Push/pull vs Upper/Lower

[xpoc]

This shit is all cyclical.
4 years ago EVERYYYONE ran a push/pull/legs program. Right now, upper/lower is it.
Honestly, i gotta give JP probably the MOST credit for the popularity of non-bro split training within the BBing community.
10-15 years ago, no one was doing this shit. Frequency was not a thing yet. It was "beat the fuck out of chest" then "rest it for 7 days."
That's it.

Personally, the larger the grouping of muscles, the longer my workout is going to be. It probably comes down to specialization and how advanced someones training age is. Someone just trying to get huge, i can program bent over rows, pulldowns, maybe some SA DB rows and they'd be ok. But for someone more advanced it might take more than that and then become a 2+ hr workout. Jordan's original message was grow as big as you can on upper/lower, then PPL until you have some obvious weakparts (this should be when someone is already massive and fine tuning their physique) THENNN switch to the bro split to bring said bodyparts up.

YES, JP is the guy who made me pump the breaks on P/P/L and switch to U/L. Then I took it to another level by doing TB, TB, U, L (4 workouts per week) so I could hit every body part 3x per week. The logic (now backed by the science) of higher frequency simply made sense to me. JP is the guy who really influenced me the most but I do have to give some credit to Phil Hernon who was preaching this decades ago.

 

[Mufasa123]

I feel like they would bury the study. One issue I have with the science obsessed is they put science over common sense. Their sacred split, full body 3x a week, could be great if someone can garuntee they are doing the perfect amount of volume all 3 days to maximize weekly stimulus while not getting too much fatigue. This is the absolute goal of evidence based lifting, optimization. Stimulate as much growth as humanly possible while also recovering. But....this is hard to do as post people will probably either do too little each day out of fear they are doing too much to recover...or doing so much they do not recover.

Hence why the dumb idiot bro split is so great. You can garuntee both stimulus and recovery. Destroy that part, rest it 6 days, repeat forever. No thought needed just train hard be consistent garuntee growth. You can't go broke making a profit.

You are pretty much dead on. The issue with full body is that it works great for a beginner, needs more volume at some point in progression, and then needs to be schemed pretty carefully as you get strong (ie you are not squatting 4x6 @80% sets across 3x a week and adding weight weekly or at least not for long). Like all things it gets individual too.

While from a pure muscle accrual standpoint it makes sense to focus heavily on pushing up the big stimulative lifts while eating big in the kitchen, you run into the issue above. The 2nd issue is that even if managed perfectly, it leaves precious little room for accessory work if there's any volume on the bigger lifts. Those 3 days will push your CNS limit. You can't add much more or needs to be a single issue/careful selection. Probably fine for an all around athlete base but not someone in most strength sports or a BBer - perceived need for overflowing variety in that population is HUGE. So more sessions and lower frequency for each lift. Now you get upper/lower run twice a week or 4 days but big lifts are 2x a week and even then you end up scheming volume with them as you progress.

Want to break it up more Chest, Back, Legs. This is in my mind the classic BBing split and it's stood the test of time - likely for reasons you cite and I added to, good balance and tolerable. You can get in some good volume on big lifts and put in a solid amount of accessory and isolation work plus CNS hit shouldn't be too bad unless you are really pushing things or loading the volume up on big compounds. Even then just add a rest day or so during a week and lower frequency some.

More than that is excessive for most but, for everything there is a season. Probably useful pre-contest or in other scenarios or for people who just like to be in the gym frequently. Who am I to say. If your arms suck and your mission for the next 3 months is to bring them up, maybe devote a day to them, sounds reasonable enough.

For what it's worth I most often do chest, back, legs these days as I like that balance and getting into the gym with decent frequency. I spent plenty of time squatting and pulling in some form 3-5 days weekly as well. Not saying I won't again but for work/life/fun balance it seems to fit well.

 

[primobolan]

Hernon was doing high frequency before JP even started training.

 

[primobolan]

I used to like the big beyond belief split.
Chest
Back
Bicep

Day 2
Legs
Delts
Tri

I had success with this as well. I think it was 92 or 93 I was using it. Wish I would have known how to eat properly back then.

 

[yellowbird1]

I saw a podcast where someone was talking about the guys who study hypertrophy he basically said they know all their studies are flawed and useless they just do them because they generate profit and their sole goal is to keep in business, keep relevant, get attention, aka keep their jobs. Aka like a cancer they don't benefit anyone they just exist to benefit themselves. As far as I know norton doesn't do studies he just parrots them for clicks like Mike and nippard. He reminds me of my 19 year ex how he runs up to the deadlift bar and twerks and girates his ass before a lift. She used to work at Rita's and clap her butt and twerk on the ice cream machine before pulling the lever.

