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Raw Milk
- Thread starter Conan21
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BitsOBrawn
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hardkor said:
Bro it doesn't matter how much fat you are taking in. If your carbs are low enough and you on gear you'll be fine. Fat does not make you fat. If it did the ketogenic diets would never work. With all the other nutrients, enyzmes, and minerals in the milk the extra fat intake will do you good. Vitamin A and D, calcium etc. Did you read the Vitamin A article at www.westonaprice.org? It's under their men's health section. It's a great read and really makes you stop and think about your fat intake. A and D are only found in animal fats naturally. Vitamin A is necessary for the production of testosterone. Most bodybuilders don't get enough, shit most peopple don't get enough. When Weston A Price studied cultures like native eskimos who never suffered from the denegerative diseases we do today like heart disease, cancer, arthritis, diabetes etc. he said that they got upwards of ten times more amounts of those two fat soluble vitamins A and D than any western diet at the time. Eskimos got something like 80% of their calories from fat, saturated and from fish oils, whale blubber etc. Later!
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You always bring a good debate, Rock, and you are always prepared.
You guys can argue opinions and such but if you question anything he Bitsofbrawn is saying about any reference to articles, sites or anything else nutrition related you ought not to. Just check his info I gurantee he is accurate. I gave up long ago trying to discredit him. lol
Skip
You guys can argue opinions and such but if you question anything he Bitsofbrawn is saying about any reference to articles, sites or anything else nutrition related you ought not to. Just check his info I gurantee he is accurate. I gave up long ago trying to discredit him. lol
Skip
- Joined
- May 18, 2003
- Messages
- 374
Well,
I would hate to think this is an argument. I like to have information presented to me because perhaps someone else is correct and I am not aware of the total information.
However, we continue to say that the information presented here is FACT...yet we still have not shown peer reviewed scientific information to support our statements. Statements made by farmers, fitness experts, or just people who like a healthy life are not fact...they are opinion however in this thread we are stating them as fact.
There is no need for me to contact various Organic Food organisations because they will readily agree that the main reason we process perishable items like milk is due to the handling the consumer will give them...ie..during shipping, in the home etc...The Organic Dairy will also assure you that because they themselves have low bacterial counts it has NO bearing on what happens on a large scale and mishandling by consumers. Without pasteurisation the bacteria load is higher therefore milk will only last a short period of time (a couple days).
Organic milk producers undergo inspection by...uh...Food Technologist to ensure they are using proper handling procedures. Their milk is still examined for what is called microbial load or any detection of a range of bacteria that may indicate fecal contamination. So maybe I do have a clue as to what I am talking about?
My background is in food technology & nutrition. I have worked with food in industry for MANY years. This includes several years as a quality control microbiolgist. Protein foods such as milk and eggs are hosts for bacteria. They require care for todays consumer who is not aware how to handle or prepare food. (it also prevents law suits LOL). In fact I would use milk, meats, eggs to induce bacteria growth. (when was the last time you made homemade ice cream, cheese,yogurt, baked a cake from scratch, smoked your own nuts, dried meat for jerky etc...) Food handling and preparation is a dying/dead art.
One reason raw milk was changed into cheese, yogurt, and other fermented products was to PRESERVE the milk and keep it from carrying bacteria/poisoning...NOT so that the farmers had a new refreshing treat.
As I said earlier (but some kind of way that was skipped over) sure you can drink raw milk, if you raise the cow. Would you be willing to drink raw milk produced by ANYONE who say they can do it? The risks are VERY high as ANY organic food producer will tell you. Do that on a large scale (millions of people) and you are asking for an outbreak (thats why its not done..not because of some conspiracy)
Food processing is not evil...its ancient, been around for thousands of years.
The question is...how much of it is appropriate.
Personally, I am willing to invest in the quality of my life and make foods from scratch as many bodybuilders and food technologist do.
I would hate to think this is an argument. I like to have information presented to me because perhaps someone else is correct and I am not aware of the total information.
However, we continue to say that the information presented here is FACT...yet we still have not shown peer reviewed scientific information to support our statements. Statements made by farmers, fitness experts, or just people who like a healthy life are not fact...they are opinion however in this thread we are stating them as fact.
There is no need for me to contact various Organic Food organisations because they will readily agree that the main reason we process perishable items like milk is due to the handling the consumer will give them...ie..during shipping, in the home etc...The Organic Dairy will also assure you that because they themselves have low bacterial counts it has NO bearing on what happens on a large scale and mishandling by consumers. Without pasteurisation the bacteria load is higher therefore milk will only last a short period of time (a couple days).
Organic milk producers undergo inspection by...uh...Food Technologist to ensure they are using proper handling procedures. Their milk is still examined for what is called microbial load or any detection of a range of bacteria that may indicate fecal contamination. So maybe I do have a clue as to what I am talking about?
