Reps vs Poundage

[Conan21]

HF79

Yes option 2 provides better stimulation. The goal of bodybuilding is protein break down of the targeted muscle.

Some people who have extremely blessed genetics don't really have to pay attention to this as much. They grow well just lifting weights. But someone who wants to try to improve a body part or someone with a lacking body part needs to pay attention to this.


Most people think that if they have lagging muscle, they should train it with heavier weights to make it get stronger/grow/adapt, what have you.

But in reality, lets say your training bench and you try to go heavy, even with what you perceive to be good form. If your delts and triceps have low excitation thresh holds your chest has high excitation thresholds your triceps and delts are going to take on most of the work and the chest is acting as secondary support muscle.

So obviously your goal would be to make the chest the prime mover of the exercise in order for it to receive full overload. So you would bring the bar closer to the neck with elbows wide and pay more attention to Internal Ques (what your muscle is experiencing) instead of external ques (weight on the bar and reps). putting your feet up on the bench isn't a bad idea either since this trasnfers the kinetic chain from hip to shoulder instead of feet to hip.

Of course you want to overload the muscle and get stronger with time but that is either going to happen or not happen. Lets not forget that volume is a form of overload just as weight is.You need to be Qualitative not quantitative. Protein degradation of the targetted muscle is what is most important for bodybuilding.

 

[alan1973]

I bet you were also eating to stay within a weight class and not trying to be as big or heavy as you can. That is where I see many falling into this.
Heavy is something based on and individuals strength. Your not talking about heavy when talking about how to do an exercise, that falls under form. At least that's how I look at it.

I struggled hard to stay in the 198lb class.
and to push the point, the base I was at during that time had annual strongman competitions and the one year I decided to try it, the BBers couldn't keep up with me. I won by a landslide. (My cardio was pretty good then too).
on a side note, I know a few BBers that used to powerlift, but when they retired (usually due to injury) they became serious BBers.

 

[allbeef]

Great discussion

Anybody who says there is one right way is full of himself. Intuition is a strong part of it and over time you begin to understand your body. There are no pansys who show up in the gym every day even if they lift light. Or there may be pansys at the gym, but it isn't because they are lifting light. You have to mix it up as someone said. You cannot lift consistently heavy for 8 months and not start to suffer some issues. The other thing is that it has to be rewarding and it can't be so serious that it's all about maximal performance for months and months. You will burn out and your returns will diminish. For most of us who never will compete it's therapy and a lifestyle. I will say that I have personaly never followed strict form and have always used enough weight to become pretty sloppy on those last few reps. I can also tell you that i believe that along with juicing in my 40's this has given me more mass for my age then anyone my age I have seen lately at the gym.

One of the things I did to get around the issue conan so rightfully points out about taxing the pec muscle properly, is about four years ago ( mainly because i was working out by myself ) I went to hammer machines for my chest and stopped benching. I use three different machines which each hit the chest from a different movement. It is interesting to note that with each machine my strength differs ( or not so interesting if you understand the differences in the machines. ) Well I benched for the first time in four years this week and I did 405 twice. It was awkward not having benched in so long but it was all me minus some help getting it off the rack. I feel that the hammer machines have provided a very strong foundation to operate off of. I also think when you get to an age where you are more prone to injury and yet you still want to lift heavy, you may have to move to machines. Particularly if you don't have a workout partner.

Allbeef

 

[LATS]

