Pros like Ronnie Coleman and others seem to only do 1 real working set per exercise

[raizer]

I think it would be a huge mistake for a lot of guys. If there is one thing about Dorian's style I disagree with, it is that he only did 2 warm-up sets before his max working set of 5-8 reps, even when it was his first exercise for that bodypart.

For example, when using 475 lb on decline bench press (he has done as much as 500 X 5 on that exercise, at his strongest) and only doing 2 warm-ups, you have to make huge weight jumps in order to reach 500 lbs by your 3rd set.

Sorry, but when using that much weight for such low reps, 2 warm-up sets is insufficient. Assuming he started with 135 lbs, what would he weight progression look like? Maybe something like this?

135 X 20, 315 X 12, 500 X 5.

Even if he stated at 225 lbs, what is he going to do next? 400 lbs? Anyway you look at it, no matter what progression scheme you use, 2 warm-ups is not enough to safely work your way up to 500 lbs lbs on the bench press. I would venture to say that this may be one of the reasons why Dorian tore so many muscles. Dorian himself said that his injuries were not the result of a lapse in technique, but due to years of wear and tear on his connective tissue.

Is it any coincidence that connective tissue is damaged more easily in the absence of sufficient warm-ups? The muscles, joints, connective tissue, and nervous system all need to be "prepared" before the body can safely handle heavy weights to failure. Being properly warmed up entails a rise in muscle temperature, filling the muscles with blood (you don't need to have a super pump, but they should be at least mildly to moderately pumped), and stretching the muscles out through the range of motion you will be training in, as well as preparing the nervous system for the heavy weights to come.

The stronger and older you get, the more warm-ups your body requires in order to avoid injury. Even when I use 405 for bench press, my weight progression goes as follows:

Bar X 20-30
135 X 20
185 X 15
225 X 12
275 X 8-10
315 X 8-10
365 X 3-4
405 X failure


...and sometimes I even do a second set with 135 lbs. I am not even slightly tired by the time I reach my work-set, as none of my warm-ups are difficult, but my body and mind feel ready to handle max weight to failure.

I couldn't imagine using 100 lbs more and only doing 2 warm-ups. That is just an injury waiting to happen.

Ok and how about the second exercise? If you allready fully warmed up after decline press then i guess you dont need more than one or two warm ups if any right?

 

[x1xjcramair1x1]

what is your warm up routine for your elbows/forearms currently?

For forearms I follow these **broken link removed**

For elbows very light rope pull downs. I will take any suggestions you might have, but as one suggested earlier perhaps my Aromasin is a bit harsh on them considering I am also on Mast.

 

[finxster]

And then after your 1 hour warmup, it's time to go home...

Just kidding, but it seems extreme to me, and not everyone needs that. I do well working up to 405 with 135, 225, and 315 as warmups.

And also, Dorian has said his injuries happened because he didn't back his intensity and weight off during the final months of his contest prep. All of his injuries were within 8 weeks of a contest and he still was training balls to the wall past failure, even with tendinitis and other issues.

I think it would be a huge mistake for a lot of guys. If there is one thing about Dorian's style I disagree with, it is that he only did 2 warm-up sets before his max working set of 5-8 reps, even when it was his first exercise for that bodypart.

For example, when using 475 lb on decline bench press (he has done as much as 500 X 5 on that exercise, at his strongest) and only doing 2 warm-ups, you have to make huge weight jumps in order to reach 500 lbs by your 3rd set.

Sorry, but when using that much weight for such low reps, 2 warm-up sets is insufficient. Assuming he started with 135 lbs, what would he weight progression look like? Maybe something like this?

135 X 20, 315 X 12, 500 X 5.

Even if he stated at 225 lbs, what is he going to do next? 400 lbs? Anyway you look at it, no matter what progression scheme you use, 2 warm-ups is not enough to safely work your way up to 500 lbs lbs on the bench press. I would venture to say that this may be one of the reasons why Dorian tore so many muscles. Dorian himself said that his injuries were not the result of a lapse in technique, but due to years of wear and tear on his connective tissue.

Is it any coincidence that connective tissue is damaged more easily in the absence of sufficient warm-ups? The muscles, joints, connective tissue, and nervous system all need to be "prepared" before the body can safely handle heavy weights to failure. Being properly warmed up entails a rise in muscle temperature, filling the muscles with blood (you don't need to have a super pump, but they should be at least mildly to moderately pumped), and stretching the muscles out through the range of motion you will be training in, as well as preparing the nervous system for the heavy weights to come.

