Pros vrs Pros

[7_Deadly_Sins]

June 3rd theres no pt in starting right now because ive got 2 weddings and a vaction coming up in the next 5 weeks. I dont wanna be tryin to do a trial period when i know im not gonna be able to give it my all.

But soon!

P.s. deadly,
you probably dont remember but you had a post a while ago about putting EVOO in milk and doin it like a shot.....fantastic advice!

Yep, water just doesn't work...OJ works decently too..Milk is the best I found.

 

[shawnkarbabacz]

Yep, water just doesn't work...OJ works decently too..Milk is the best I found.

yea usually i have it in my salads or on my eggs, but that way is super easy to make sure you get it in. it ruins my shakes so i stopped going that route....

 

[BigCracker]

I've found a lot of guys hire trainers so they have someone to blame when they get their asses handed to them on stage.

 

[VitoBrata]

I've found a lot of guys hire trainers so they have someone to blame when they get their asses handed to them on stage.

The wise trainer would quit that client.

 

[tkav1980]

to answer your question about how a pro would respond to someone elses routine if the ideas are different. well some will do what we seem to like to do and say fuck that my routine is the best and they have no idea what theyre talking about. and others would think about it and decide if someone else has a better idea on how to attack a specific goal. i dont see the thought process of a pro when it comes to a new idea that they havent thought of being different from that of you or me. i will tel you this. after a good 8 months, i think, with phil. he hasnt told me any magic secrete yet. other than one about a penis pump. and ive had better results in that short time then my cumulative years training.

 

[Ness]

i will tel you this. after a good 8 months, i think, with phil. he hasnt told me any magic secrete yet. other than one about a penis pump. and ive had better results in that short time then my cumulative years training.

Yes, that is true that you should have great gains from Phil's regiment. His methods have been honed in from decades of trial and error.

Now, about the "magic secrete" stuff. Yes, there are many magic secrets that will blow you up. However, these are not things that you have not heard of before as individual components. These methods are used when the timing of your body's climate is ready. There is always a right and wrong way to do things, and these "magic secretes" that the pros have are perfect recipes for when the storm is perfect. Phil knows when to pull out the bag-o-tricks.

 

[tkav1980]

Yes, that is true that you should have great gains from Phil's regiment. His methods have been honed in from decades of trial and error.

Now, about the "magic secrete" stuff. Yes, there are many magic secrets that will blow you up. However, these are not things that you have not heard of before as individual components. These methods are used when the timing of your body's climate is ready. There is always a right and wrong way to do things, and these "magic secretes" that the pros have are perfect recipes for when the storm is perfect. Phil knows when to pull out the bag-o-tricks.

I am 100% sure that phil does. however at my current level its not needed or he would be using it. my point is that it is like anything else. your taught to master the basics first. from my point of view Phil is the pro, so i just try to shut up and do what he says. i wouldnt go to quarterback camp and argue with joe montana. which for some reason that is beyond my comprehension people love to do with Phil and some of his colleagues. believe me i could pepper the guy with questions all day long, but im sure its stuff that will be answered anyway as i progress. the origional posters question i think is more of a how do they act kind of thing. and that will vary in the same way as the membership here does. some will think about it and see if it makes sence and others wil become defensive or aggressive about theyre own particular belief system. it would be better just to ask a pro how has your training and nutrition philosophy been influenced by other pro's, and how did you react to something you did not believe was the "right" way to go about it. just my opinion on the origional posters question.

 

[shawnkarbabacz]

I am 100% sure that phil does. however at my current level its not needed or he would be using it. my point is that it is like anything else. your taught to master the basics first. from my point of view Phil is the pro, so i just try to shut up and do what he says. i wouldnt go to quarterback camp and argue with joe montana. which for some reason that is beyond my comprehension people love to do with Phil and some of his colleagues. believe me i could pepper the guy with questions all day long, but im sure its stuff that will be answered anyway as i progress. the origional posters question i think is more of a how do they act kind of thing. and that will vary in the same way as the membership here does. some will think about it and see if it makes sence and others wil become defensive or aggressive about theyre own particular belief system. it would be better just to ask a pro how has your training and nutrition philosophy been influenced by other pro's, and how did you react to something you did not believe was the "right" way to go about it. just my opinion on the origional posters question.

that was my original question basically. i just keep using palumbo because i know his methods really go against the grain with alot of other guys, with the high fat ect. Obviously i dont think a fistfight is gonna break out, but i was wondering if other guys sit there and think 'what the hell would he do that for?'

