Question specifically for people that turned their BACK from a weak to a good or even a strong bodypart

[URODA]

Okay double post could not edit flexing your shoulders correction.

 

[URODA]

I agree. I think the reason why these movements can make sense is that they allow you to even out the resistance profile through momentum. Unless you have good machines, most back exercises are heavy in the contracted position (unlike presses with dumbbells and barbells etc). So by using momentum, you can use heavy weight to overload the stretched position. But if you have machines that do that for you, these movements actually become worse because of the stabilization aspect which takes away from the tension you can place on the target muscle/ the activation you can get there

but of course real life evidence can never be ignored

Yea so one thing where machines can excel would be overloading your stretch like t-bar chest and free weight actually or lowering your seat on plate loaded pulldown machines and high row cheers

 

[Big Dave Smith]

Relying on internal cues was tough for me.

I used to do deadlifts, barbell rows, and all the old school stuff. It was mostly junk, I never grew a good back.

Deadlifts are moved by your ass and hips. Your back is just experiencing a strong isometric contraction. Lots of systemic fatigue.

Barbell Rows are limited by your ability to hold yourself in position. You’re leaking/wasting tons of energy to stabilize the bar path for the sake of your lats. If you have any thrust, you eliminate half the movement and further exhaust shit you’re not trying to target.

For all muscles, you have to think about the resistance profile an exercise offers. The best exercises offer tension from peak lengthening to peak contraction. If you don’t fully lengthen (doesn’t necessarily mean deep stretch), you’ll likely be over involving muscles other than what you’re training… (Ex: guys that do pull ups without going all the way down).

From the lengthened position, your lats need to move FIRST. Your lats move your shoulder, your shoulder moves your arm, your arm moves the bar. If this isn’t happening, you won’t get a good “connection”.

Mind muscle connection is a bullshit euphemism. If your technique is sound and your resistance profile is complete, you shouldn’t need to think or concentrate any harder to “activate” a muscle.

Ex: For pulldowns, if your upper arm is in front of you, it’ll hit your lats more. As your upper arms wing out to the sides, you’ll involve more of your teres and upper back. With elbows at your sides (wide grip pulldown), it’s less lat, more upper back. (Still some lat, but not as much. Elbows in front (unilateral pulldowns, CG pulldowns), it’s majority lat.

Eliminate all momentum. No thrusting, no rebounding, etc. Lat draws back FIRST. Control the negatives, but if you over exaggerated the negatives, your biceps may take over a bit too much.

I was criticized by judges for years about my back. Scrapped everything I “learned” and only did exercises based on utility and value for 2 years. My back double and back lat spreads are two of my strongest poses now.

 

[brg911]

When i got serios to grow mine it was just heavy ass rows. Specifically BB but also DB rows, but controlling the weight on DBs by pulling the elbow to the hips and not letting the weight fall a
straigjt down but moving it forward like your trying ro pull start a lawn mower. Or maybe it was just making a concious effort to work the crap out of it and not use the biceps. Also i started uaing straps to limit the bicep involvement

 

[Big Dave Smith]

When i got serios to grow mine it was just heavy ass rows. Specifically BB but also DB rows, but controlling the weight on DBs by pulling the elbow to the hips and not letting the weight fall a
straigjt down but moving it forward like your trying ro pull start a lawn mower. Or maybe it was just making a concious effort to work the crap out of it and not use the biceps. Also i started uaing straps to limit the bicep involvement

No offense here, but…

This is a good example of bad advice.


Gravity is up or down. The forward to backwards motion doesn’t follow the best resistance profile. You’re creating a new resistance profile that doesn’t align properly.

Straps limit grip strength, but have nothing to do with “more or less arms”. If you aren’t using straps to begin with, you will never build the biggest back possible.

Nobody ever heard “Oh, I have to lift heavy. I didn’t realize.” It’s like telling a sprinter to run faster. Ain’t that why we’re here?

