relevancy of gram totals in AAS

[devenidas]

Agreed. Total grams is a virtually irrelevant number and I usually skip over posts when people only mention that because it really tells us nothing. 500mg of tren is a lot more toxic than 1g of test. It’s a silly figure.

Nobody knows more about Tren's toxicity then my matey boy NH ,that I am dead sure of LOL

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[LATS]

I agree with your post. The body does reach homeostasis with high doses. I did 4 geeks a week for years and my liver values were only slightly elevated.
This dose was normal for my body.
I this year dropped down to 350mg and now 1 gram is all I can handle.
It’s like an alcoholic able to drink a lot of alcohol and not get drunk. Someone who doesn’t drink gets drunk fast.

I have told this to numerous. " newbies".. If you start with high dosages you get high side effect.. And where do you go from there ? Even higher? That's why I cringe when I see many starting at a gram of test.. Escalate slowly.. Let the body adapt.. Give it time for the adaptation.. The sides many times are much less if you give the body baby steps..

 

[Matsuo Munefusa]

Great thread Asteelz!!!

I only have my own experience to go by but it echoes what you are saying. I ran 400mg tren + 300mg test for a few months and felt like absolute garbage. E2 was going crazy, mood was up and down, libido was trashed.

Now I am running 600mg primo + 140mg test (so an equivalent amount of AAS per mg/week) and feel absolutely GREAT. It should be a no-brainer but some of us take a while longer to learn that the really toxic drugs are better left for those pushing the edge and putting it all on the line competing.

 

[ALLEX]

Compare 1g of primo with 1g of metribolone.

Fun, huh?

 

[asteelz]

some good thoughts AZ!!! lol

quick notes from my head...

tren. i look at tren as 4x test... meaning for every 100mg tren we see 400mg test.

esters. i often account for ester wieghts. with eq in particular. i look at eq dose as half a dball dose. as its basically that minus the half ester weight...

then we get into metabolic stress...

how do we combat metabolic stress????
my favorite word!!! lol

The weight of the ester is a commonly overlooked variable, good point in bringing this up. The metabolic variable is so complex, especially in guys like us who gain and lose a lot in short periods of time. Talk about disallowing the body to reach any normalcy..

Matsuo your quite welcome bro. The thread was intended for guys to look at aas dose exactly like you just mentioned. 700mg being unequal cycle to cycle as the variable of compound choices change.

 

[11111]

I have told this to numerous. " newbies".. If you start with high dosages you get high side effect.. And where do you go from there ? Even higher? That's why I cringe when I see many starting at a gram of test.. Escalate slowly.. Let the body adapt.. Give it time for the adaptation.. The sides many times are much less if you give the body baby steps..

Kind of a basic question here, but this thread had me thinking about it..

Lats, awhile back Mike Arnold wrote an article that kind of go into what I'm asking you now:

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...irst-cycle-stance-go-all-out-take-slow-4.html

Also:
AAS use: Diving right in or taking it slow? Part 1 | IronMag Bodybuilding Blog

I know Mike isn't recommending the above approach to anyone directly, but found the above articles interesting and a little different way of looking at this stuff.

Many guys say that "you only get one first cycle" and to not "waste it" by being too conservative.

However, there is the other school of thought that many guys here have talked about over the years where, if you start super high early on, where do you go from there? Even Higher doses?? Obviously not a very good thing..

Lats (and everybody else), would like to get your take on this in regards to how a clean guy would ideally start out in maximizing progress while staying at a reasonable (and hopefully "reasonably safe") dose..

Also, do you guys feel that the first time you use aas is your best "cycle" because of the "virgin receptors" theory or is it more a matter of you being at your smallest before starting aas, and the bigger you get the harder it becomes to gain even more muscle mass?

Or do you think it is a bit of both?

 

[asteelz]

Kind of a basic question here, but this thread had me thinking about it..

