Problems with Exogenous Growth Hormone - Dr. Mauro G. Di Pasquale

[DatBtrue]

I thought it might be nice to hear from someone else besides Dat.

From: Amino Acids and Proteins for the Athlete:The Anabolic Edge, Mauro G. Di Pasquale, CRC Press 2008

Problems with Exogenous Growth Hormone

Increasing our own natural endogenous levels of GH is an effective way to get the benefits of increased GH levels and for reasons outlined below may be a natural alternative to the use of exogenous GH.

The use of recombinant or synthetic GH (the only kind available since 1985 when the possibility of prion infection resulting in Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease, a variant of mad cow disease, halted the use of GH harvested from the pituitaries of cadavers) only provides limited GH exposure.

That is because human GH represents a family of proteins rather than a single hormone. In fact, the circulation contains over 100 GH forms, and because we have yet to discover enough about the various forms, the net biological activity of this mixture is difficult to predict since the exogenous recombinant GH represents only 20% or so of the mix.

Thus far, most of the research has been largely confined to monomeric 22-kDa, the same GH that is available for exogenous use. However, while it is certainly effective for the original intended purpose, namely growth promotion, it is not known if this is sufficient for optimal growth. It is unlikely that it can fulfill all the functions of the GH family that are naturally present in the body. Moreover, the use of one GH variant likely decreases the production of the other variants in the body thus limiting the normal biological activity of GH.

On the contrary, the use of exogenous GH shuts down our own GH production and may produce some dysfunction in the endogenous production of GH once the therapy is stopped. This may simulate the situation of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism that sometimes occurs secondary to the use of anabolic steroids.

Since it takes a variable amount of time for our body to ramp up the GH machinery once GH therapy is discontinued, for a certain period of time, a GH deficiency (GHD) may exist. In some cases it may be possible that some dysfunction might exist as a result of which the production of GH is below that which was produced before the GH therapy.

 

[VTliftVT]

Do you feel that after exo GH usage that you could use your CJC and GHRP protocal to "ramp up" natty GH production again? Similar to a PCT for your endocrin system?

 

[T-man]

On the contrary, the use of exogenous GH shuts down our own GH production and may produce some dysfunction in the endogenous production of GH once the therapy is stopped. This may simulate the situation of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism that sometimes occurs secondary to the use of anabolic steroids.

I agree with most of what the good doctor says but cannot help noticing the big "may" in this paragraph. The reason that "may" exists of course is that not enough research has been done on the suppressive effects of exogenous GH.

I hope that your research facility on longevity becomes a reality someday Dat. The few doctors out there who concern themselves with life extension have barely scratched the surface. Hell they don't even know if resveratrol is helpful yet as out of the few ongoing studies only one or two are in stage 3 human trials.

 

[donjoy]

On the contrary, the use of exogenous GH shuts down our own GH production and may produce some dysfunction in the endogenous production of GH once the therapy is stopped. This may simulate the situation of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism that sometimes occurs secondary to the use of anabolic steroids.

In your research, do you feel that this is one of the major problems avoided by employing the use of CJC-1295 or Mod GRF (1-29) & GHRP-6?

Furthermore, if running both GHRH & GHRP while using exogenous GH do you avoid endogenous dysfunction that would be caused by exogenous GH?

 

[BigTex]

Pasquale's theory sure makes a great case for using GHRH and GHRP. I would be interested in finding out what the thinks about th used of GHRH and GHRP as an alternative. I use to have Pasquale's email address (gonna look for it). I would love to get his opinion.

 

[donjoy]

Pasquale's theory sure makes a great case for using GHRH and GHRP. I would be interested in finding out what the thinks about th used of GHRH and GHRP as an alternative. I use to have Pasquale's email address (gonna look for it). I would love to get his opinion.

Keep us posted on whether anything turns up!

 

[DatBtrue]

Do you feel that after exo GH usage that you could use your CJC and GHRP protocal to "ramp up" natty GH production again? Similar to a PCT for your endocrin system?

Yes.

I agree with most of what the good doctor says but cannot help noticing the big "may" in this paragraph. The reason that "may" exists of course is that not enough research has been done on the suppressive effects of exogenous GH.

I think the "good doctor" as you refer to him overstates the potentiality for exogenous GH being overally suppressive to endogenous shutdown. So I wholeheartedly agree with you T-Man.

What I have always thought was that using GH therapy over the course of years resulted in something lacking.

In your research, do you feel that this is one of the major problems avoided by employing the use of CJC-1295 or Mod GRF (1-29) & GHRP-6?

Furthermore, if running both GHRH & GHRP while using exogenous GH do you avoid endogenous dysfunction that would be caused by exogenous GH?