My background is in food technology & nutrition. I have worked with food in industry for MANY years. This includes several years as a quality control microbiolgist. Protein foods such as milk and eggs are hosts for bacteria. They require care for todays consumer who is not aware how to handle or prepare food. (it also prevents law suits LOL). In fact I would use milk, meats, eggs to induce bacteria growth. (when was the last time you made homemade ice cream, cheese,yogurt, baked a cake from scratch, smoked your own nuts, dried meat for jerky etc...) Food handling and preparation is a dying/dead art.
One reason raw milk was changed into cheese, yogurt, and other fermented products was to PRESERVE the milk and keep it from carrying bacteria/poisoning...NOT so that the farmers had a new refreshing treat.
As I said earlier (but some kind of way that was skipped over) sure you can drink raw milk, if you raise the cow. Would you be willing to drink raw milk produced by ANYONE who say they can do it? The risks are VERY high as ANY organic food producer will tell you. Do that on a large scale (millions of people) and you are asking for an outbreak (thats why its not done..not because of some conspiracy)
Food processing is not evil...its ancient, been around for thousands of years.
The question is...how much of it is appropriate.
Personally, I am willing to invest in the quality of my life and make foods from scratch as many bodybuilders and food technologist do.
BitsOBrawn
Banned
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2003
- Messages
- 99
RicPhoenix said:Well,
I would hate to think this is an argument. I like to have information presented to me because perhaps someone else is correct and I am not aware of the total information.
However, we continue to say that the information presented here is FACT...yet we still have not shown peer reviewed scientific information to support our statements. Statements made by farmers, fitness experts, or just people who like a healthy life are not fact...they are opinion however in this thread we are stating them as fact.
There is no need for me to contact various Organic Food organisations because they will readily agree that the main reason we process perishable items like milk is due to the handling the consumer will give them...ie..during shipping, in the home etc...The Organic Dairy will also assure you that because they themselves have low bacterial counts it has NO bearing on what happens on a large scale and mishandling by consumers. Without pasteurisation the bacteria load is higher therefore milk will only last a short period of time (a couple days).
Organic milk producers undergo inspection by...uh...Food Technologist to ensure they are using proper handling procedures. Their milk is still examined for what is called microbial load or any detection of a range of bacteria that may indicate fecal contamination. So maybe I do have a clue as to what I am talking about?
My background is in food technology & nutrition. I have worked with food in industry for MANY years. This includes several years as a quality control microbiolgist. Protein foods such as milk and eggs are hosts for bacteria. They require care for todays consumer who is not aware how to handle or prepare food. (it also prevents law suits LOL). In fact I would use milk, meats, eggs to induce bacteria growth. (when was the last time you made homemade ice cream, cheese,yogurt, baked a cake from scratch, smoked your own nuts, dried meat for jerky etc...) Food handling and preparation is a dying/dead art.
One reason raw milk was changed into cheese, yogurt, and other fermented products was to PRESERVE the milk and keep it from carrying bacteria/poisoning...NOT so that the farmers had a new refreshing treat.
As I said earlier (but some kind of way that was skipped over) sure you can drink raw milk, if you raise the cow. Would you be willing to drink raw milk produced by ANYONE who say they can do it? The risks are VERY high as ANY organic food producer will tell you. Do that on a large scale (millions of people) and you are asking for an outbreak (thats why its not done..not because of some conspiracy)
Food processing is not evil...its ancient, been around for thousands of years.
The question is...how much of it is appropriate.
Personally, I am willing to invest in the quality of my life and make foods from scratch as many bodybuilders and food technologist do.
Organic has nothning to do with raw pasture based farming and dairying. All organic usually means is the cows are not given any hormones or antibiotics or their feed is organic or a combination of both.
Bro did you even see my link? Check out www.organicpastures.com. Mark McAffee is doing what you say cannot be done. LOL He's shipping raw milk all over the country and selling it (other raw dairy products) all over California commercially. Just because you work in the food industry doesn't mean anything. The food industry is full of corruption and corporate greed just like anything else. Raising a cow on your own has nothing to do with the quality of milk. Things like whether or not a cow is grass fed or grain fed is more important. Mark's bacterial count in his milk straight from the cow is very very low compared to milk used for pasteurization. Peer reviewed journals will never do raw milk justice for many reasons. The HEALTH OF THE COW IS WHAT MATTERS MOST! Mastitis, Lameness, etc. is caused by confinement and grain is bad for dairy cows if you want quality milk. Pasture fed cows produce very healthy milk. First, the health and medical establishment is against raw milk for the most part because of fear and ignorance. Much like steroids. Second, there is very little research done on raw milk because the food industry controls everything. Do you realize how powerful the dairy industry is in this country? You think they give two shits about the small scale farmer? Hell now. They don't give a shit about the quality of our food or the animals that produce it.