If you are feeling biceps, it’s not about “using less biceps”. It’s about technique, getting the lat to fully lengthen prior to beginning the next rep. This inherently means that your arm should be lengthened at the bottom. Lengthened arm + lengthened lat = lat recruitment from the initial pull.

 

[qbkilla]

Relying on internal cues was tough for me.

I used to do deadlifts, barbell rows, and all the old school stuff. It was mostly junk, I never grew a good back.

Deadlifts are moved by your ass and hips. Your back is just experiencing a strong isometric contraction. Lots of systemic fatigue.

Barbell Rows are limited by your ability to hold yourself in position. You’re leaking/wasting tons of energy to stabilize the bar path for the sake of your lats. If you have any thrust, you eliminate half the movement and further exhaust shit you’re not trying to target.

For all muscles, you have to think about the resistance profile an exercise offers. The best exercises offer tension from peak lengthening to peak contraction. If you don’t fully lengthen (doesn’t necessarily mean deep stretch), you’ll likely be over involving muscles other than what you’re training… (Ex: guys that do pull ups without going all the way down).

From the lengthened position, your lats need to move FIRST. Your lats move your shoulder, your shoulder moves your arm, your arm moves the bar. If this isn’t happening, you won’t get a good “connection”.

Mind muscle connection is a bullshit euphemism. If your technique is sound and your resistance profile is complete, you shouldn’t need to think or concentrate any harder to “activate” a muscle.

Ex: For pulldowns, if your upper arm is in front of you, it’ll hit your lats more. As your upper arms wing out to the sides, you’ll involve more of your teres and upper back. With elbows at your sides (wide grip pulldown), it’s less lat, more upper back. (Still some lat, but not as much. Elbows in front (unilateral pulldowns, CG pulldowns), it’s majority lat.

Eliminate all momentum. No thrusting, no rebounding, etc. Lat draws back FIRST. Control the negatives, but if you over exaggerated the negatives, your biceps may take over a bit too much.

I was criticized by judges for years about my back. Scrapped everything I “learned” and only did exercises based on utility and value for 2 years. My back double and back lat spreads are two of my strongest poses now.

Curious...how would you perform rows to specifically hit the rear delts? I would assume a wider grip and pull towards the bottom of the pec? Would overhead vs underhand matter?

 

[Swifto]

Relying on internal cues was tough for me.

I used to do deadlifts, barbell rows, and all the old school stuff. It was mostly junk, I never grew a good back.

Deadlifts are moved by your ass and hips. Your back is just experiencing a strong isometric contraction. Lots of systemic fatigue.

Barbell Rows are limited by your ability to hold yourself in position. You’re leaking/wasting tons of energy to stabilize the bar path for the sake of your lats. If you have any thrust, you eliminate half the movement and further exhaust shit you’re not trying to target.

For all muscles, you have to think about the resistance profile an exercise offers. The best exercises offer tension from peak lengthening to peak contraction. If you don’t fully lengthen (doesn’t necessarily mean deep stretch), you’ll likely be over involving muscles other than what you’re training… (Ex: guys that do pull ups without going all the way down).

From the lengthened position, your lats need to move FIRST. Your lats move your shoulder, your shoulder moves your arm, your arm moves the bar. If this isn’t happening, you won’t get a good “connection”.

Mind muscle connection is a bullshit euphemism. If your technique is sound and your resistance profile is complete, you shouldn’t need to think or concentrate any harder to “activate” a muscle.

Ex: For pulldowns, if your upper arm is in front of you, it’ll hit your lats more. As your upper arms wing out to the sides, you’ll involve more of your teres and upper back. With elbows at your sides (wide grip pulldown), it’s less lat, more upper back. (Still some lat, but not as much. Elbows in front (unilateral pulldowns, CG pulldowns), it’s majority lat.

Eliminate all momentum. No thrusting, no rebounding, etc. Lat draws back FIRST. Control the negatives, but if you over exaggerated the negatives, your biceps may take over a bit too much.

