to separate the two. This is just a philosophical viewpoint though. But it's not without logic to consider that there is no anabolism in an anti-androgenic environment which would suggest a hierarchical model where all anabolic/anti-catabolic activity is downstream AR-mediated activity in mammals.

Thanks for the reply and again, give me some time and I'll get that erythropoietic activity data to you. I'm doubly motivated as my own sec. polyscythemia condition warrants extra caution for me personally in this area of hematinics. I've avoided it for long enough so perhaps now it's time to take a closer look at this.
 
These are good questions, and frankly a lot of them are still outstanding (not yet answered) by my research. There is a study I am still seeking:

Molinari PF, Rosenkrantz H. Erythropoietic activity and androgenic implications of 29 testosterone derivatives in orchiectomized rats. J Lab Clin Med. 1971 Sep;78(3):399-410. PMID: 5092861.

Since your question is just broadly aimed at teasing out what we know about the features of these androgens I'll just give you a brain dump on them and try to mention as much about these features as at least I have learned about them.

When it comes to these compounds: EQ, Deca, Tren, Adrol: there's only good human data on 2 of them, Deca and Adrol. The Parenabol study (EQ) in humans is poor for a number of reasons, very low doses, silly outcomes measured, and very sick subjects (many were late-stage amphetamine addicts and alcoholics).

Deca is the most potent compound for skeletal muscle hypertrophy of all. Deca alters dopamine metabolism unlike T, so the psychological effects attributed to it might be at least partly explained by reduced dopamine receptor number and (in humans) increased dopamine metabolism. It is a very potent stimulator of erythropoiesis, likely stronger than Adrol at therapeutic doses and higher.

Adrol is a decent anabolic and very potent strength-increasing steroid. What's interesting about Adrol is that (Schanzer view) it may act predominantly as a prohormone to more active metabolites. C-2 attachment seems highly relevant for altering activity, e.g., with Adrol it seems to yield a potently strength-increasing androgen, likely via neural mechanisms (though frankly the connexion between androgens and neural drive is not well researched). Adrol seems to cause fluid retention and pseudo-aromatization sides, yet is not aromatizable nor 5alpha-reducible, which leaves open the question whether this feature is due primarily to a tendency to increase 17-OHP, a weak progestin (note that Adrol has no direct PR binding)... open questions include its potential for MR agonism or potential activation of RAAS. It IS a relatively potent hematinic agent as well, and used clinically for this feature (it's easy to administer/adhere to because it's orally active and works well).

EQ is a very interesting compound, primarily because so little real data exists on it that is extrapolable to man. Its metabolism causes widely divergent effects that vary substantially between individuals. My own hypothesis about EQ is that its acting for some as an anti-estrogen, for some being principally aromatized to E1 (estrone [a weak estrogen]), largely resistant to (abating rather than abolishing) aromatization is perhaps because of its secondary 17β-hydroxy group plus the C-1,2 double bond (again supporting the importance of C-2 in altering steroid behavior); given interindividual differences in 17β-HSD, I believe this is an isozyme that substantially alters its behavior between individuals. It's not particularly nephrotoxic/kidney toxic in man according to any good science. I can only speculate about its relative erythropoietic activity: it may be more potent than nandrolone at this, or it may not. It may have been primarily marketed to combat and endurance athlete for this feature because demand was low (to stimulate demand). There are anecdotes from both camps, that it is not particularly potent in augmenting HCT/Hb; and that it is particularly potent. Perhaps this is another feature deriving from wide interindividual variation.

Tren, I've already mentioned its unique features in this very thread. As for stimulating erythropoiesis or acting otherwise as a hematinic agent, big unknown. No clue honestly. It is an outstanding insulin sensitizing agent and improves (lowers) HOMA-IR as a proxy for insulin resistance. I've seen evidence in man of its lowering blood glucose concentrations (bloodwork), and evidence in animals of its lowering blood insulin concentrations... this is in addition to the very good evidence that it lowers serum IGF-I concentrations in man and animals alike. As a Δ4,9,11 steroid it slides into the AR like a knife but also has good affinity for PR, ERa/ERb. I believe it boosts strength via neural drive as well as via some GPCR/membrane bound receptor (nongenomic effects), as a potent androgen it acts like an even more potent DHT as we see it in rat/animal models, i.e., where it's not rapidly metabolized but actually relatively resistant to metabolism.
Slightly off topic: have ever seen any literature about IGF-1 expression in tissues like the skin after trenbolone administration? The question comes from observing so many people prone to MPB not losing a single hair even on moderate doses of Tren in spite of its remarkable androgenicity.
 
Just looked quickly at the DHB rodent study. I think it does likely strain hepatic clearance in man. The dosages used are roughly equivalent to 200mg weekly in man (100 kg body weight).
please post the reference, interested.
 
Slightly off topic: have ever seen any literature about IGF-1 expression in tissues like the skin after trenbolone administration? The question comes from observing so many people prone to MPB not losing a single hair even on moderate doses of Tren in spite of its remarkable androgenicity.
No, this data does not exist. But what has been demonstrated is that tren reduces systemic-liver (cIGF-I) IGF-I and increases intramuscular satellite cell responsiveness to muscular isoforms of IGF-I (mIGF-I). I believe the GH-IGF-I axis is sensitive to these local myokines and the increased mIGF-I activity in skeletal muscle signals back to reduce GH secretion. Since tren is nonaromatizable and reduces systemic cIGF-I, there is plausibly reduced IGF-I autocrine/paracrine activity in scalp by these mechanisms.
 
please post the reference, interested.
Friedel, A., Geyer, H., Kamber, M., Laudenbach-Leschowsky, U., Schänzer, W., Thevis, M., … Diel, P. (2006). 17β-Hydroxy-5alpha-androst-1-en-3-one (1-testosterone) is a potent androgen with anabolic properties. Toxicology Letters, 165(2), 149–155. doi:10.1016/j.toxlet.2006.03.001
 
Honestly primo is too many CC for me to be worth any effort. I’m not a pro BB and the thought of injecting 5-10 CC a week just never appealed to me. I’ve tried primo at about 2-300mg a week and didn’t notice much. Would rather do tren ace-mast prop-test prop blend and anavar.
 
No, this data does not exist. But what has been demonstrated is that tren reduces systemic-liver (cIGF-I) IGF-I and increases intramuscular satellite cell responsiveness to muscular isoforms of IGF-I (mIGF-I). I believe the GH-IGF-I axis is sensitive to these local myokines and the increased mIGF-I activity in skeletal muscle signals back to reduce GH secretion. Since tren is nonaromatizable and reduces systemic cIGF-I, there is plausibly reduced IGF-I autocrine/paracrine activity in scalp by these mechanisms.
In situ aromatization by exogenous Test administration would change the scenario in your opinion?
 

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