The stronger and older you get, the more warm-ups your body requires in order to avoid injury. Even when I use 405 for bench press, my weight progression goes as follows:

Bar X 20-30
135 X 20
185 X 15
225 X 12
275 X 8-10
315 X 8-10
365 X 3-4
405 X failure


...and sometimes I even do a second set with 135 lbs. I am not even slightly tired by the time I reach my work-set, as none of my warm-ups are difficult, but my body and mind feel ready to handle max weight to failure.

I couldn't imagine using 100 lbs more and only doing 2 warm-ups. That is just an injury waiting to happen.

 

[Idra]

What doesn't make any sense to me is he calls it 4 sets but it's obvious that the only real set that meant anything was the 315 pounds for 12 reps. The fact that he did 315 for 12 means that the 275 for 12 was just a warm up.

What exactly brought you to this conclusion?

 

[Kaladryn]

Multiple sets isn't about just warming up or going to failure. There is a pre-exhaust like effect going on during the buildup to the heavy set that makes that final set more productive.

 

[sammy555]

Multiple sets isn't about just warming up or going to failure. There is a pre-exhaust like effect going on during the buildup to the heavy set that makes that final set more productive.

This and also I find a couple of heavy warm up sets 2 or 3 reps short off failure I really get a feel for the exercise and fire up the cns and lift more on my working set then if I didn't do the heavy warm ups. I class this as 1 working set but some would argue its 3 working sets I guess. It's a hard thing to define exactly and results are all that matter any way

 

[Mike Arnold]

Ok and how about the second exercise? If you allready fully warmed up after decline press then i guess you dont need more than one or two warm ups if any right?

Obviously, by the time you get to your 2nd exercise, you are already plenty warmed up.

However, there are 2 reason why at least 1-2 lighter sets should be performed when moving into each new exercise. First of all, your muscles need to become accustomed to the new range of motion. For example, a flat and incline bench press are two very different exercises, so even though your body is prepared to do flat presses, it does not mean it is ready to go all-out with a new range of motion. So, you should make sure that you can comfortably work through the new range of motion before using max weight to failure. There should not be any tightness.

Or, what if you are transitioning from flat presses to flyes? What about your biceps? At that point the biceps have not been warmed up at all, placing them in a precarious position, especially if you tend to keep your arms straighter and are able to handle impressive weights in that exercise.

The second reason you should spend some time working through a new range of motion before using max weights is to prepare your nervous system. Doing so enhances coordination and motor ability, improving performance. This is the reason, injuries aside, why we are stronger after performing a proper warm-up compared to jumping right into a max lift effort (not too smart for more than one reason).

 

[Mike Arnold]

And then after your 1 hour warmup, it's time to go home...

Just kidding, but it seems extreme to me, and not everyone needs that. I do well working up to 405 with 135, 225, and 315 as warmups.

...and like I said, the "older" you get, the more warm-ups you need. I used to do exactly what you posted there--135, 225, 315 lbs, then move to 405 lbs. I can't do that anymore...and lots of other guys end up in the same place once they hit their 40's or close to it.

So, what is extreme for you might be perfect for someone else. Regardless, I have found that more bodybuilders than not do not warm-up optimally...and they realize this when they get older and start feeling all kinds of aches and pains in their joints and connective tissue.

Just because you "can" do something doesn't necessarily mean you should. The body is going to experience wear & tear no matter how well you warm-up or how perfect your technique, but you can minimize this accumulative damage through optimal warm-ups.


And also, Dorian has said his injuries happened because he didn't back his intensity and weight off during the final months of his contest prep. All of his injuries were within 8 weeks of a contest and he still was training balls to the wall past failure, even with tendinitis and other issues.
I know exactly what Dorian said and when he sustained his injuries, but it doesn't diminish my belief that Dorian's insufficient warm-ups contributed to his injuries. Dorian intentionally kept his warm-ups brief because he believed that they ate into his recovery ability to the point it would adversely affect his ability to recover and grow.

He was wrong, as proper warm-ups take a minimal toll on recovery ability, but are essential for avoiding injury. Lots of bodybuilders have trained heavy like Dorian, but few sustained the number of serious injuries he did. If you think it was just normal wear & tear that led to all his injuries, or his failure to "back-off" pre-contest, I think you are mistaken.

I have no doubt that his style of training, including his insufficient warm-ups, contributed to his numerous, career-ending injuries. Plenty of other bodybuilders have copied his style and had to stop due to injury, and/or unacceptable stress and strain on the body. I can name several pros who once used to train like him--even trained by him--but who no longer do and will tell you the exact same thing I am.

.....