I was criticized by judges for years about my back. Scrapped everything I “learned” and only did exercises based on utility and value for 2 years. My back double and back lat spreads are two of my strongest poses now.

What. back exercises are you doing now and attribute your back development to?

 

[Big Dave Smith]

What. back exercises are you doing now and attribute your back development to?

We have a flat bench at my gym where you can elevate it high off the ground. I add some bumper plates for extra height. On it, I do DB rows for lats and rows for upper back. It’s similar to a seal row, but I position the exercise so the balls of my feet are secured to the ground.
-Complete resistance profile, full tension from lengthened position to contraction.
-Unlimited loading potential with very few limiting factors. (Limiting factors = loss of stability as weight increases, high systemic fatigue causing more exhaustion than lat stimulation, etc).

Kneeling Unilateral Pulldowns
-Unlimited loading protential.
-Wicked stretch and perfect contraction where I can draw my elbow/humerus forward.
-Low systemic fatigue.

Unilateral Stiff Arm Pulls
-Standing sort of angled (Pulling side leg is the leg further away, near side leg slower to the stack)
-Hand position between neutral and underhanded.
-Deep stretch and contraction here.
-Limiting factors here would be stability strength increases, but it’s the last exercise I do after fatiguing lats, so not a problem.

The rest of the focus is on similar pulldowns and chest supported rows, but the two exercises above I’ve hammered for years, trying to get as strong within desired rep ranges as possible. I just try to find the best option at whatever gym I’m at for a lat row, an upper back row, a lat vertical pull, an upper back vertical pull, and a final exercise for lats with a wicked stretch.

Generally speaking, I rarely do exercises if they’re missing part of the resistance profile or cause “other shit to fail” before lats… Ex: TBar Rows. Most set ups allow for a good stretch, but the contraction is sort of forced. By the time you’ve pulled halfway up, your elbows are forced to bend into a position biomechanically favorable to use biceps. Over the course of your set, your glutes, legs, and spine are fighting just to keep you in place. Most people even do a little bumpy bump at the bottom, removing part of the benefit. If I want to train my erectors, I’d rather choose a better exercise than gloss over it by happenstance, and not risk my discs slipping.

The gym I’m at now has all the badass Prime and Panatta stuff. I’ve never had such good training.

Little bit of an autistic rant, but hopefully the ideas help. Instead of “what exercises?”, it’s more “Just find the best possible options and make steady progress over time.”

 

[Fleezy]

We have a flat bench at my gym where you can elevate it high off the ground. I add some bumper plates for extra height. On it, I do DB rows for lats and rows for upper back. It’s similar to a seal row, but I position the exercise so the balls of my feet are secured to the ground.
-Complete resistance profile, full tension from lengthened position to contraction.
-Unlimited loading potential with very few limiting factors. (Limiting factors = loss of stability as weight increases, high systemic fatigue causing more exhaustion than lat stimulation, etc).

Kneeling Unilateral Pulldowns
-Unlimited loading protential.
-Wicked stretch and perfect contraction where I can draw my elbow/humerus forward.
-Low systemic fatigue.

Unilateral Stiff Arm Pulls
-Standing sort of angled (Pulling side leg is the leg further away, near side leg slower to the stack)
-Hand position between neutral and underhanded.
-Deep stretch and contraction here.
-Limiting factors here would be stability strength increases, but it’s the last exercise I do after fatiguing lats, so not a problem.

The rest of the focus is on similar pulldowns and chest supported rows, but the two exercises above I’ve hammered for years, trying to get as strong within desired rep ranges as possible. I just try to find the best option at whatever gym I’m at for a lat row, an upper back row, a lat vertical pull, an upper back vertical pull, and a final exercise for lats with a wicked stretch.