Just listen to Lyle McDonald. He was one of the first guys on the Internet explaining all these studies and how hypertrophy works and how to lose weight. Said it all 20 years ago. Calls out everyone else's crap to this day. They all dump on him and call him a nut that you shouldn't listen to

 

[yellowbird1]

YES, JP is the guy who made me pump the breaks on P/P/L and switch to U/L. Then I took it to another level by doing TB, TB, U, L (4 workouts per week) so I could hit every body part 3x per week. The logic (now backed by the science) of higher frequency simply made sense to me. JP is the guy who really influenced me the most but I do have to give some credit to Phil Hernon who was preaching this decades ago.

What is TB? Triceps biceps? Total body? traps back? I've never heard the term

 

[bigzzz]

You are pretty much dead on. The issue with full body is that it works great for a beginner, needs more volume at some point in progression, and then needs to be schemed pretty carefully as you get strong (ie you are not squatting 4x6 @80% sets across 3x a week and adding weight weekly or at least not for long). Like all things it gets individual too.

While from a pure muscle accrual standpoint it makes sense to focus heavily on pushing up the big stimulative lifts while eating big in the kitchen, you run into the issue above. The 2nd issue is that even if managed perfectly, it leaves precious little room for accessory work if there's any volume on the bigger lifts. Those 3 days will push your CNS limit. You can't add much more or needs to be a single issue/careful selection. Probably fine for an all around athlete base but not someone in most strength sports or a BBer - perceived need for overflowing variety in that population is HUGE. So more sessions and lower frequency for each lift. Now you get upper/lower run twice a week or 4 days but big lifts are 2x a week and even then you end up scheming volume with them as you progress.

Want to break it up more Chest, Back, Legs. This is in my mind the classic BBing split and it's stood the test of time - likely for reasons you cite and I added to, good balance and tolerable. You can get in some good volume on big lifts and put in a solid amount of accessory and isolation work plus CNS hit shouldn't be too bad unless you are really pushing things or loading the volume up on big compounds. Even then just add a rest day or so during a week and lower frequency some.

More than that is excessive for most but, for everything there is a season. Probably useful pre-contest or in other scenarios or for people who just like to be in the gym frequently. Who am I to say. If your arms suck and your mission for the next 3 months is to bring them up, maybe devote a day to them, sounds reasonable enough.

For what it's worth I most often do chest, back, legs these days as I like that balance and getting into the gym with decent frequency. I spent plenty of time squatting and pulling in some form 3-5 days weekly as well. Not saying I won't again but for work/life/fun balance it seems to fit well.

You mean push, pull, legs with that?

 

[luki7788]

for most PPL will be perfect,
for less advanced people upper/lower
for beginners FBW
for very advanced some kind of bro split or any other combination that will allow them to work on weak points more

there is no point in complicating it all because today more people are looking for the perfect solution instead of just working hard

 

[st114]

With that logic, jordan should be following a brosplit or PPL routine but i guess hes too passionate about his high frequency heavy progressive overload focused training to go into more bodypart specific training. He would probably find it boring.

He said he got his biggest and strongest running a Bro split a few years ago, with a “density day” added at the end which was his deadlifts and heavy leg stuff.
I think that was around 2019? But he said he tried it again a few times since and just couldn’t recover from the volume

 

[st114]

Left Right Split will be a thing in 2026

I was on the T-nation forums around 2010ish when they were decent
This was a big trolling thing from the bigger guys there, and lots of people started taking it seriously for a bit
“Today is Left Upper”


Also for higher frequency stuff I prefer
Chest/Arms
Back/Shoulders
Legs

Or the Arnold antagonist split
Chest/Back
Shoulders/Arms
Legs

PPL turns me into a refrigerator with a big back and chest and no arms and delts

 

[comedycentral]

YES, JP is the guy who made me pump the breaks on P/P/L and switch to U/L. Then I took it to another level by doing TB, TB, U, L (4 workouts per week) so I could hit every body part 3x per week. The logic (now backed by the science) of higher frequency simply made sense to me. JP is the guy who really influenced me the most but I do have to give some credit to Phil Hernon who was preaching this decades ago.

This is pretty much the big beyond belief 4 day split back in the early 90s.
Day 1
Chest back bi
Day 2
Legs shoulder tri
Day 3
Full body
Day 4
Full body

 

[bigzzz]

I was on the T-nation forums around 2010ish when they were decent
This was a big trolling thing from the bigger guys there, and lots of people started taking it seriously for a bit
“Today is Left Upper”


Also for higher frequency stuff I prefer
Chest/Arms
Back/Shoulders
Legs

Or the Arnold antagonist split
Chest/Back
Shoulders/Arms
Legs

PPL turns me into a refrigerator with a big back and chest and no arms and delts

That first split you mention is a really good split which you almost never see.

 

[Mufasa123]

You mean push, pull, legs with that?

Yes but also no.

