Question for Doggcrapp, Dirk, Phil..

[PHIL HERNON]

Here is what I recommend

Well, this is getting a little off base.

We all agree that genetics are what seperates the cream from the milk, no arguments from anyone. AlmostPro made a great post about that.

I (we) are talking about how did the genetic elite from today as compared to the genetic elite from 25 years ago gain 20-40 pounds of pure stage weight.

How did a genetic freak like 5 '8" Mike Mentzer go from the 210's, on stage, to the Gustavo Badell's pushing 250 @ 5'8. How did Coleman go from 250 - 300 lean, is he doing anything different than Bob Paris @ 225?

Nutrition? I don't know, other than quality protein powder making it more convenient to get in your optimal nutrients, food and what grows muscle hasn't changed, no groundbreaking knowledge there.

Training? No

Evolution? No

Supplements? Well, the argument is that alot more guys than are believed are doing very conservative dosages, I have no problem believing that, however this same thought process would also apply to 1989, 1984 and 1979.

So we have a 5'8" Mentzer and a 5'8" Badell, both eating properly, training properly, doing ballpark area dosages (just to be fair). How does Badell have him outweighed by 25-40 pounds?

How does a 6ft Coleman outweigh a 6ft Paris by 70 pounds. Hard to imagine having better genetics for the sport than Bob Paris (pillow biting aside).

3 major things have changed supplement wise: igf, insulin and synthetic gh.

Are these products what is making the difference and allowing these guys to still use conservative amounts of AAS, but add the extra 20-50 pounds of mass that their genetic counterparts from 25 years ago couldn't add?

It seems that you know the answer and are just patronizing us. Why dont you do this and step on stage at the USAs? Better yet, start training folks to become olympia winners! I want you to show us the reason!!! SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!! hhahaahaha just teasin u Marshmello. I need to pick on U once a day to build my self esteem from my horrible washed up life. I also know that you seem like a pretty nice guy and we would get along in person. We like to tease each other but I can see your passion and I really do enjoy what you bring to this site.

 

[marshall]

thats a good point.
RC was pretty small (relative to how big he is now) so why the massive jump in muscle mass in such a few short years. Look at him at his first Mr O and look at him at his first Mr O victory... something was increased. Was it more food? or drugs? Or both? he ALREADY HAD THE GENETICS.

That's what I'm saying bro, great genetics are always going to be around, they weren't just invented and aren't just new to the sport (just in greater number).

Bob Feller threw 98-99 mph
Nolan Ryan threw 98-100 mph
Randy Johnson in his prime 97-99 mph
Dwight Gooden 96-98 mph

Now if someone comes along and starts throwing 110, would make you take notice and ask how, wouldn't it?

 

[marshall]

It seems that you know the answer and are just patronizing us. Why dont you do this and step on stage at the USAs? Better yet, start training folks to become olympia winners! I want you to show us the reason!!!

Vintage Hernon ! hahahaha

I need to pick on U once a day to build my self esteem

I'm so glad that I could be of service to you

I also know that you seem like a pretty nice guy and we would get along in person. We like to tease each other but I can see your passion and I really do enjoy what you bring to this site.

You know damn well I'm going to remind you of this post next time I piss you off. hahahaha

Wait a minute.......you're not being nice to me so I can get your copy of Quad's DVD comp'd are you?

 

[Fullybuilt]

Best agalogy yet. Now to you guys who think you can get insane off huge cycles, let me ask you something. If cutler or coleman came on this board and said a typical cycle for them was 700test,400deca and some a bombs, would you belive thats it?

And Phil, yes I do understand. Of course 2g tren is gonna be diff from 2g test. I was just going off basics. A normal 2gram cycle is gonna consist of 1g test, and two other compounds. Usually something like deca/eq and an oral. When I say 2grams Im not saying 2g tren or 1g test and 1g anadrol. I would have stated that differently. Im just saying from what i've seen for someone of your level, a typical offseson cycle would be
2g test
1g deca/eq or 400-600tren
and maybe 150mg anadrol
60-70iu's HGH weekly
140-160iu's slin weekly
A typical contest diet would be
1-1.5test
500-700 tren
100mg var/winny ED
same GH and a tad less slin

Now dont quote me exactly on these cycles, im just saying thats much more realistic that a measly 700test,300eq(that one makes me laugh the most) and an oral.