As far as E Coli O157:H7 goes it usually finds its way into milk through fecal contamination. Do you know how that strand of Ecoli usually finds it's way into fecal contamination? Confinement dairying. Confinement dairying produces absolutely horrid conditions in the cow and as a result the milk. These holstein cows that produce much of America's milk are pathetically and disgustingly unhealthy. Plus their milk is of such poor quality. The other two pathogens salmonella and campylobacter have caused more gastrointestinal illness and death in ground beef and even pasteurized juice than raw milk. RciPhoenix you also have to remember that most of the bacteria found in milk, that is clean, carefully produced raw milk are beneficial and actually multiply due to regular lactic acid fermentation. Pathogens and othe bacteria are very different. Like I said before Mark Macaffee of organicpastures.com produces raw milk and sells all over the country and he has NEVER FOUND a single pathogenic bacteria in his milk. He also posts his bacterial count daily on batches of raw milk. Again this is a healthy debate not an argument. I can do some more research and post some referrences but that takes time as the information is usually old and hard to find. Later!
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BitsOBrawn: "Just because you work in the food industry doesn't mean anything. The food industry is full of corruption and corporate greed just like anything else. Raising a cow on your own has nothing to do with the quality of milk. Things like whether or not a cow is grass fed or grain fed is more important. Mark's bacterial count in his milk straight from the cow is very very low compared to milk used for pasteurization. Peer reviewed journals will never do raw milk justice for many reasons."
A bit personal, insulting/disrespectful dont you think? What do you base your comments upon?
If you look in my first post I point out the issue with mastistis etc...and surely I understand what organic food is...but thanks for explaining it to me as a review.
I also state in my previous post that sure 1 person...(Mark) may be able to produce raw milk...but now you need to supply 300 million people or more. This is a tragedy waiting to happen. Unless we re-educate all consumers on how to handle milk.
I also do not state that it cannot be done. Raw milk has been produced for a very long time...in fact its all raw until it gets to the dairy factories LOL.
I do however state that if you choose to sell raw milk commercially it will have a decreased shelf life and increased incidents of spoilage or food poisoning due to poor consumer education. So on a small scale sure it can be done because those who buy it are usually aware of how to handle rapidly bio-degrading foods.
From what I have presented above you should see that the information presented has little to do with your mate...Mark...and more to do with a mis-educated public on how to handle food. Mark may produce very good milk...however during its transport...if done on a large scale, for 300 million people who wont know how to handle it...the risk becomes unacceptable.
Finally, I would suspect that in some extreme cases there are scandles in food science and research however, the dairy and food technologist that I studied and worked with in the labs did not seem to be concerned with the undeground ring of silence and conspiracy that we seem to believe is out there. (perhaps they were good actors and they were really under a blackmail threat? )
It seems this discussion is leaving the realm of logic/rational (ie...no peer reviewed materials) and moving into the "personal" so as a good scientist is taught to do ; I will leave you to it mate.
A bit personal, insulting/disrespectful dont you think? What do you base your comments upon?
If you look in my first post I point out the issue with mastistis etc...and surely I understand what organic food is...but thanks for explaining it to me as a review.
I also state in my previous post that sure 1 person...(Mark) may be able to produce raw milk...but now you need to supply 300 million people or more. This is a tragedy waiting to happen. Unless we re-educate all consumers on how to handle milk.
I also do not state that it cannot be done. Raw milk has been produced for a very long time...in fact its all raw until it gets to the dairy factories LOL.
I do however state that if you choose to sell raw milk commercially it will have a decreased shelf life and increased incidents of spoilage or food poisoning due to poor consumer education. So on a small scale sure it can be done because those who buy it are usually aware of how to handle rapidly bio-degrading foods.
From what I have presented above you should see that the information presented has little to do with your mate...Mark...and more to do with a mis-educated public on how to handle food. Mark may produce very good milk...however during its transport...if done on a large scale, for 300 million people who wont know how to handle it...the risk becomes unacceptable.
Finally, I would suspect that in some extreme cases there are scandles in food science and research however, the dairy and food technologist that I studied and worked with in the labs did not seem to be concerned with the undeground ring of silence and conspiracy that we seem to believe is out there. (perhaps they were good actors and they were really under a blackmail threat?
)It seems this discussion is leaving the realm of logic/rational (ie...no peer reviewed materials) and moving into the "personal" so as a good scientist is taught to do ; I will leave you to it mate.