 

[tkav1980]

if your unsure its the right program for you. my suggestion would be you have 2 choices. 1 is spend the years it took these trainers reasearching diet and training methods by trial and error. or hire someone who already did that. if you choose to hire someone you need to trust the person you hire, and totally lend yourself to that persons methods. remember that you paid them, let the trainer do the job they were paid for. its going to take time, and dedication. if you would like to know anything in regards to how Phil conducts business i have to say he is the boards most reliable sponsor. answers to your questions before you can even refresh your email browser window. a consice proven plan. and most of all you will enjoy the training and nutritional guidelines he will set up for you. he really takes your results personal and will work with you on achieving your goals relentlessly until you do. he is also brutally honest, and you should NEVER HIRE ANYONE THAT IS NOT. you wont get anything out of anyone telling you you are doing just fine if you arent. Phil is a total professional.

 

[shawnkarbabacz]

if your unsure its the right program for you. my suggestion would be you have 2 choices. 1 is spend the years it took these trainers reasearching diet and training methods by trial and error. or hire someone who already did that. if you choose to hire someone you need to trust the person you hire, and totally lend yourself to that persons methods. remember that you paid them, let the trainer do the job they were paid for. its going to take time, and dedication. if you would like to know anything in regards to how Phil conducts business i have to say he is the boards most reliable sponsor. answers to your questions before you can even refresh your email browser window. a consice proven plan. and most of all you will enjoy the training and nutritional guidelines he will set up for you. he really takes your results personal and will work with you on achieving your goals relentlessly until you do. he is also brutally honest, and you should NEVER HIRE ANYONE THAT IS NOT. you wont get anything out of anyone telling you you are doing just fine if you arent. Phil is a total professional.

yea i agree. everyone who works with him praises him up and down, so its not like im wondering if HIS way works. thats not my question. seeing all of you hernon trainees b4 and after pics put the proof in the pudding as it were. This whole thing started when i was just thinking about how 2 pro trainers can get insane results out of 2 different people with 2 totally different training/diet plans. Just wondered if the other one would think, 'wow i bet he woulda looked EVEN BETTER with my plan' and vice versa.

 

[tkav1980]

yea i agree. everyone who works with him praises him up and down, so its not like im wondering if HIS way works. thats not my question. seeing all of you hernon trainees b4 and after pics put the proof in the pudding as it were. This whole thing started when i was just thinking about how 2 pro trainers can get insane results out of 2 different people with 2 totally different training/diet plans. Just wondered if the other one would think, 'wow i bet he woulda looked EVEN BETTER with my plan' and vice versa.

the 2 people getting 2 different results are because the people training them know, or dont know what theyre doing. they assess the individual needs of the person being trained and make proper adjustments to it. i might be misquoting him alittle but i remember reading dante saying about DC nutrition that one blanket nutritional program doesnt work. he mentioned having to have someone eat junkfood after a workout to put on weight, now if a guy was already fat he would never do that. dorian, phil, dante...all of them at some point im sure saw something someone else was doing and said to themselvs "oh i get it! thats a good idea." and added it to theyre arsenal of knowledge. as im sure it went the other way where it was "ok WHAT!?!?! thats rediculous!" i see DOGGCRAP readign at the bottom of the page now. and if he would be so kind id like to ask a question the wil help answer your question shawn.

dante, if its not too much to ask was there any time you looked at another trainer and saw what they were doing and said "ok that makes sence" and added it to your own? and vice versa? your always hammered with questions so im sorry for bothering you but just a yes/no would be awesome.