That's what I'm saying bro, great genetics are always going to be around, they weren't just invented and aren't just new to the sport (just in greater number).

Bob Feller threw 98-99 mph
Nolan Ryan threw 98-100 mph
Randy Johnson in his prime 97-99 mph
Dwight Gooden 96-98 mph

Now if someone comes along and starts throwing 110, would make you take notice and ask how, wouldn't it?

 

[littlemack]

Marshal, I don't think I've ever met a guy who's brought up Mentzer that many times in one conversation! You are really a Mentzer fan aren't you? Hahaha. Man.
I saw him in all the mags growing up as a kid like you did, but I was never so obsessed with the guy! hahaha
Are you 5'8" Marshal? Come on now. I know you are. hehehe... Just kidding of course. He looked good during his day.
I really have nothing else to add to this thread but this, all through highschool, I followed Arnold's training principles b/c I thought he was the best and so I should train like him. All those Weider principles as well, 4-day splits, 3-day splits, etc... You guys remember that crap. I made ok progress, but when I switched to that Bulgarian program that was all the rage back in 90' and my gains blew through the roof. Same diet. No drugs. No supplements. Phil's now come up with a training program that's even better than that in my opinion! So my point is, the training has totally evolved and will continue to evolve. Same thing with diets. Don't you remember how the high carb diet was such the rage in the late 80's and early 90's. hahaha. Remember, ALL of the complex carb powders there were on the market? The so called "weight gainer" powders. hahaha. The same thing with drugs. People are cycling them smarter from what it sounds. I don't know if peoples genetics are necessarily improving, I just think we have larger numbers of genetically gifted people competing now. Bottom line. We go about this smarter than those old farts did back then. hahahahha

This is no different than anything else in life. We are constantly learning and improving our technologies, sciences, etc... Its just how the world works.
Remember, too, Mentzer didn't have a freak like RC to look up to when he was training. Bodybuilders are always looking to the guy who's on top at the time to compete against. The guys have slowly gotten bigger every year, and so the athletes are looking up to bigger and bigger athletes. I think we are approaching a ceiling on size though. The athletes will have to get taller.

The only other thing I want to say about the drug issue and larger doses is this...
LEARN HOW TO GROW OFF THE DRUGS FIRST!!!!

Smiles and hugs to everyone
-Mackster

 

[Magnum]

Man you guys need to chill. This is a freaking message board!! So what if we disagree on some issues. Doesn't mean we all have to start fightin amongst ourselves. I actually had some opinions to post, but after reading most of the responses I've changed my mind. One thing for sure though, some people are way too trusting of what otheres tell them.

 

[cryptasm]

did anyone here get this newsletter???? mid-90's

HARDCORE MUSCLE ROCKED!!!!

 

[marshall]

Marshal, I don't think I've ever met a guy who's brought up Mentzer that many times in one conversation! You are really a Mentzer fan aren't you? Hahaha. Man.
I saw him in all the mags growing up as a kid like you did, but I was never so obsessed with the guy! hahaha
Are you 5'8" Marshal? Come on now. I know you are. hehehe... Just kidding of course. He looked good during his day.
-Mackster

lol, I'm actually 6ft, but I know, I do refer to him alot. I try not to use him too much in getting my point across, but honestly I only know guys from the past, don't follow the sport very closely since the mid 90's. I only know the major names now.

My idea of an Olympian physique is Mentzer, Samir Bannout, Bob Paris, just to rattle off a couple of names. Most guys will laugh at that in this day and age, but imo those physiques will hold the test of time.

I do like Mentzer's nutrition theory, a calorie is a calorie, keep your macronutrients in line (what works for you personally), be it 40-30-30 or whatever. It doesn't kill your physique to drink a Coke, eat some french fries, have a slice of cake, if your macro's are on, it's 6 in one hand, 1/2 dozen in the other.