Generally speaking, I rarely do exercises if they’re missing part of the resistance profile or cause “other shit to fail” before lats… Ex: TBar Rows. Most set ups allow for a good stretch, but the contraction is sort of forced. By the time you’ve pulled halfway up, your elbows are forced to bend into a position biomechanically favorable to use biceps. Over the course of your set, your glutes, legs, and spine are fighting just to keep you in place. Most people even do a little bumpy bump at the bottom, removing part of the benefit. If I want to train my erectors, I’d rather choose a better exercise than gloss over it by happenstance, and not risk my discs slipping.

The gym I’m at now has all the badass Prime and Panatta stuff. I’ve never had such good training.

Little bit of an autistic rant, but hopefully the ideas help. Instead of “what exercises?”, it’s more “Just find the best possible options and make steady progress over time.”

how many work sets and reps

 

[massephase]

how many work sets and reps

3

 

[massephase]

how many work sets and reps

Asking the really important questions

 

[traininsane11]

Asking the really important questions

Yeah but if we know EXACTLY what someone else does and we copy it we will look EXACTLY like them

Which is pretty much like 50% of this forum the same people asking also the same people extremely nuance and totally unimportant questions searching for the holy grail

 

[Big Dave Smith]

how many work sets and reps

It depends, and it should for everyone.

Factors that influence how i gauge volume…
-calories/macros
-sleep
-exercises higher and lower in systemic fatigue
-PED load
-Day to day recovery based on “feel”. Even when the variables above are in a good or bad spot, “what am I physically prepared to do today” and “How will this impact my training tomorrow”. Basically auto regulation.

I do like most lat pulls, vertical or horizontal, between the 6-10 range. Mostly I land 6-8/9’ish. Upper back- 8-15 range.

Reps above 10 for lats, unless on a stiff arm type movement, tend to cause a broader fatigue to my pulling muscles, even when technique is A+. 6-9’ish, my lats fire hardest. Heavy load = more natural to use the largest muscle to move it. Thats why I stay above 8-10 for upper back. Smaller muscles = doesn’t feel as natural to use heavier loads. As the elbows move from your center line to the side of you body, shoulders/rotators get more involved. A heavier load makes my shoulders feel less stable, which could compromise technique.

I think if anyone is doing the same number of sets all the time, they’re missing the big picture.

 

[Sully1234]

No offense here, but…

This is a good example of bad advice.


Gravity is up or down. The forward to backwards motion doesn’t follow the best resistance profile. You’re creating a new resistance profile that doesn’t align properly.

Straps limit grip strength, but have nothing to do with “more or less arms”. If you aren’t using straps to begin with, you will never build the biggest back possible.

Nobody ever heard “Oh, I have to lift heavy. I didn’t realize.” It’s like telling a sprinter to run faster. Ain’t that why we’re here?

If you are feeling biceps, it’s not about “using less biceps”. It’s about technique, getting the lat to fully lengthen prior to beginning the next rep. This inherently means that your arm should be lengthened at the bottom. Lengthened arm + lengthened lat = lat recruitment from the initial pull.

Semi related - Do you use a belt when doing self supported back exercises?

 

[Big Dave Smith]

Semi related - Do you use a belt when doing self supported back exercises?

I almost never wear a belt for anything.

Belts are designed to create abdominal support, used mostly when needing to brace under heavy loads. Most bodybuilding exercises (excluding powerlifting movements) should be performed with your stomach pulling in.

I don’t do any bent over exercises without some sort of chest support. Most self supporting rows limit lat stimulation because you’re simultaneously having to rely on the stability of your erectors and other surrounding muscles… basically, your whole body gets tired before your lats hit failure, and the risk of a disc injury are just too high.

People “get away with” doing these movements, and have held onto them for mostly nostalgic purposes. A buddy of mine was rowing 315 and tore his hamstring. Why? The little boost he was getting by thrusting at the bottom (which DECREASES mechanical tension in the lat) went straight into his ass, legs, and discs. When we corrected his form, and he could ONLY move the weight with his lats, he literally had to decrease the weight on all pulling movements by 50%.