the problem with volume is it can lead to overtraining just by its very nature.. serge nubret used massive amounts of volume to obtain his physique.. the question is.. was it needed?.. could less have been performed with the same results.. all of it is a guessing game.. high volume will lead to elevated cortisol ect.. there is no way around it.. serge (over at ironage.us) responded to a thread and addressed training questions.. nubret at one time actually had a powerlifting (bench press) record in france (well over 400pounds)..he was a strong guy.. so benching 225 for 10 sets of 15 reps with 1 minute rest is impressive.. also a great feat of strength.. but to try a routine such as his with out building a very good base of strength is not going to be productive..
conan brings up some good points.. many are addressed by trainer scott abel.. abel always recommends using cues to train a muscle not poundage.. abel makes some very valid points.. some of which have not panned out from all my years of being a gym owner, competitor ect..
i have seen many "feelers" train.. they pay attention to how the muscle "feels".. they pay attention to the "pump" ect ect.. most..not all.. but most stay the same size years after year .. but the kid who comes in and trys to lift more time after time using "decent" form.. not text book.. but decent.. makes the most gains.. volume is a way to overload a muscle.. that is true.. but, why use volume to overload when there are more effective ways to do it while lessening the chance of overtraining??..
OVERLOAD AND FREQUENCY.. that has worked almost everytime.. it is what dc is based on.. it is what phil bases his training on.. get in.. get out.. eat.. grow.. do it again.. i have made it complicated in the past.. read everything poliquin, bompa, abel, chek.. you name it.. had to say.. all seemed great in writing.. just did not pan out in real world sessions..
my cousin was a strength coach for a major eastern university.. (now he is a recruiter for a university in the mid west) he is a very well built guy.. natural.. and very well versed.. has a phd ect.. after long hard times of studying phys and using what he studied in the gym.. he came up with a few conclusions.. 1) it all works..2) do the least amount of work possible to bring about adaptation 3) dont overtrain.. 4) muscle can be trained very often.. 5)calories..6) no need to train some bodyparts.. (ie arms) 7) isolation movements are a waste of time..
he trains 5 days a week.. his workouts last 30 minutes to 45.. upper body- lower body rotation .. dips, bench, standing press, chins db rows make up the most used movements.. squats, deads, leg press, calf raise make up the lower body.. some days 3-4 sets of most movements.. some days 2-3 work sets.. depends on how he feels.. no arm work..some weeks upper body gets three workouts, next week two.. he does not pay attention to soreness and does not "strive" for a pump.. and yes he look very good for 44 years old and natural..
so what i am saying is.. many make it complicated.. when it is not.. we have all been guilty of it.. consistancy is key.. avoiding over training is a must.. once in a overtrained state.. your workouts will mean nothing.. like pissing on a forest fire.. no results..
just remember the famous words of casey viator.. he was giving a seminar when a young man asked a question about what the best workout was.. casey paused for second and replied "look.. none of us know what the fuck we are doing.. just train"..

 

[street]

In my own experience the rep range has been less important than learning to grind out a rep or two at the point i would normally end a set these reps are slow and tough and rely pretty much on will power :and then giving the muscle adequate recovery.

 

[Conan21]

Lats

In no way am I saying lower volume routines don't work. How can one say they don't when looking at some of the success guys get from it?

But in response to your post, Who is to say that the serge nubret routine is appropriate for a beginner with no strength? Nothing is one size fits all. I'm sure if Serge Nubret was training a beginner or Scot Abell was training a beginner it would be extremely scaled down to compensate for the persons low work capacity and lower strength levels.

Also, I haven't seen any evidence to show that volume necessarily "over trains" or causes "cortisol buildup". Lower volume with large amounts of Straining can cause these burn out effects just as easily, not to mention injury if a person starts to get carried away.

Yes, Muscles can be trained very frequently, every day actually but not in a Single Factor Program. How many bodybuilders actually train in a Dual Factor fashion? Not many. So over emphasizing frequency will over train most people just as easily as well.

I guess you make valid points and perhaps we are both correct.

Two things I would like to hear you response to is:

How would you train a power lifter who wished to gain strength but limit size as much as possible? And why?

And

How would you train a previous power lifter who came to you wishing to take up bodybuilding? Lets say a180 lb kid who benches 410 lbs and extremely powerful in all lifts.
Would focusing on making this 180 lb guy even stronger with low volume be the best route, or would it be wise to work on his strength endurance and use more mechanical work with the use of volume and repeated effort???

I just think it seems that very few in the Bodybuilding Community take into consideration the Nervous System and how it interacts with Muscle fibers. Many of the Power lifting organizations today base everything on Nervous System phenomenon but almost all bodybuilders neglect it.

