Question specifically for people that turned their BACK from a weak to a good or even a strong bodypart

[slayer37]

thanks but it looks like you grew pretty proportionally to me, at least from the pictures you posted.

Ok disregard then.

 

[IFBBProDomCardone]

1. Learn to control the eccentric.
2. Always be progressing on force production.
3. Limit cables and machines. Focus on plate and dumbell rows with 1 and 2.

Once you learn to truly pull from the lats and control the eccentric things will take off.

One trick Toney Freeman taught me for dialing in muscle engagement that’s stuck with me over the years is to imagine that you are pulling your elbow into your rhomboid as you perform each rep on a back movement.

Training back should be just as hard as training legs IMO

This right here is the golden egg for most.

 

[dantes]

This right here is the golden egg for most.

You’re not a fan of cables and machines for back? I am not saying they are the end all be all but probably make up 50% of my back workout.

 

[bbxtreme]

You’re not a fan of cables and machines for back? I am not saying they are the end all be all but probably make up 50% of my back workout.

I didn’t say not to do them. I said to limit them while trying to bring up a stubborn back.

More specifically I would say use them after heavy rows when trying to build a stubborn back.

You just won’t get the same force production and stabilization from a cable that you can with free weights or plated rows on back.

 

[massephase]

I didn’t say not to do them. I said to limit them while trying to bring up a stubborn back.

More specifically I would say use them after heavy rows when trying to build a stubborn back.

You just won’t get the same force production and stabilization from a cable that you can with free weights or plated rows on back.

One thing I have noticed that may lead someone to believe that free weight rows are more stimulative is that exercises with lengthened biased resistance profiles look less „forceful“. With shortened biased movements you need to use momentum to get into the contracted position and that’s why they look more spectacular or powerful … but I’m not sure that they are any more effective because of that.

Another thing is that shortened biased movements produce more sensation in the muscle.

Not arguing against your point, this is just an aside thought that I had a lot when thinking about this topic.

 

[Josefein421]

The best backs of all time deadlifted heavy.

 

[Jose1990]

Proximal stability = distal strength.

When you have the most stabilization you can apply the most attention and force to the movement, so free weight movements would be the opposite of good movements for building a good back in my opinion.

For example, movements like a chest supported t-bar row, you can apply the most stability and have the focus and force ability generation.

Your core, your ability to brace always plays a role also.

A strong core and a stable machine will allow you to get the most out of your genetics in regards to back training.

 

[bbxtreme]

One thing I have noticed that may lead someone to believe that free weight rows are more stimulative is that exercises with lengthened biased resistance profiles look less „forceful“. With shortened biased movements you need to use momentum to get into the contracted position and that’s why they look more spectacular or powerful … but I’m not sure that they are any more effective because of that.

Another thing is that shortened biased movements produce more sensation in the muscle.

Not arguing against your point, this is just an aside thought that I had a lot when thinking about this topic.

I think we’re mostly saying the same thing. Cables are excellent for mechanical tension and controlling the eccentric. My point was specific to bringing up a stubborn back.

Heavy dumbbell, barbell and plate loaded rows require more force production and stabilization, and I think that’s something a lot of people with weak backs are missing.

The mistake is that most lifters load them too heavy and lose the eccentric completely.

I like using the heavy rows first, then finishing with cables where I can really control the negative and accumulate quality volume.

I think both serve different purposes. I just have seen a lot of guys with weak backs that struggle with force production, including myself. When it’s strong, my back looks completely different.

 

[specter]

This right here is the golden egg for most.

Agreed, i know it sounds "bro sciencey" but heavy compound movements, but with great form really trying to build that mind to muscle connection, sprinkle in some cable/machine movements for extra "concentrated" stimulation, thats what i have used with the people i have helped over the years and all have build great backs, using bands has helped alot of them to learn how to flex and really feel the back also even if you arent gonna compete practice posing the back that really helps, i did it with my abs/stomach and can flex most of my ab muscles independently now.

 

[Brocksamson2.0]

Learn the skill of RETRACTING your scapula

 

[dantes]

I didn’t say not to do them. I said to limit them while trying to bring up a stubborn back.

More specifically I would say use them after heavy rows when trying to build a stubborn back.

You just won’t get the same force production and stabilization from a cable that you can with free weights or plated rows on back.

Appreciate the clarification. I have done both methods free weights toward the end and beginning and an argument could made either way and I still go back and forth sometimes. As of right now I typically do my free weights rows after the chest supported as I prefer to be pre exhausted and have everything activated. I do typically start my back workout with pull ups though which is technically free weights/bodyweight

 

[IFBBProDomCardone]

Agreed, i know it sounds "bro sciencey" but heavy compound movements, but with great form really trying to build that mind to muscle connection, sprinkle in some cable/machine movements for extra "concentrated" stimulation, thats what i have used with the people i have helped over the years and all have build great backs, using bands has helped alot of them to learn how to flex and really feel the back also even if you arent gonna compete practice posing the back that really helps, i did it with my abs/stomach and can flex most of my ab muscles independently now.

Man, great post and I couldn't agree anymore! Nailed every single part. Its bro science sure, but it rare you see deep depth in the overall back, hanging lats these days. I do enjoy cables and machines as you said, cable pulldowns, stiff arm pushdowns/pull overs, seated rows and plate loaded machines. But the basics like barbell rows, t bars, deads, db rows will always be king.