 

[shawnkarbabacz]

the 2 people getting 2 different results are because the people training them know, or dont know what theyre doing. they assess the individual needs of the person being trained and make proper adjustments to it. i might be misquoting him alittle but i remember reading dante saying about DC nutrition that one blanket nutritional program doesnt work. he mentioned having to have someone eat junkfood after a workout to put on weight, now if a guy was already fat he would never do that. dorian, phil, dante...all of them at some point im sure saw something someone else was doing and said to themselvs "oh i get it! thats a good idea." and added it to theyre arsenal of knowledge. as im sure it went the other way where it was "ok WHAT!?!?! thats rediculous!" i see DOGGCRAP readign at the bottom of the page now. and if he would be so kind id like to ask a question the wil help answer your question shawn.

dante, if its not too much to ask was there any time you looked at another trainer and saw what they were doing and said "ok that makes sence" and added it to your own? and vice versa? your always hammered with questions so im sorry for bothering you but just a yes/no would be awesome.

yea id like to hear that answer to. his responses are always great cause they are so intense. hahaha i can imagine him saying outloud what hes typing as hes typing it!

 

[Beregond]

Good thread. I think Phil's point is, the fundamental principles are always going to be the same, but how they are applied to the individual will vary.

And yes, no one wants to believe that genetics are always going to be a big factor, so they want someone, or something, to blame.

Here's a story about Phil that makes the point; and I don't think I ever even told it to him:

Back when Phil was training at World's in Vancouver, WA, this guy asked me: "When does Phil train himself?" "He just did," I replied. "Well, yes, he did a few sets, but I mean his real training." "That IS his real training," I said. "No, really; I mean, when does he do his whole routine?" "Well, you just saw his whole routine for legs," I said. "No I didn't..."

This went on and on. The guy simply refused to believe that a few very intense sets per bodypart several times a week could possibly be how Phil built that body. He actually got irate, and called me a liar! By this time, a number of guys were listening and snickering, waiting for me to blow my stack. Finally, I said: "Ask Phil next time you see him," and left.

I bet he did ask Phil too, and I'm sure he didn't believe him. He was probably coming in at all hours to try to "catch" Phil doing his real routine.

I don't know why people want it to be harder and more complicated than it is. Well, yes I do: because they want to believe that if they just put in enough labor, they can have any kind of body they want. No, we can't. Our potential was decided the moment dad's sperm hit mom's egg, and that is that. And how to fulfill that potential isn't infinitely complex either. It is just a matter of learning the principles, and figuring-in those individual factors that Phil listed above.

I've worked as a trainer now myself for many years, and the two things that hold most people back are A, lack of consistency, and B, lack of dietary discipline. And I have been as guilty as anyone, so I understand. It's damn hard! It goes against every instinct we have.

What I should have said to that guy was: "You want Phil's secret? Go watch what he eats all day. Then picture yourself doing exactly that, 365 days a year for the next ten years." The inability to eat strictly, and to be consitsent and logical in their training, is what defeats people.

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Hhahahhahahah

Good thread. I think Phil's point is, the fundamental principles are always going to be the same, but how they are applied to the individual will vary.

And yes, no one wants to believe that genetics are always going to be a big factor, so they want someone, or something, to blame.

Here's a story about Phil that makes the point; and I don't think I ever even told it to him:

Back when Phil was training at World's in Vancouver, WA, this guy asked me: "When does Phil train himself?" "He just did," I replied. "Well, yes, he did a few sets, but I mean his real training." "That IS his real training," I said. "No, really; I mean, when does he do his whole routine?" "Well, you just saw his whole routine for legs," I said. "No I didn't..."

This went on and on. The guy simply refused to believe that a few very intense sets per bodypart several times a week could possibly be how Phil built that body. He actually got irate, and called me a liar! By this time, a number of guys were listening and snickering, waiting for me to blow my stack. Finally, I said: "Ask Phil next time you see him," and left.

I bet he did ask Phil too, and I'm sure he didn't believe him. He was probably coming in at all hours to try to "catch" Phil doing his real routine.

I don't know why people want it to be harder and more complicated than it is. Well, yes I do: because they want to believe that if they just put in enough labor, they can have any kind of body they want. No, we can't. Our potential was decided the moment dad's sperm hit mom's egg, and that is that. And how to fulfill that potential isn't infinitely complex either. It is just a matter of learning the principles, and figuring-in those individual factors that Phil listed above.

I've worked as a trainer now myself for many years, and the two things that hold most people back are A, lack of consistency, and B, lack of dietary discipline. And I have been as guilty as anyone, so I understand. It's damn hard! It goes against every instinct we have.