 

[alan1973]

Anybody who says there is one right way is full of himself. Intuition is a strong part of it and over time you begin to understand your body. There are no pansys who show up in the gym every day even if they lift light. Or there may be pansys at the gym, but it isn't because they are lifting light. You have to mix it up as someone said. You cannot lift consistently heavy for 8 months and not start to suffer some issues. The other thing is that it has to be rewarding and it can't be so serious that it's all about maximal performance for months and months. You will burn out and your returns will diminish. For most of us who never will compete it's therapy and a lifestyle. I will say that I have personaly never followed strict form and have always used enough weight to become pretty sloppy on those last few reps. I can also tell you that i believe that along with juicing in my 40's this has given me more mass for my age then anyone my age I have seen lately at the gym.

One of the things I did to get around the issue conan so rightfully points out about taxing the pec muscle properly, is about four years ago ( mainly because i was working out by myself ) I went to hammer machines for my chest and stopped benching. I use three different machines which each hit the chest from a different movement. It is interesting to note that with each machine my strength differs ( or not so interesting if you understand the differences in the machines. ) Well I benched for the first time in four years this week and I did 405 twice. It was awkward not having benched in so long but it was all me minus some help getting it off the rack. I feel that the hammer machines have provided a very strong foundation to operate off of. I also think when you get to an age where you are more prone to injury and yet you still want to lift heavy, you may have to move to machines. Particularly if you don't have a workout partner.

Allbeef

100% correct!! I always use machines when I feel I have been pushing it too much or feel like I am getting burned out.
too many younger guys talk trash about machines.....you are a prime example of what works!

 

[alan1973]

How would you train a previous power lifter who came to you wishing to take up bodybuilding? Lets say a180 lb kid who benches 410 lbs and extremely powerful in all lifts.
Would focusing on making this 180 lb guy even stronger with low volume be the best route, or would it be wise to work on his strength endurance and use more mechanical work with the use of volume and repeated effort???

I just think it seems that very few in the Bodybuilding Community take into consideration the Nervous System and how it interacts with Muscle fibers. Many of the Power lifting organizations today base everything on Nervous System phenomenon but almost all bodybuilders neglect it.

When I was powerlifting, I had lots of cardio and limited my diet just to keep under 198at 15-16% BF, but now I lift not as hard, not as frequent. i rest more, I eat MUCH more and use AAS very sparingly and now weigh 235 at 18.5% fat. i am obviously larger than before.

 

[W8killa]

the problem with volume is it can lead to overtraining just by its very nature.. serge nubret used massive amounts of volume to obtain his physique.. the question is.. was it needed?.. could less have been performed with the same results.. all of it is a guessing game.. high volume will lead to elevated cortisol ect.. there is no way around it.. serge (over at ironage.us) responded to a thread and addressed training questions.. nubret at one time actually had a powerlifting (bench press) record in france (well over 400pounds)..he was a strong guy.. so benching 225 for 10 sets of 15 reps with 1 minute rest is impressive.. also a great feat of strength.. but to try a routine such as his with out building a very good base of strength is not going to be productive..
conan brings up some good points.. many are addressed by trainer scott abel.. abel always recommends using cues to train a muscle not poundage.. abel makes some very valid points.. some of which have not panned out from all my years of being a gym owner, competitor ect..
i have seen many "feelers" train.. they pay attention to how the muscle "feels".. they pay attention to the "pump" ect ect.. most..not all.. but most stay the same size years after year .. but the kid who comes in and trys to lift more time after time using "decent" form.. not text book.. but decent.. makes the most gains.. volume is a way to overload a muscle.. that is true.. but, why use volume to overload when there are more effective ways to do it while lessening the chance of overtraining??..
OVERLOAD AND FREQUENCY.. that has worked almost everytime.. it is what dc is based on.. it is what phil bases his training on.. get in.. get out.. eat.. grow.. do it again.. i have made it complicated in the past.. read everything poliquin, bompa, abel, chek.. you name it.. had to say.. all seemed great in writing.. just did not pan out in real world sessions..
my cousin was a strength coach for a major eastern university.. (now he is a recruiter for a university in the mid west) he is a very well built guy.. natural.. and very well versed.. has a phd ect.. after long hard times of studying phys and using what he studied in the gym.. he came up with a few conclusions.. 1) it all works..2) do the least amount of work possible to bring about adaptation 3) dont overtrain.. 4) muscle can be trained very often.. 5)calories..6) no need to train some bodyparts.. (ie arms) 7) isolation movements are a waste of time..
he trains 5 days a week.. his workouts last 30 minutes to 45.. upper body- lower body rotation .. dips, bench, standing press, chins db rows make up the most used movements.. squats, deads, leg press, calf raise make up the lower body.. some days 3-4 sets of most movements.. some days 2-3 work sets.. depends on how he feels.. no arm work..some weeks upper body gets three workouts, next week two.. he does not pay attention to soreness and does not "strive" for a pump.. and yes he look very good for 44 years old and natural..
so what i am saying is.. many make it complicated.. when it is not.. we have all been guilty of it.. consistancy is key.. avoiding over training is a must.. once in a overtrained state.. your workouts will mean nothing.. like pissing on a forest fire.. no results..
just remember the famous words of casey viator.. he was giving a seminar when a young man asked a question about what the best workout was.. casey paused for second and replied "look.. none of us know what the fuck we are doing.. just train"..