Lats, awhile back Mike Arnold wrote an article that kind of go into what I'm asking you now:

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...irst-cycle-stance-go-all-out-take-slow-4.html

Also:
AAS use: Diving right in or taking it slow? Part 1 | IronMag Bodybuilding Blog

I know Mike isn't recommending the above approach to anyone directly, but found the above articles interesting and a little different way of looking at this stuff.

Many guys say that "you only get one first cycle" and to not "waste it" by being too conservative.

However, there is the other school of thought that many guys here have talked about over the years where, if you start super high early on, where do you go from there? Even Higher doses?? Obviously not a very good thing..

Lats (and everybody else), would like to get your take on this in regards to how a clean guy would ideally start out in maximizing progress while staying at a reasonable (and hopefully "reasonably safe") dose..

Also, do you guys feel that the first time you use aas is your best "cycle" because of the "virgin receptors" theory or is it more a matter of you being at your smallest before starting aas, and the bigger you get the harder it becomes to gain even more muscle mass?

Or do you think it is a bit of both?

I've had good luck with my newbie clients using an approach like this. Starting them on only test and adding compounds in as the cycle progresses, taking advantage of each period as a time to make more muscle gains by pushing with both food and protein..

1-8 test e/c 400 mg
6-12 eq or primo 400
12-16 eq or primo 600
8-16 test e/c 500mg
8-16 oral, choice depends on where they are at. 30-50mg daily

And if they are still Gaining well and labs look good/ no negative sides
16-24
Test prop 500
Masteron 350
Tren ace 350

This has shown great success by taking advantage of each 8 week period as a time to make rapid gains with new compounds increasing in strength as the cycle progresses.

 

[11111]

I've had good luck with my newbie clients using an approach like this. Starting them on only test and adding compounds in as the cycle progresses, taking advantage of each period as a time to make more muscle gains by pushing with both food and protein..

1-8 test e/c 400 mg
6-12 eq or primo 400
12-16 eq or primo 600
8-16 test e/c 500mg
8-16 oral, choice depends on where they are at. 30-50mg daily

And if they are still Gaining well and labs look good/ no negative sides
16-24
Test prop 500
Masteron 350
Tren ace 350

This has shown great success by taking advantage of each 8 week period as a time to make rapid gains with new compounds increasing in strength as the cycle progresses.

Great, thanks asteelz... That's a great idea, to look at it from more of a "micro" perspective and gradually add compounds/higher doses as you progress over a shorter period of time. That way you are maximizing your progress while still being reasonable with your doses...

 

[devenidas]

I agree with your post. The body does reach homeostasis with high doses. I did 4 geeks a week for years and my liver values were only slightly elevated.
This dose was normal for my body.
I this year dropped down to 350mg and now 1 gram is all I can handle.
It’s like an alcoholic able to drink a lot of alcohol and not get drunk. Someone who doesn’t drink gets drunk fast.

perfect analogy JJ. The more we expose our bodies to it get accustomed to. Got to lower it down before going up again.

 

[devenidas]

on a side note i am going back to sub q method after doing IM for a few months. I did i like sub q best for test as i loved it before.

but this time (For the first timer doing daily shots)

below from my Journal ...

Dropping test back to sub q method (test cyp/ 20 units/ 50 mg a daily so works out 350 mg test per week)


Made 10 backloaded pins today

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[LK3]

The weight of the ester is a commonly overlooked variable, good point in bringing this up. The metabolic variable is so complex, especially in guys like us who gain and lose a lot in short periods of time. Talk about disallowing the body to reach any normalcy..

Matsuo your quite welcome bro. The thread was intended for guys to look at aas dose exactly like you just mentioned. 700mg being unequal cycle to cycle as the variable of compound choices change.

the real key is trying to create a new set point, that way you dont have ups n downs so much.

how you cycle training and drugs together is how to do that effectively

cns fuction super key to think

i know i mention to you before but on progressive cycle try start with test then when gains slow add some sort of dht ( mast/wini etc ) then when happens again add a progestrone like compound ( nan/drol etc ).

that said i think when you run longer like that it can be harder to do the set point thing.

in general the longer idea might be better for more advanced and for beginner try doing short blast cruise sorta thing... i think, maybe?