What I should have said to that guy was: "You want Phil's secret? Go watch what he eats all day. Then picture yourself doing exactly that, 365 days a year for the next ten years." The inability to eat strictly, and to be consitsent and logical in their training, is what defeats people.

One guess.....it was Van wasnt it!!

 

[shawnkarbabacz]

Good thread. I think Phil's point is, the fundamental principles are always going to be the same, but how they are applied to the individual will vary.

And yes, no one wants to believe that genetics are always going to be a big factor, so they want someone, or something, to blame.

Here's a story about Phil that makes the point; and I don't think I ever even told it to him:

Back when Phil was training at World's in Vancouver, WA, this guy asked me: "When does Phil train himself?" "He just did," I replied. "Well, yes, he did a few sets, but I mean his real training." "That IS his real training," I said. "No, really; I mean, when does he do his whole routine?" "Well, you just saw his whole routine for legs," I said. "No I didn't..."

This went on and on. The guy simply refused to believe that a few very intense sets per bodypart several times a week could possibly be how Phil built that body. He actually got irate, and called me a liar! By this time, a number of guys were listening and snickering, waiting for me to blow my stack. Finally, I said: "Ask Phil next time you see him," and left.

I bet he did ask Phil too, and I'm sure he didn't believe him. He was probably coming in at all hours to try to "catch" Phil doing his real routine.

I don't know why people want it to be harder and more complicated than it is. Well, yes I do: because they want to believe that if they just put in enough labor, they can have any kind of body they want. No, we can't. Our potential was decided the moment dad's sperm hit mom's egg, and that is that. And how to fulfill that potential isn't infinitely complex either. It is just a matter of learning the principles, and figuring-in those individual factors that Phil listed above.

I've worked as a trainer now myself for many years, and the two things that hold most people back are A, lack of consistency, and B, lack of dietary discipline. And I have been as guilty as anyone, so I understand. It's damn hard! It goes against every instinct we have.

What I should have said to that guy was: "You want Phil's secret? Go watch what he eats all day. Then picture yourself doing exactly that, 365 days a year for the next ten years." The inability to eat strictly, and to be consitsent and logical in their training, is what defeats people.

that was a great post

 

[Blade_HST]

Well, I guess it is safe to assume that the truth is closer to what both Phil and DC are doing, with a (relatively speaking) low volume approach. An excellent review by Wernbom a couple of years ago, added to a few newer studies have found that the most productive range for hypertrophy is about 30-50 TOTAL reps for a muscle group twice per week, within a range of 5-15RM loads. Heavy enough to get strength gains and to challenge the muscle, but not so heavy that you can't get in sufficient volume/reps.

Progressive load over time is obviously a requirement within this recommendation, so that should be the primary focus. With a RP approach or dropsets, you are working closer to 100% muscle/fiber activation so we can assume the optimal range will be about 20-40 total reps for a muscle group. Pretty damn close to both Phil's and Dante's routines, no?

Compare it to the millions of gymrats doing their BB-hero's 30 set per muscle group routines and getting nowhere. Yeah, the pump sure does feel great, but why are you still doing 225lbs squats?

I do see one major difference in their dieting approaches, though. Phil does more of a slow-and-steady thing since you will only eat when hungry. No rice, oatmeal and "traditional" BB carbs, but plenty of lean meats and healthy fats.

DC is basically force-feeding guys up in bodyweight, lots of olive oil for extra calories, high protein (Phil's diet is more moderate protein - or balanced between carbs/fats), and some junkfood if you can't get in all the calories.

Lastly, Phil is not a huge cardio-guy while DC requires 20min morning cardio + green tea to slow down (and seemingly lose) bodyfat in the process.

DC will put on 50lbs on a guy in a year, but it is a brutal year of blasting/cruising, extreme stretching and force-feeding. Strength gains are the focus.

Phil I don't have any bodyweight numbers or strength gain numbers on, but it's pretty obvious that his trainees are gaining solid muscle slowly and steadily while leaning out and staying lean.

Consistency is the common denominator, getting stronger with heavy, intense training with a low-moderate volume to gain without getting overtrained, burnt out or injured.