Awesome post Lats! Has to be the best one I have read in a long while.
Younger guys need to reread this post about 10X over because he is right! I just wish I would have been told this is the way to train about 6 years ago because I trained wrong for a long time. I started training like this about 6 months ago and made more gains in that time than I did in a few years. Great post.

 

[JohnnyPro]

I like to alternate, one day I will go heavier and do lower reps, the next time I will do higher reps with lighter weights. This method seems to work pretty well. My legs didn't really start to grow until I started doing one set of 50 reps with 135. Then next leg day I would do 8 to 10 reps with heavier weight. I would alternate like this and got good results.

 

[alan1973]

I like to alternate, one day I will go heavier and do lower reps, the next time I will do higher reps with lighter weights. This method seems to work pretty well. My legs didn't really start to grow until I started doing one set of 50 reps with 135. Then next leg day I would do 8 to 10 reps with heavier weight. I would alternate like this and got good results.

I hope everyone takes all these supposed wonder work-outs with a grain of salt.
Everyone reacts a bit different to exercise, diet and AAS.
You have to learn your own body and not let someone else tell you what to do.
but a little experienced advice never hurts to set someone in the right direction.

 

[STEVO 47]

Yes you can't continually lift heavy without overtraining, that's why
you change up ever now and then, use moderate weight at a point
or two and most of all keep your sets and reps at a min.
Bill Kazmeir said it best. Allways leave the gym with a little something
left. Sorry Bill if I miss spelled your name.

 

[LATS]