I've seen guys obsess over salad dressings, condiments etc...it's just udderly ridiculous. I remember Chris Duffy walking to his car from the gym with an umbrella because he was convinced too much sunlight would lower his testosterone level.

I also train Mentzer HIT style when my schedule is tough, like this summer. I worked out 5 times in August, 6 times this month and my results are great. I'll mix it up with other stuff depending on my schedule. But anyone who says HIT is a waste, either never followed the principles are didn't follow them properly.

Gotta love Mentzer!

 

[marshall]

I actually had some opinions to post, but after reading most of the responses I've changed my mind.

Sorry to hear that Magnum, your opinion is always valuable.

 

[littlemack]

Mentzer looked good. No doubt about that. 6'ft here too Marshal. I like the old school physiques. I prefer smaller stomachs and waists. Plus, I always thought those guys back then had really good symetry. That's what was emphasized. That's why you had guys like Frank Zane doing so well. I know symetry is still a huge part of the picture, but I wonder if pros aren't more caught up over mass these days. Everyone on a state and local level wants to compete as a heavyweight. Right out of the gate. They all want to come in at 200-220lbs ripped. All of my friends are this way. No one wants to come in at under 200. We're talking amateurs here. Locals. Heck, I'm natural and I'd never want to compete if I weren't 200lbs. ha.
The other thing about all of this, is I think more people understand their own body's more. Everyone responds just a little different to training, diet, and the supps and so they don't necessarily do what everyone else is doing. More tailoring going on. And you have guys who specialize in helping bodybuilders come in dry for shows now. I still see a LOT of guys training one bodypart per workout. Its amazing. Maybe that's what works for them, but that never worked for me at all. These guys are all competing on a state level too. Never tried HIT, but its got a huge following.
I'm rambling and way off topic now.
Not to worry Magnum. I think for the most part everyones pretty chilled.

 

[Magnum]

OK here goes. I can only post about how I feel and what I know. Not meaning to step on any toes. Over the years I have seen many different types of physiques. Some guys with great genetics (muscle shape) that didn't respond to well to drugs. Some with bad genetics, but responded great to drugs although with their shape they were never going to be world class bb but they got pretty big. I've known a handful who had great muscle bellies and responded great to small doses (500 to 1000mg per week) and some with great genetics, but needed higher doses say 2-4 grams a week. I've seen some guys triple their doses and not really get much out of it and I've seen some triple their doses and get triple the gains. My point is there are all kinds of genetics out there so many of you guys are right and wrong.

When we talk about the top guys, you know the ones who are on stage anywhere from 250 to 300 then I believe they are doing high doses of drugs whether it be steroids or something else. I know that some guys on here claim some of the top guys are doing low doses of steroids. This actually is true. About 4 years ago I got my hands on some very secretive info. A certain top trainer who was training a couple if the tops guys and I happen to get my hands on about 100 pages worth of everyting that these guys where doing. Now, I am not ever going to mention names so please don't ask, but I will say that I was pretty surprised about how low their steroid doses were. They were doing about 750 to 1000 mgs per week. Pretty low dose for being so freakin big. Upon further reading I realized what these guys were doing to get so big. They were both doing about 60 to 80 iu's of insulin and large doses of GH per day. I can tell you that most of the pros are doing this no matter what they tell you. How many guys would admit to that? I certainly wouldn't.

There is no way that nutrition or training techniques are putting on 40 extra pounds of muscle on guys today. I KNOW when insulin was starting to be used and it fits perfectly as to when some of these guys started to grow very large and way above normal steroid limits. Things have definately changed in the last 15 years. Especially with the use of insulin.

Here's one for you guys. One of the very top guys from about 20 years ago loved doing 3-5 A 50, an amp of primo acetate and an amp of para daily for his pre contest prep. Started this about 10 weeks out if I am remembering correctly. I heard this directly from an IFBB judge. Don't know what else he might have been doing. I know that high dose test was not to popular back then and of course no one but diabetics were doing slin.