 

[specter]

Man, great post and I couldn't agree anymore! Nailed every single part. Its bro science sure, but it rare you see deep depth in the overall back, hanging lats these days. I do enjoy cables and machines as you said, cable pulldowns, stiff arm pushdowns/pull overs, seated rows and plate loaded machines. But the basics like barbell rows, t bars, deads, db rows will always be king.

Thx man, means alot coming from a guy living of this game.

 

[Fa Seeshus]

Tree climbing and acorn pullovers gave me wings.

 

[massephase]

When you have the most stabilization you can apply the most attention and force to the movement, so free weight movements would be the opposite of good movements for building a good back in my opinion.

I would think the same. The one situation where it does make sense if all the exercises you have have an ascending resistance profile. Then free weight movements allow you to generate momentum and even out the strength curve so that you can load the stretch heavier than you otherwise could.

 

[neutrino]

Interesting, I had the opposite experience actually. How much do you barbell row for reps now?

Honestly, depends on the day and how "on" I feel. Warm up w/ 95s and pyramid up to anything between 185 and 245. Some days it feels heavy af for no reason. Other days it flies off the shelf. One thing I have realized it it is not really about moving the weight but actually feeling the contraction. Started clen 2 weeks ago and now my lats lock up like crazy past 2 sessions. Recently put in a high dose of taurine, hopefully this does not continue.

 

[Sectør]

Kind of like others have touched on, the thing that’s helped the most is a lot of heavy rows

Usually start back day with heavy underhand bb rows to really hit the lower back/lat area, then transition to overhand rows with more of a mid back/upper back emphasis

So it’ll look something like:
Underhand bb rows
Overhand bb rows (upper focused)
Cable rows for mid back

Then under/over/nuetral grip pull downs, then cable pull overs to finish

^^ I love this back day right here. Hits your back from every angle and really pumps it up. Balancing the volume can be tricky though with the amount of exercises you might have to limit each excersise to 2 sets


^^ can also swap the overhand bb rows for overhand t bar rows, and if you need more upper back isolation work then bent over reverse db flys are incredible as well

Then I’ll usually hit lower back on leg day (hyperextenions are underrated)

 

[Heath82]

I think meadows rows are one of the best exercises

 

[URODA]

Yea so long post with a rant yet surprised by misconceptions hope you find comment valuable

Free weights are better at force production how? Explosiveness sure yet however coined by Broderick Chavez momentum is the killer of gains. We know well by now that hypertrophy depends on the force produced by a particular muscle, the more coordination the movement demands, the more muscles involved, the more spread your force becomes. Hence why our goal is to emphasise as much as we can arguing that barbell rows are better than chest supported whatever row would be like arguing barbell squats versus hack squats or gymnast ring dips and prime chest press. Your back/quads/chest will produce more force with exercises designed to put emphasis where needed even when the movement may demand “lower” effort yet systemically.

On topic my best advice would be to watch biomechanics youtube channels like hypertrophy coach joe bennett, n1 education coach kassem hanson, pure/hd muscle coach eric seifert check their educational material on back.

Personally what helped me the most even considering my back was pretty decent (525lb deadlift natural, 660lb with just a year geared up weighing 220lb semilean) was understanding that often parroted drive with your elbows cue makes sense yet when considering trajectory only. When you initiate the movement you do that with your shoulders. Thought experiment, what exercise isolates your lats? Pullover. What exercise isolates your traps and rhomboids? Yea Shrugs (normal or kelso). What single joint moves? Your shoulders.

Do your chest supported rows and pulldowns with your shoulders extended or depressed and your scapula protracted or retracted depending on goal. Example depressing your shoulders can make your pulldowns emphasise your lower lats while extending your upper.

Cheers

 

[massephase]

Yea so long post with a rant yet surprised by misconceptions hope you find comment valuable

Free weights are better at force production how? Explosiveness sure yet however coined by Broderick Chavez momentum is the killer of gains. We know well by now that hypertrophy depends on the force produced by a particular muscle, the more coordination the movement demands, the more muscles involved, the more spread your force becomes. Hence why our goal is to emphasise as much as we can arguing that barbell rows are better than chest supported whatever row would be like arguing barbell squats versus hack squats or gymnast ring dips and prime chest press. Your back/quads/chest will produce more force with exercises designed to put emphasis where needed even when the movement may demand “lower” effort yet systemically.

On topic my best advice would be to watch biomechanics youtube channels like hypertrophy coach joe bennett, n1 education coach kassem hanson, pure/hd muscle coach eric seifert check their educational material on back.

Personally what helped me the most even considering my back was pretty decent (525lb deadlift natural, 660lb with just a year geared up weighing 220lb semilean) was understanding that often parroted drive with your elbows cue makes sense yet when considering trajectory only. When you initiate the movement you do that with your shoulders. Thought experiment, what exercise isolates your lats? Pullover. What exercise isolates your traps and rhomboids? Yea Shrugs (normal or kelso). What single joint moves? Your shoulders.

Do your chest supported rows and pulldowns with your shoulders extended or depressed and your scapula protracted or retracted depending on goal. Example depressing your shoulders can make your pulldowns emphasise your lower lats while extending your upper.

Cheers

I agree. I think the reason why these movements can make sense is that they allow you to even out the resistance profile through momentum. Unless you have good machines, most back exercises are heavy in the contracted position (unlike presses with dumbbells and barbells etc). So by using momentum, you can use heavy weight to overload the stretched position. But if you have machines that do that for you, these movements actually become worse because of the stabilization aspect which takes away from the tension you can place on the target muscle/ the activation you can get there

but of course real life evidence can never be ignored