So pet peeve followed by some real reason - "push/pull" is it's own 2 day split like Upper/Lower. Basically squats/presses/tris one day and rows/pulldowns/bis/deads or pulling from the floor in some form on another. It's perfectly viable though posterior chain is now getting the hammer from big full body lifts (squats and pulls) 4x per week so you need to scheming/thoughtfulness and even better using OLs and variants without the eccentric (like high pulls from floor or hang for the most basic). Or maybe on 2nd workouts in a week you change things a bit. There's a reason why Westside defaulted to upper/lower - posterior chain (I think I recall Louie calling push/pull kind of useless and arbitrary back in the early 1990s - but my memory is fading too). Anyway, once you add a separate day for legs you are into the basic body-part split and you aren't doing push/pull. Sure...push/pull and then quietly saying + legs after might make it sound cooler but that's absolutely not what the old push/pull originally was.

Anyway it's a 3 day body-part split - I like to call it what it is - chest, back, legs and 99% of people using it, that's what it is. Functionally this works too because some people like to train bis with chest so they aren't overly fatigued from the heavy back work. Same with tris and back. Can also move shoulders around too on the two upper body days. Note that all of these small changes are 100% contradictory to the term "push/pull" because even just for upper body: tris push, bis pull, when most people train shoulders they are starting with compound press movements but any form or raise or upright row is absolutely pulling. Also to add to it, RDLs and any real compound exercise hitting the back and posterior chain is heavy legs/glutes too so it's both pulling and legs. I saw one guy above doing chest/back on same day (more akin to upper) and I think he was making room for arms/shoulders on another day - rarer but that works too and makes sense in individual priorities or preferences. In the end, it's all semantics, but it's a full blown body-part split at this point. We aren't training full body, upper/lower, or push/pull. Not shitting on it, I use it a ton and it's probably the best compromise for a decently experienced lifter that wants to include some variety/specialized movements and limit CNS fatigue just by frequency.

End of the day and doesn't really matter what anything is called. Philosophical point - people love to understand or question the "why's" - why we do something, why xyz is best (and there is absolutely no best at all times even for an individual person), etc...That's fun and at the end of the day good science should directly align with and help explain anecdotal experience. BUT if you really want to progress and get somewhere, understanding the "when's"...that's the ticket and 'when' is very individual both to the level of a given trainee as well as their near and long term goals. Knowing when he/she should use a 5 day split vs 3 day vs whole body to accomplish a given near-term goal on the road to his/her long-term goal...now we are getting somewhere. Example - not my favorite way of training but the very best time to use a higher volume, low intensity (%1RM), pump program...right after a big heavy compound strength cycle (BTW neither of these is optimal at ALL times).

KISS principle - focus on what matters, train progressively to improve what matters, eat according to your goal (gain/loss) - do this with consistency and discipline over time.

 

[qbkilla]

I was on the T-nation forums around 2010ish when they were decent
This was a big trolling thing from the bigger guys there, and lots of people started taking it seriously for a bit
“Today is Left Upper”


Also for higher frequency stuff I prefer
Chest/Arms
Back/Shoulders
Legs

Or the Arnold antagonist split
Chest/Back
Shoulders/Arms
Legs

PPL turns me into a refrigerator with a big back and chest and no arms and delts

I like both these too ...the first one is actually similar to a bro split as you could tweak it into a 5 day split

Chest + arms
Back + delts
Legs
Off
Arms + dips
Delts + chins
Off

The second one you listed good for supersets

 

[qbkilla]

Just listen to Lyle McDonald. He was one of the first guys on the Internet explaining all these studies and how hypertrophy works and how to lose weight. Said it all 20 years ago. Calls out everyone else's crap to this day. They all dump on him and call him a nut that you shouldn't listen to

This just came up on my feed lol. One take away, the Paul carter and "researcher" Chris beardsley method they are selling...is shit. They manipulate garbage studies worse than anyone to make a buck

 

[Flex500]

This just came up on my feed lol. One take away, the Paul carter and "researcher" Chris beardsley method they are selling...is shit. They manipulate garbage studies worse than anyone to make a buck

yup! I like Lyle...he can go a little hard at times and I get why people don't like him, but he's a smart guy.

 

[xpoc]

What is TB? Triceps biceps? Total body? traps back? I've never heard the term

TB= Total Body, correct. So I do Total Body on Mon and Wed. I do Upper on Fri. I do lower on Sat. Tue, Thu, Sun=OFF. That means every body part gets trained 3x per week, but never 2 days in a row.

 

[psychor]

 

[massephase]

he has several versions of upper lower, some with quite high volume, some very low volume, on youtube fully explained without the ... paywall

 

[Tank4411]

I do push, pull, legs off 2days then repeat….
On my off days I do a good deal of cardio… one day is liss the other is high intensity…. Absolutely love this split….