 

[Fullybuilt]

I agree about the GH and slin. I hate it when people 250+ say they take 3iu's of GH. Thats just ridiculus. I have a buddy who's qualified for nat's who has amazing genetics and used 15iu's GH daily when preparing for the last show that qualified for nats. I also have a few friends who are close to cutler(vegas croud) and he has admitted to using 20iu's daily of GH. Also I wish I remember where I heard it, but apparently ronnie uses or used 30iu's slin 3x daily.

 

[Big L]

I agree about the GH and slin. I hate it when people 250+ say they take 3iu's of GH. Thats just ridiculus. I have a buddy who's qualified for nat's who has amazing genetics and used 15iu's GH daily when preparing for the last show that qualified for nats. I also have a few friends who are close to cutler(vegas croud) and he has admitted to using 20iu's daily of GH. Also I wish I remember where I heard it, but apparently ronnie uses or used 30iu's slin 3x daily.

Dayum , I got big just reading that shit!

 

[KillerStack]

Good stuff Magnum!

There is no way that nutrition or training techniques are putting on 40 extra pounds of muscle on guys today. I KNOW when insulin was starting to be used and it fits perfectly as to when some of these guys started to grow very large and way above normal steroid limits. Things have definately changed in the last 15 years. Especially with the use of insulin.

Yes I don't see how an already advanced trainer suddenly puts on 30-40lbs of bodyweight by just tweaking his nutrition intake. It is Chemical warfare, even among the genetic elite. Without knowing what anyone does I would still say it's safe to say a Branch Warren does more 'shit' than a Phil Heath. Someone like Heath can get away with moderate drug use because of his superior structure and muscle bellies. Now if he suddenly explodes with an additional 30lbs of muscle I'll never believe it was due to tweaking his nutrition alone.

 

[KillerStack]

I remember Chris Duffy walking to his car from the gym with an umbrella because he was convinced too much sunlight would lower his testosterone level.

Haha, you witnessed this? I remember reading a few articles by him in Flex mag and he was definitely weird.

 

[BrooklynBB]

Food and Vitamins DEFINITELY play a huge role.

I have to disagree with nutrition changing that much. It doesn't account for the size increase in the last 2 decades for example IMO. Now if you said guys today eat more then maybe yeah in many cases they eat more than the old-timers. But what has really changed with nutrition, what has gotten more advanced? Rice, potatoes, oatmeal, chicken, red meat, eggs... what's advanced with this? The best physiques are still built with basic nutrition. Then you have the several pros who live to a large degree on junk food in the off-season.

We're in agreement that the actual food has not changed, but where we disagree is on the point I made that you didn't bring up - the manufacturing of food and availabilty of different types of food make it easier for humans to absorb the nutrients contained within. As well, Science has progressed our understanding that fats are actually - GASP - beneficial! Back in the 70's fats were one of the worst things you can take in your diet. Now it's being preached that fats are very necessary for hormone production and overall health.

As well, carbs seemed to be at a bare minimum. Listen to what some of the guys ordered on the Pumping Iron DVD - steak and eggs over and over again. Look at thier plates: thier carbs consisted of a few leaves and a carrot stick - LOL... Not exactly your modern bodybuilding diet.

So the food itself definitely HAS not changed, again we agree here. But the understanding of how to group the macronutrients to create a desired effect has most definitely progressed and changed to benefit bodybuilders and bodybuilding, and definitely contributed to the size increase.

Protein drinks have made it easier to consume more high quality protein easier but apart from convenience does protein powder make you pack on more muscle compared to whole food protein? Nope, in my opinion. There are some huge beasts who rarely even drink protein shakes. Tom Prince comes to mind as one who thought it was crap. He said he would only rarely drink them and that whole food was much better.

I agree with you - never did I mention protein shakes in my post. I'm talking about food intake and how to partition the macronutrients, vitamins, minerals and herbs.