I know he spent about half of the posted section on potential endogenous dysfunction but I don't really see that as THE primary concern.

I posted the section simply to underscore that synthetic GH (22kda) is just different then endogenous GH (blend of isoforms).

I have said this many times before. But my voice gets very tiresome and so I thought I'd just post what someone involved in science and bodysculpting has to say about it all. ...someone besides a guy named "Dat"

Almost no one involved in bodybuilding seems to even know that there is a difference.

Pasquale's theory sure makes a great case for using GHRH and GHRP. I would be interested in finding out what the thinks about the used of GHRH and GHRP as an alternative. I use to have Pasquale's email address (gonna look for it). I would love to get his opinion.

He likes natural GH release.

I was surprised to read he likes the Mucuna pruriens (L-Dopa) to increase GHRH and Arginine to suppress somatostatin. Hmmmm where have I heard that before.

I use Mucuna pruriens w/ GHRH/GHRP-6 EOD specifically for that reason. I don't need somatostatin supression. GHRP-6 is most effective at that.

As for his thoughts on GHRHs and GHRPs ...I really hope not to hear them. I know they will not come from as studied a place as I came from on this topic.

This takes nothing from the man whose breadth of knowledge is outstanding. His scholarship has taught and informed me many times for sure.

 

[BigTex]

As for his thoughts on GHRHs and GHRPs ...I really hope not to hear them. I know they will not come from as studied a place as I came from on this topic.

This takes nothing from the man whose breadth of knowledge is outstanding. His scholarship has taught and informed me many times for sure.

You know, after I found his email address I thought the same thing. I would hate to see GHRHs and GHRPs be the subject of his next book.

 

[DatBtrue]

You know, after I found his email address I thought the same thing. I would hate to see GHRHs and GHRPs be the subject of his next book.

I just used a couple of his quotes to head off a few sections in my article on ATP and energy balance.

Great quotes but they needed a lot of meat to be put on them to put them in perspective and develop necessary detail, otherwise his statements just hang in the wind.

He's a great source though for macro-level understandings on a very wide range of topics.

 

[donjoy]

Almost no one involved in bodybuilding seems to even know that there is a difference.

Well then not enough people are reading posts from a guy named "Dat." Their loss.

 

[BigTex]

I just used a couple of his quotes to head off a few sections in my article on ATP and energy balance.

Great quotes but they needed a lot of meat to be put on them to put them in perspective and develop necessary detail, otherwise his statements just hang in the wind.

He's a great source though for macro-level understandings on a very wide range of topics.

I have two of his books and it seems like a lot of the information he gives is often tailored at providing a reason to buy a supplement that he is selling. I agree, he is a very knowledgeable man.

 

[DatBtrue]

I have two of his books and it seems like a lot of the information he gives is often tailored at providing a reason to buy a supplement that he is selling. I agree, he is a very knowledgeable man.

Someone said that the good doctor made a pronouncement that SEOs make the muscle look bigger but actually weaken it.

So I made a post and included the following which in my opinion sums the man up.

Dr. Mauro DiPasquale is outstanding. A line or two here and there in his books have given me ideas for deep research.

But his coverage is so broad sometimes that he fails to fully understand or provide detail about certain topics. At least in one instance I have found that he used the identical line word for word that I found in other source material.

The line:

"Studies have found that decreases in protein synthesis that occur in proportion to the number of contractions induced by electrical stimulation were in proportion to the decline in the level of ATP in muscle cells." footnote 112​

Great line! Since I am currently writing an article about ATP & protein synthesis do you think I followed up on the footnote?

Yes I did it when I first discovered that line in another text and I got fooled into doing it again for a second time when DiPasquale noted it.

The problem is that when you cut & paste without reading you can repeat a mistake if it was present in the source material. In this instance the citation leads to a study that was not about electrical stimulation of contractions and declining ATP levels.

It is difficult enough when you DO read everything. I make mistakes... and apparently I think a lot of myself so I am not being critical of DiPasquale. I'm just saying he, like everyone else, gets some things wrong... from time to time.

When he makes blanket statements about injecting oil he misses the details. When he made a negative comment about Emeric's product being just chicken protein he missed the details.

 

[BigTex]

It is difficult enough when you DO read everything. I make mistakes... and apparently I think a lot of myself so I am not being critical of DiPasquale. I'm just saying he, like everyone else, gets some things wrong... from time to time.

One thing I have to say about DiPaquale is he is usually way ahead of things with his research and ideas and unlike a lot of people who write and study things like this, they have no experience what so ever in the trenches. Mauro has been there and done that.