 

[finxster]

I completely understand what you are saying, but 100+ reps of warmups would undoubtedly make my "working set" not as heavy. My accessory muscles, for one, would be beat up already at that point. It seems like a lot of cardio before the lift...

You don't feel that training with extreme poundages, beyond failure, in a caloric deficit, with drugs that are known to weaken the connective tissue, would be enough to cause these injuries? I'm not saying you are wrong, but that environment is about optimal for the damage to occur.

.....

 

[Fa Seeshus]

I don't think muscular failure should be the only measure of if a set was productive.

If you watch the actual ' warmup ' sets you will see that the pros are often squeezing more or pausing (increasing time under tension) or accelerating the concentric more, which can lead to more cns adaptation and actual tension on the muscle than a heavier set.

 

[Elvia1023]

I don't think muscular failure should be the only measure of if a set was productive.

If you watch the actual ' warmup ' sets you will see that the pros are often squeezing more or pausing (increasing time under tension) or accelerating the concentric more, which can lead to more cns adaptation and actual tension on the muscle than a heavier set.

Exactly.

Did you used to post as Kaju on other boards?

 

[someday]

Sorry to sidetrack...but for a sec I thought Steve Kuclo had joined our board. lol

 

[Mike Arnold]

I completely understand what you are saying, but 100+ reps of warmups would undoubtedly make my "working set" not as heavy.
No, it wouldn't--not if using weights and reps that don't make you tired. For example, 30 reps with an empty bar is hardly going to diminish one's strength for their working set when using 400 lbs. Hell, even if you only use 135 lbs for your work-set, it won't harm strength. So, it doesn't really matter how many "reps" you do when the weight is not heavy enough to tax strength. The weight and rep progression I listed would not impact strength for someone whose working weight is 400 X 10.

Maybe if you blew through all those sets quickly it would, but not with a normal amount of rest between sets. Besides, there is more than one way to warm-up. Those focusing on strength rarely ever use a weight and rep progression that interferes with their strength on their working sets.

Bodybuilders might be less concerned, depending on their style of training, but the point is that too many bodybuilder's don't warm-up adequately. Like I said before, both age and strength are important factors in determining the extent of someone's warm-ups, but I would go so far as to say that younger bodybuilders should probably warm-up more thoroughly than they think they need to, so that the accumulative damage associated with heavy training is minimized. This will cut down on the aches and pains, as well as injuries, that many bodybuilders experience as they get older. How many times have you heard pros in 40's, or even their 30's, say that if there was one thing they could go back and change about their training, it would be to take their warm-us more seriously? There is a reason for that.

My accessory muscles, for one, would be beat up already at that point. It seems like a lot of cardio before the lift...
I already addressed this above.

You don't feel that training with extreme poundages, beyond failure, in a caloric deficit, with drugs that are known to weaken the connective tissue, would be enough to cause these injuries?
Did I say that the chance of injury is not increased when training under those conditions? No, I simply said I do not think it was the ONLY reason for his many, serous injuries, and that his brief, insufficient warm-ups were a contributing factor. Most people, if not nearly all, who are able to bench press 500 lbs for 5 reps would also agree with me that 2 freakin' warm-ups is hardly adequate when using that much weight to beyond failure.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but that environment is about optimal for the damage to occur.
See above.

...

 

[Fit2Serve]

I remember jay cutler saying he doesn't train to failure.

I do think multiple warm up sets are necessary if u are going to go HEAVY. the body the joints the mind and then the muscle all have to be ready for heavy poundages. I completely blame an injury I had bc I failed to warm up enough
F2S

 

[Damios]

But...

What is in Your opinion "failure"? Do You reach failure when You can't do next rep with perfect form and need to use i.e forced rep or when You can't do next rep in any form?

 

[Mike Arnold]

But...

What is in Your opinion "failure"? Do You reach failure when You can't do next rep with perfect form and need to use i.e forced rep or when You can't do next rep in any form?

There are different forms of failure. Most people think of failure as not being able to do another positive rep in good form, which is referred to as positive failure.

True, total muscular failure is pretty much never achieved because even after the most brutal set, no matter how extended it might be, the individual would still have enough strength to lift at least 1 pound, which means that true muscular failure has not yet been reached. Any ability to contract the muscle, to any degree, means total failure has not taken place.

Now, there have been cases where someone has trained so hard that the muscle just kind of locks up and shuts down, refusing to contract, but this is more of a nervous system protective mechanism than true total failure.

So, there is normal failure, which is when you can't do another positive rep in good form using your starting weight, and then there are many degrees of failure after that.