Post workout nutrition seems a huge thing nowadays. Yes a quick carb/protein feeding help with recovery and growth in the long run but not every pro does this. For example in Ronnies vid he goes out to eat at a restaurant post workout and on Mayhem a kid asks "but doesn't Ronnie get a recovery drink immediately after?", Chad replies "no he ate before the workout and he eats 45 minutes after so he is fine" LOL... remember that the "science" of post workout shakes etc are fueled to a large degree by supplement companies to sell product.

3 things:

1 - Ronnie Coleman is on a different plane than any other bodybuilder out there. This has been repeated over and over again, but it's a fact and needs to apparently be repeated again: The guy was huge before he started lifting, he grew like a weed when he was powerlifting, grew even larger when he was bodybuilding, and neither his training nor his diet should be the standard by which we attempt to get huge.

2 - Do you really think Ronnie is going to tell us EVERYTHING he does?? Just read his interview with that website that uses bodybuilding as thier name (I really can't stand that place, sorry, but I need to know what the enemy is doing... and what he tells the guy who asks him about his diet and training. Very flatly he says there's no way he's going to get into the specifics of his training and diet. What we saw on the videos he put out was for entertainment, not for a case-study on how to train.

3 - BUT ... since you used Ronnie, in Cost of Redemption about 45 minutes in he pulls out a little pill organizer with 16 slots - all filled - and goes on to describe what each pill is. You tell me if even ONE bodybuilder from the 70's took ALL this shit - I know the answer is ZERO, since one of the items definitely weren't even created back then:

1. Vitamin E
2. Co-Q 10
3. Chromium
4. Multi-Vitamin
5. Multi-Mineral
6. Vitamin C
7. Celebrex
8. 81mg St. Joseph's Aspirin
9. Calcium
10. ZMA
11. Omega-3's
12. "Prostate Tablets" ... could be anything
13. Lutein tablets
14. Multi-Vitamin (apparently he takes two?)
15. Liver tablets
16. DHEA (OH MY GOD HE JUICES?! [i kid])

So Science in terms of supplementation has definitely contributed.

IMO it's not as critical as it's made out to be as long as you eat regularly throughout the day. You will have carbs and aminos floating in your bloodstream at all times if you do this anyway. This is not to say post workout nutrition wont make any difference at all but just to put it in perspective.

But with your argument, I can say that only one or two meals per day is needed to keep a circulating flow of amino acids available, since the body is very good at homeostasis and will break down what it needs to to create fuel. Eat a meal consisting of everything you need, twice a day, and sip on water, and you'll have a steady flow of aminos / carbs in your bloodstream as well.

The truth is that whether or not you eat post workout doesn't mean you wont grow - of course you will. There are plenty of pros who don't care for post workout shakes. Great! But those are the PROS ... us regular humanoids just wont get away with it if we want results on a somewhat consistent basis. We need to get our body working harder to build muscle and a steady rate and prevent catabolism, and that's a hell of a lot easier eating a PWO shake or meal than it is to not have one.

But again, my point isn't about shakes or protein, it is about advancements in how to eat better and our understanding of supplements, improvement in food manufacturing and availability, and genetics contributing to the mass monsters on stage.

EDIT - And to clarify, I'm not saying this is the CAUSE of it - I'm saying CONTRIBUTED...

 

[KillerStack]

We're in agreement that the actual food has not changed, but where we disagree is on the point I made that you didn't bring up - the manufacturing of food and availabilty of different types of food make it easier for humans to absorb the nutrients contained within. As well, Science has progressed our understanding that fats are actually - GASP - beneficial! Back in the 70's fats were one of the worst things you can take in your diet. Now it's being preached that fats are very necessary for hormone production and overall health.

I thought the nutrient levels have gone down in foods? At least that's what I always hear, foods are processed more, less antioxidants etc?

BTW, regarding the pills in Ronnie's box; remember Lou Ferrigno downing pills in Pumping Iron? Nice Weider supplement plug LOL But I get your point.