- Joined
- May 18, 2003
- Messages
- 374
Axis of Evil is here on ProMuscle in the Raw Milk discussion
Yes you guys are too mean to me and "I'm going home". I bet its those evil "supplements"
And FRKNHuge...everytime I log on to the forum your featured member photo scares me. Its those glow in the dark eyes
I think if you start up on the colostrum it will soon be banned.
So do you have a more friendly/nice photo for display?
Yes you guys are too mean to me and "I'm going home". I bet its those evil "supplements"
And FRKNHuge...everytime I log on to the forum your featured member photo scares me. Its those glow in the dark eyes
I think if you start up on the colostrum it will soon be banned.
So do you have a more friendly/nice photo for display?
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2003
- Messages
- 965
FRKNHUGE said:
Oh, okay. I don't know what it tastes like. I have never tried it or even seen it, I don't think. Personally, and this is just me, even if raw milk could be delivered to my house I wouldn't drink it. I think that pasteurization has it's issues and problems but I still think that milk, in and of itself, is not to be ingested by humans.
Not stirring the pot, just giving my personal opinion.
Skip
- Joined
- May 18, 2003
- Messages
- 374
Darn, I fell for your trick.
You know...hmm I know a roo named Skip
You know...hmm I know a roo named Skip
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2004
- Messages
- 66
BitsOBrawn said:
Do you know how many people suffered from Alzheimer's and Parkinson's in the early 1900s? Not too many. Is it the dreaded milk
Again cause and effect.
I'm with Ric on this. If you believe in something, that's cool. But remember, milk didn't cause Hitler's rise to power even though pasteurization was adopted when he was born.
The reason that heart disease has skyrocketed is two-fold:
1. Obesity is acceptable in our society. We consider that 5'4 250lb guy that never worked out since he played DE in high school American football to be normal now. It may, in fact, be normal but it's not good for our health.
2. Heart Disease is 5x more prevalent after age 45 in men and 55 in women. Unfortunately at the turn of the century, the life expectancy was 47. Not 74 like today. Similarly, Parkinson's Disease or Alzheimer's are diseases that mainly affect the elderly. The rates have also skyrocketed just because we keep people alive longer and unhealthy people (see #1) alive longer.
in my opinion
I think the world has so many problems today due to the poor quality of food. Thats the only reason why the population of this planet has balooned the way it has. I believe we are at 6 billion? I remember my biology teacher in highschool saying that we have more food than ever; however, it doesnt mean it is good quality food.
I think corn is one of the worst things in our diet as well. The use of corn in our food has increased 4000% since 1972!!!! Thats sick! One of the worst things about corn is as it slowly molds it then causes massive estrogen in the body. Thats bad on the hormonal systems of all humans from the research i have done. Although i still think it all falls back onto an individuals liver and what it can process and filter out. (Free of the non-calcified gallstones )
I think the world has so many problems today due to the poor quality of food. Thats the only reason why the population of this planet has balooned the way it has. I believe we are at 6 billion? I remember my biology teacher in highschool saying that we have more food than ever; however, it doesnt mean it is good quality food.
I think corn is one of the worst things in our diet as well. The use of corn in our food has increased 4000% since 1972!!!! Thats sick! One of the worst things about corn is as it slowly molds it then causes massive estrogen in the body. Thats bad on the hormonal systems of all humans from the research i have done. Although i still think it all falls back onto an individuals liver and what it can process and filter out. (Free of the non-calcified gallstones
)
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It makes for a very cheap sweetener.mark86 said:
My wife brought home these Fruit "Naturals" cups under the assumption there was no sugar (artificial) in them. Low and behold, second ingredient listed is high fructose corn syrup. I guess that's considered "natural"
Well it has been a week since I stopped drinking milk. I have to admit that this bulk cycle has been almost effortless. Usually I have to force almost every meal down because I feel so bloated and full.
This time I am consuming the same number of calories and actually and finding myself HUNGRY!
I love it since usually I really dred all the eating of a bulk cycle as I will go week after week and am NOT hungry a single day.
I also find that I don't have the distended stomach I usually have during a bulk even though I really upped my calories.
Thanks for the suggestions Skip, as always you are a GREAT source of info.
This time I am consuming the same number of calories and actually and finding myself HUNGRY!
I love it since usually I really dred all the eating of a bulk cycle as I will go week after week and am NOT hungry a single day.
I also find that I don't have the distended stomach I usually have during a bulk even though I really upped my calories.
Thanks for the suggestions Skip, as always you are a GREAT source of info.
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2003
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- 965
I am glad to hear that things went the way they have this last week. I expected this outcome but I am really glad that someone took the opportunity to try this out especially during this thread going back and forth all week. It should bump me out of the "idiot" category but probably only slightly. lol
Skip
Skip
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