Have you ready any books by Luke Bucci like Nutrients for Ergogenic Aids in Sport and Exercise or Nutrition applied to injury rehabilitation and sports medicine? Bucci is very good in this area and has some very good ideas.

 

[DatBtrue]

Have you ready any books by Luke Bucci like Nutrients for Ergogenic Aids in Sport and Exercise or Nutrition applied to injury rehabilitation and sports medicine? Bucci is very good in this area and has some very good ideas.

Not that book in particular. I am using Amazon's search within a book to read snippets. It looks good although it is horribly dated....1993.. I have Sports Nutrition: Energy Metabolism and Exercise, Edited By Ira Wolinsky Judy A., Driskell, CRC Press 2008

I like their tables & illustrations. For instance in the table "Lipolytic Regulators and Their Proposed Mechanisms of Action" under "Lipolytic Stimulators", you can quickly find that testosterone is a stimulator but likely needs GH to be effective:

Testosterone - Increases catecholamine-stimulated lipolysis via increased Beta receptor expression and enhanced adenylate cyclase activity
- May require GH for action.​

That catches your eye, you research it and discover test w/ GH is a synergistic stimulator. Thats why my "fast days" are tough w/ extra test & the GH from peptides in my system. I already knew it would be but that is just an illustration of synergy in action.

You look at the section titled "Lipolytic Inhibitors" and find:

Insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) - Likely inhibits lipolysis in a manner similar to insulin (via phosphorylation of phosphodiesterase)​

If you go off and put some detail on those statements you have a solid understanding of how to use these compounds for fatloss or not.

You see as well that ephedrine is a double edged sword and also acts as a Lipolytic Inhibitors:

Catecholamines - Stimulates alpha 2-adrenergic receptors and interact with Gi proteins on plasma membrane, which inhibits adenylate cyclase.​

You note that testosterone will counter the inhibition of adenylate cyclase. So after you look at the studies you understand that you can use GH to mobilize fat; That testosterone can synergize w/ GH but is not that effective as a fat loss compound by itself; That ephedrine (which because you are already knowledgeable you know is catabolic) is not wholly effective w/o testosterone for fatloss. Testosterone & GH are anti-catabolic which counters ephedrine. So obviously if you use it you need GH & test. If you use GH the addition of test will be more effective.....


Hmmmmm... see BT just basic stuff that you know and I know. But isn't it amazing to you that people that call themselves trainers and charge money and that people who want to lose fat with compounds don't know how this stuff works TOGETHER?

Its their hobby, why not soak up every bit of knowledge you can? Unless the majority don't enjoy the hobby and just want quick body change to compensate for something missing in their life?

Hmmm. The Ego and the Id by Sigmund Freud

 

[Wise Guy]

Thanks for this Dat

 

[BigTex]

Not that book in particular. I am using Amazon's search within a book to read snippets. It looks good although it is horribly dated....1993.. I have Sports Nutrition: Energy Metabolism and Exercise, Edited By Ira Wolinsky Judy A., Driskell, CRC Press 2008

I am sure you have already discovered this but google books also has a good selection of books online that have most all the pages you can review. They might take out a page or two out of each chapter but no enough that you can't get a lot of good information. I believe I have th book you mentioned in my library. If that is the one it is very useful.

That catches your eye, you research it and discover test w/ GH is a synergistic stimulator. Thats why my "fast days" are tough w/ extra test & the GH from peptides in my system. I already knew it would be but that is just an illustration of synergy in action.

I had always heard that it is useless to do GH without taking test and eating a lot of protein. But as we know, one of the jobs of GH in the body is to prevent wasting in times of no food.

You note that testosterone will counter the inhibition of adenylate cyclase. So after you look at the studies you understand that you can use GH to mobilize fat; That testosterone can synergize w/ GH but is not that effective as a fat loss compound by itself; That ephedrine (which because you are already knowledgeable you know is catabolic) is not wholly effective w/o testosterone for fatloss. Testosterone & GH are anti-catabolic which counters ephedrine. So obviously if you use it you need GH & test. If you use GH the addition of test will be more effective.....

So what do you think about caffeine? I think it is probably just as catabolic and I have read that it even increases central fat stores (eg. abdomin and thighs). I wonder if used with test and GH if this might be prevented.

Hmmmmm... see BT just basic stuff that you know and I know. But isn't it amazing to you that people that call themselves trainers and charge money and that people who want to lose fat with compounds don't know how this stuff works TOGETHER?

Its their hobby, why not soak up every bit of knowledge you can? Unless the majority don't enjoy the hobby and just want quick body change to compensate for something missing in their life?