“It worked for me bro!” or “You gotta do the hard stuff!”, but when you break down the logic, their reasoning sort of crumbles. Unless someone only does bent rows, and does zero other exercises, they can’t say “bent rows built my back”. Most people train back with a wide variety of movements, giving the most credit to exercises they think will make them be perceived as hardcore.

I’d rather walk around with a huge back and zero injuries.

 

[Sully1234]

I almost never wear a belt for anything.

Belts are designed to create abdominal support, used mostly when needing to brace under heavy loads. Most bodybuilding exercises (excluding powerlifting movements) should be performed with your stomach pulling in.

I don’t do any bent over exercises without some sort of chest support. Most self supporting rows limit lat stimulation because you’re simultaneously having to rely on the stability of your erectors and other surrounding muscles… basically, your whole body gets tired before your lats hit failure, and the risk of a disc injury are just too high.

People “get away with” doing these movements, and have held onto them for mostly nostalgic purposes. A buddy of mine was rowing 315 and tore his hamstring. Why? The little boost he was getting by thrusting at the bottom (which DECREASES mechanical tension in the lat) went straight into his ass, legs, and discs. When we corrected his form, and he could ONLY move the weight with his lats, he literally had to decrease the weight on all pulling movements by 50%.

“It worked for me bro!” or “You gotta do the hard stuff!”, but when you break down the logic, their reasoning sort of crumbles. Unless someone only does bent rows, and does zero other exercises, they can’t say “bent rows built my back”. Most people train back with a wide variety of movements, giving the most credit to exercises they think will make them be perceived as hardcore.

I’d rather walk around with a huge back and zero injuries.

Appreciate the detail.

 

[maxrep24]

I almost never wear a belt for anything.

Belts are designed to create abdominal support, used mostly when needing to brace under heavy loads. Most bodybuilding exercises (excluding powerlifting movements) should be performed with your stomach pulling in.

I don’t do any bent over exercises without some sort of chest support. Most self supporting rows limit lat stimulation because you’re simultaneously having to rely on the stability of your erectors and other surrounding muscles… basically, your whole body gets tired before your lats hit failure, and the risk of a disc injury are just too high.

People “get away with” doing these movements, and have held onto them for mostly nostalgic purposes. A buddy of mine was rowing 315 and tore his hamstring. Why? The little boost he was getting by thrusting at the bottom (which DECREASES mechanical tension

“It worked for me bro!” or “You gotta do the hard stuff!”

Unfortunately i had to learn this the hard way, years of lower back issues and eventually surgery.
barbell squats, barbell rows, deadlifts, rdl’s all did absolutely nothing for my physique but cause injuries, i don’t do anything bent over anymore unless my chest or arm is supporting me.

 

[specter]

One guy came to mind today, Meadows, go look at all his back training work, i dont really know if my back was a weak bodypart for me as the whole reason i started training was a bad back after a car accident, so i stumpled upon John early on and his talks about how his back was a weak point and what he did to "fix it" so early on i learned about mind to muscle connection, how to choose exercises that "work for you" and not just follow whats trendy or exercises that you can be really strong on but doesnt translate to actual back mass, like i could barbell row 315lbs with good form, but it never really translated to mass, so i dropped the weight down to 175 and really focused on feeling the back work, at one point i was doing chest supported barbell rows and holy moly i could feel my back on those more so then when i was doing chest supported dumbell rows, find what works for you.

 

[specter]

This was my back in 2022

 

[Jeffo]

It surprises me how some people attribute the development of a certain body part to a specific exercise—usually one that isn’t part of the standard basics.

I tend to put more trust in the evidence backed by dozens and dozens of lifters of all kinds, from bodybuilders like Franco, Arnold, Yates to powerlifters and strongmen.

Isn’t the deadlift a useful and effective exercise for developing the back? Then how come all those strongmen who lift 500 kilos have massive backs?

Ahh, but you’re a bodybuilder and you want maximum hypertrophy and to target specific muscle groups—okay, I get it. That does mean incorporating a wider variety of exercises, but you shouldn’t rule out the barbell row or the deadlift.