i see your points conan.. in regards to training a powerlifter.. we know that alot of strength is based on the nervous system and "practiced" lifts.. no doubt.. powerlifting should be just that.. "practicing" the three main lifts and keep support lifts to a minimum.. if one does not want muscular size (in regards to weight classes) you and i both know that one must keep the sets in low tut to limit the chance of hypertrophy but, allow the training of the cns in regards to the lift.. but, there is many variables such as diet ect to keep a guy in a certain weight class. we see in bodybuilding all the time.. one stays in a certain weight class for what seems like forever.. they get their pro card.. no more weight class.. boom .. 20 pounds in a very short time.. did they up the dose?.. quite possibly .. but, the consuming of more calories has much to do with it..
i trained wrestlers when i owned my gyms.. getting ahold of what they eat is crucial.. in order to keep the weight class sometimes it was as simple as having them hold calories to a certain level and no matter how hard they weight trained.. or added weight in various lifts.. the weight held..
but all this is conjecture.. in regards to the powerlifter wanting to be a bodybuilder.. it depends on his previous powerlifting routine.. modifying a "fake" routine is a little tough when i dont know previous training experience.. but, i understand what you are getting at..
, i do agree in the fact that many in the "strength" sports realize that the nervous system in a very large part of the equation.. they.. powerlifters are much smarter than bodybuilders wish to admit in reagrds to planning a routine and the reasons behind it.. most bodybuilders just go in with the idea of "kill the muscle".. that generally does not get one far and fries the system eventually.. abel is a big proponent of this (training the nervous system) in his "structured off season" workouts.. which i am sure you have read..
my biggest concern about high volume is the fact most who are training that way are doing so because they read the mags.. see ronnies and jays routine ect..they train high volume in a very haphazard manner.. no structure.. they then go in and train each set to failure ect and overtrain big time.. high volume does not need to be that to be effective.. but, it needs to be plotted and planned for intensity, rep range ect ect.. many will not do it that way.. which leads to what i was getting at.. that leads to training inconsistent.. burnout ect..
but in regards to lower volume.. i am not a big proponant of going to "failure" all the time.. i think it will lead to diminished gains in the long run.. especially if one is trying to work in more frequency.. we both know that going to failure is not the end all of training theorys.. but, the mags love to preach it..like i have said.. buy the mags.. look at the pictures.. catch up on the gossip.. but, please dont read the training articles.. gotta go for now.. kids are fighting bed time..

 

[Conan21]

Hey Lats

Good reply and I agree with you on alot of things. I’m not trying to disprove anyone here. I just enjoy talking about this stuff and I very much respect your opinion.

powerlifting isn't only about "practicing" lifts although that isn't a false statement. THe Power and Explosiveness is developed
from Maximum Exertions and Dynamic effort speed training. In essence you are teaching your Nervous system to activate Muscle fibers with extremely high levels of Rate Coding and syncronization. They don't gain the size because there isn't enough muscle breakdown. This is what powerlifting and olympic lifting is all about. Most of them actually do Lots of support work. lots of tricep work etc so that they have larger muscles which they can make even stronger. but they do this selectively.

I agree that volume over trains a lot of people because they train in HIT fashion + volume = overtraining.

I am a bit stumped sometimes when I hear guys rave about the low volume routines and how much size they are gaining and not sure what to think. A lot of times when I try these routines my strength starts to go up real fast along with some size but the strength seems to out weigh the size substantially. I end up working up to 335 lbs on rows and 160-170 lbs on straight bar curls and that doesn’t seem necessary for the size that I am. The training starts to become very unenjoyable to me trying to consistantly outdo these numbers. Maybe I try to progress to fast or add too much w8 at once. I can only imagine what kind of weights some of these very huge guys on here use.

I think for sure the ratio between CNS and Skeletal muscle gains probably varies alot from person to person. Some peoples strength gain equals muscle mass in direct correlation while with other people, it varies to different degrees.

One thing that I like to do is train both aspects.

Say for chest

Rotate between flat bench, incline, and decline and build up to max weights like how west side does with the Max Effort Method. Maybe pyramid up to a max set of 5 possibly. Or a 3x3. And try to beat those numbers all the time.

And then maybe go into say a neck press with feet up for say 5 sets of 10-12 possibly--like Scot Abel's Structural training.
And then maybe 2-3 sets of flys and 1-3 sets of pushup or dips.
Paying attention to internal ques obviously but still trying to get stronger. I don’t really pay attention to the sets; I do what I Feel I need. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

And then rotate the above “bodybuilding” exercises every 1-3 weeks as well.
It’s a little bit different each time but that’s a general idea.

I like doing this because you still train for maximum strength with the max effort Method. But also muscle breakdown with the repetition method. IMO they compliment each other nicely.

I think focussing to much on weight or too much on volume is like following the atkins diet where you eat protein and nothing else. Why not try to balance things out a little bit?

 

[Girth]

In this routine Conan, you are combining all rep ranges within the same workout. In prior posts, you stated that you should only focus on one rep range per workout. Such as the case with the ME day, dynamic day, and volume day. Has your thinking changed to be more in line with the multiple exercise/per bodypart/per day? This is kind of against what the old schoolers (Starr) would do.