You know, personal trainers use to be good, I guess back when gym were good too. But now days you have gym owners that don't lift weights and have no interest in weights that hire personal trainers, pay them nothing and get what they pay for. Kids that learn enough to pass a certification exam written by people that have little real knowledge of weight training themselves.

I remember the time I tried to be a personal trainer and they had hired a new person. She came up to me and said she was a kinesiology major but had no idea how to make a workout program and was asking me what to do. My mouth was just hanging open. How do you get into a job and not have a clue what you are doing?

As with you, every aspect of weight training is my life, I ready and study everything I can get my hands on just to have the knowledge. This stuff is interesting. The information that I learned and passed on I have never charged a thing for. Imagine that?

 

[EVERLAST]

Thank you...

Gentlemen...
I consider it an honor and a priviledge to read this thread.
I would like to thank your for your generosity to the rest of us.
The wealth of knowledge that you so freely share...
it is just so impressive.

Thank you
E

 

[T-man]

Hmmmmm... see BT just basic stuff that you know and I know. But isn't it amazing to you that people that call themselves trainers and charge money and that people who want to lose fat with compounds don't know how this stuff works TOGETHER?

Ugh! Don't get me started. I just paid $400 for my GF to get some training and a potato would know more about diet and exercise than this PT did. I was livid when I heard about it, but could not get a refund. Next time I will do it myself or grill the potential PT thoroughly.

 

[DatBtrue]

I had always heard that it is useless to do GH without taking test and eating a lot of protein. But as we know, one of the jobs of GH in the body is to prevent wasting in times of no food.

Multiple functions. Stave off catabolism is one.

The coolest thing though is to mix GH w/ GHRH/GHRP-6 post workout.

Take test in such a way as too keep blood levels steady. So for cypionate or enanthate at least EOD dosing.

Then eat a lot of mixed red meats. Other proteins sources sure but get in a lot of beef.

Then make sure that in the gym your workout does not deplete energy stores. Make sure to get a net protein synthesis going during the workout and carry that into post workout. HUGELY important!!!!

People forget how energy intensive protein synthesis is... or more likely they just don't know. Counter that protein degradation and build muscle even while you workout and the PWO you will be ahead of the game. Over the course of time this stuff matters in increasing tissue accrual.

So what do you think about caffeine? I think it is probably just as catabolic and I have read that it even increases central fat stores (eg. abdomin and thighs). I wonder if used with test and GH if this might be prevented.

The difference between you and me Tex is you turn into a pussy when you lose some muscle mass. While I on the other-hand turn into a pussy without my coffee and cream. I don't miss food on fast day. I just hate black coffee w/ Stevia. :food-smi:

I ain't ever giving ip coffee and cream. Oh yes thats right.... I forgot... I take the test & GH so I can drink the java. :food-smil

You know, personal trainers use to be good, I guess back when gym were good too. But now days you have gym owners that don't lift weights and have no interest in weights that hire personal trainers, pay them nothing and get what they pay for. Kids that learn enough to pass a certification exam written by people that have little real knowledge of weight training themselves.

I remember the time I tried to be a personal trainer and they had hired a new person. She came up to me and said she was a kinesiology major but had no idea how to make a workout program and was asking me what to do. My mouth was just hanging open. How do you get into a job and not have a clue what you are doing?

As with you, every aspect of weight training is my life, I ready and study everything I can get my hands on just to have the knowledge. This stuff is interesting. The information that I learned and passed on I have never charged a thing for. Imagine that?

See we are old enough to look back on decades worth of gyms. I traveled a lot and so I have worked out in probably 300+ gyms. I miss the excitement of entering a gym and feeling a Franco Columbo, Tom Platz kinda a vibe. I mean clanging plates, deadlift weight hitting the floor, chalk, loud music and the sounds of people that were there to beat their previous personal best or die trying.

The gym owner was the guy who would come out and train people and he was always a big dude himself. Most gyms were in industrial parks and a lot of them had big commercial garage doors they would open for ventilation. There was always excitement in the air...

...oh I just remembered "Joe Weider you cocksucker I want my mutha fuckin money back!"

 

[pitbulladams]

Then make sure that in the gym your workout does not deplete energy stores. Make sure to get a net protein synthesis going during the workout and carry that into post workout. HUGELY important!!!!

People forget how energy intensive protein synthesis is... or more likely they just don't know. Counter that protein degradation and build muscle even while you workout and the PWO you will be ahead of the game. Over the course of time this stuff matters in increasing tissue accrual.

Could you explain more into this Dat.. not so much the workings behind it but how you go about preventing it ?

Diet, supplement or trainig related ?

Cheers
Sam