 

[Damios]

So... in example from 1st post here:

For example. In the his barbell shoulder press goes like this.
(set 1) 135 pounds x 15 reps
(set 2) 225 pounds x 15 reps
(set 3) 275 pounds x 12 reps
(set 4) 315 pounds x 12 reps

Ronnie is going to "normal failure" only in set 4?

 

[BigTex]

Ronnie coleman is known for doing a lot of volume in his workouts but when I....... it looks that he really only does 1 heavy work set then moves on to the next lift.

He doesn't even really train to failure but instead has a set number of reps he shots for and if he gets his rep goal he stops even though it's obvious he could have done more reps.

For example. In the his barbell shoulder press goes like this.
(set 1) 135 pounds x 15 reps
(set 2) 225 pounds x 15 reps
(set 3) 275 pounds x 12 reps
(set 4) 315 pounds x 12 reps

Another example is his barbell row lift. His poundages look like this.
(set 1) 225 pounds x 15
(set 2) 315 pounds x 10
(set 3) 405 pounds x 10
(set 4) 495 pounds x 8

......here is his stats on the incline benchpress.

225 pounds x 15 reps
315 pounds x 12 reps
405 pounds x 10 reps

Kingsnake.....in the case of a bodybuilder muscle is best built doing reps of 6-12 at an intensity of 60-85% of 1RM. So the sets you see that are not at 80+ 1-RM do fall within this range. Usually when he does reps of 15-20 it is strictly a warm up, the rest are actually his work sets. 3-5 work sets are pretty good depending on how your body reacts. Apparently Ronnie found he grew best with around 3 work sets. As for failure, you absolutely don't have to reach failure to grow optially. What Coleman does do with volume is several different exercises for one body part. As I recall, he generally does 3-4 different exercises for each body part with 2-3 body parts per day.

I have spoken a few times to Coleman about his training and quite a few times to Brian Dobson about how Ronnie trained when he was his trainer. While many claim his form is poor etc., there is quite a lot of science backing what he does and why he gets the results he gets. For instance, Ronnie always did a more powerlifting routine the 1st three days going a heavy for instance on squat, flat bench and deadlift:

Squats - 1 x 16; 1 x 12; 1 x 8; 1 x 6; 1 x 4
Bench press - 1 x 20; 1 x 16; 1 x 12; 1 x 10; 1 x 5
Deadlifts - 1 x 12; 1 x 10; 1 x 8;1 x 6

He used knee wraps and a Inzer squat suit when he did squats and deadlift to be able to add as much weight as possible. The 2nd part of his weekly workout was more of a traditional BB workout with higher reps. As you also notice he short strokes a lot of his lifts in order to keep the tension on the muscle which you lose when you lock out a lift. There is quite a lot of research backing partial lifts stimulating growth especially when you consider you can add even more weight doing this.

When I discussed the science with Brian Dobson we discussed the theory of myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Some researchers doubt this is possible yet there is current research suggesting it may be very real, not to mention a few studies done by the Soviet Union from years back.

As we all know we get a huge pump when we do higher reps (not low reps). This causes supersaturation of the muscle cell loading it with aminos, water and glucose. It is thought that this action stipulates hypertrophy. Lower reps do not cause this but both ranges are thought to increase the size of the myofibrils. Which is one of the reasons BB's use insulin and IGF-1.

There is a lot of debate in the scientific community over this theory but obviously there is a huge difference in what a powerlifters looks like and a bodybuilder whihc many can't explain logically. Combine the two training methods and you will have a much denser much larger athlete. Thus the reason Coleman trained the way he did.

In fact, a few years back when I talked to Coleman he gave me this:

Back/Biceps/Shoulders

Barbell rows - 5 x 10-12
Pulley rows - 4 x 10-12
Machine pulldowns - 3 x 10-12
Front pulldowns - 3 x 10-12

Incline alternate dumbbell curls - 4 x 12
Machine curls - 3 x 12
superset with Barbell curls - 3 x 12
Standing cable curls - 4 x 12

Seated dumbbell presses - 4 x 12
Front dumbbell raises - 3 x 8-25
Machine presses - 3 x 8-25

As you see he is doing 3-4 exercises per body part, 3-4 work sets of 10-12 reps and 2-3 body parts per day. I did his workout which is 6 days a week and it is a LOT of volume. He also works each body part twice a week with one day off.

Ronnie trained with Johnny Jackson who is a powerlifter and Brian Dobson is a powerlifter. If you notice their videos, all of them have the same training style including Branch Warren. Brian Dobson has worked with all of them.

 

[MR. BMJ]

I've always liked Lyle's McDonald's approach to warming up...that said, IMO, nothing is set in stone on this.

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