 

[Qwert]

:juing-s :juing-s :juing-s Fellas, fellas, fellas. Stop this bickering & lets give one another a group hug & just relax. Modern day BB is 49% workouts with aero dynamically designed space age machines, 49% nutrition consiting of zen micro biotics, ion exchnaged cold filtered whey & of course grape juice & chromium picolinate & vanadil sulfate for that insulin surge to transport the whey goodness into those hard trained muscle cells no later than 38.7 minutes after a workout & only a mere 2% drugs, consisitng of no more than 1cc primo & 1cc deca & maybe if you feel like a daredevil, throw in 2iu GH eod. For goD's sake don't actually use insulin, as chromium, vanadyl & alpha lipoic acid will do the same job, but better & more naturally & healthily, which, of course, what BB is all about: Health, fitness & the American way. All pros adhere to this rule & that has made all the difference between the 30-40+ lbs of weight gain in the pros in the last 10 years. Look at Lee Priest. The man is the epitomy of truth, justice & the American, by the way of Australia, way. He's probably having a cold choco whey shake as I write this & thinking about how he will devote his life to helping wayward BBs with his Lee Priest Foundation. May goD bless all the top pros & may their dosages always remain under 200mg in total, while they use gut busting space age workouts & organic food as anabolics. I mean, a free range grilled chicken breast done on a George Foreman grill will be much more anabolic than 1cc of tren AND it's legal & the height of morality as well. USA :jumping-: USA :jumping-:USA :jumping-:USA :jumping-:USA :jumping-:USA :jumping-:USA....

 

[gooey]

um...

Well, this is getting a little off base.

We all agree that genetics are what seperates the cream from the milk, no arguments from anyone. AlmostPro made a great post about that.

I (we) are talking about how did the genetic elite from today as compared to the genetic elite from 25 years ago gain 20-40 pounds of pure stage weight.

How did a genetic freak like 5 '8" Mike Mentzer go from the 210's, on stage, to the Gustavo Badell's pushing 250 @ 5'8. How did Coleman go from 250 - 300 lean, is he doing anything different than Bob Paris @ 225?

Nutrition? I don't know, other than quality protein powder making it more convenient to get in your optimal nutrients, food and what grows muscle hasn't changed, no groundbreaking knowledge there.

Training? No

Evolution? No

Supplements? Well, the argument is that alot more guys than are believed are doing very conservative dosages, I have no problem believing that, however this same thought process would also apply to 1989, 1984 and 1979.

So we have a 5'8" Mentzer and a 5'8" Badell, both eating properly, training properly, doing ballpark area dosages (just to be fair). How does Badell have him outweighed by 25-40 pounds?

How does a 6ft Coleman outweigh a 6ft Paris by 70 pounds. Hard to imagine having better genetics for the sport than Bob Paris (pillow biting aside).

3 major things have changed supplement wise: igf, insulin and synthetic gh.

Are these products what is making the difference and allowing these guys to still use conservative amounts of AAS, but add the extra 20-50 pounds of mass that their genetic counterparts from 25 years ago couldn't add?

u cannot compare TWO very different people with different frames, and different DNA structures. If You want to do a cross comparison do it with one BBer with both of these styles of drug regiments, you cannot compare these people directly point at drugs being the only variable that leads to the difference. Mabye you should do a longitudinal study on the effects of long term muti gear use compared to what your favorite 70's and 80's BBers used. You cannot make a statement without some clearly supported statistics or support for your arguments. "Bob is bigger cuz he uses lot of different drugs and more drugs?" Eliminate some of these variables with some supported facts or otherwise just a argument once again to state how much u adore the "classic physiques" as they say. Lastly things have changed name pose back in the arnold years that emphasized ones legs? And how many showed chest and arms? Todays BBer is about conditioning and proportion and freaky size not a beach bod with big arms and a big chest.
gooey

 

[KillerStack]

I just remembered a quote by Mentzer, in MD magazine, pretty close before he died. He said something to the effect of "The only improvement I can see in todays physiques that all the new drugs have caused is a bigger vastus lateralis". He thought the physiques in his time were comparable to today except today they have bigger thighs.