Revamping my training, how did you know it was time to jump off of the high intensity, train, and go the higher volume route?

[Aikman56]

The title pretty much says it all…

I’m currently completely revamping what I’m doing in preparation for the coming year’s improvement season. I will be increasing both food and training volume. I’ve spent the better part of three decades training Dorian-style… one set to failure with all of the intensifiers that we have come to know and love. And the last decade has pretty much just felt like a holding pattern for me, competing at the same weight, but a little leaner each time.

I would challenge anyone to train or eat or utilize supplementation more consistently than I do. I can say, without any ego, that I am doing all of the things as correctly as I KNOW how to do them. That should have resulted in SOME additional muscular growth at this point. Even with the worst genetics in the world, training one’s balls off should not simply result in a maintenance of the status quo.

I think that I might be one of those people that would benefit from additional volume, so I’m pulling the trigger. Although this is my rebound and I know pretty much everything is going to work right now, I am gradually increasing my volume week over a week and my recovery seems to be just fine.

My question to the group is this… For those of you that trained with higher volumes, or maybe (like myself) became disillusioned with the “high intensity everything to fill your balls to the walls. If you aren’t abusing yourself, you aren’t training“ methodologies and an accompanying lack of progress, when did you make the decision to utilize our volumes? How did you implement this? What markers did you look for to ensure recovery was acceptable and the fatigue was not becoming an issue?

Am I simply becoming a crazy old man that should just accept successfully staving off sarcopenia as the victory?

To that last question, I say if that. I’ve seen too many people in their 40s and 50s make progress. I’ve not made any real progress in a lot of years, and that should not be the case, between the way I eat, and my consistency around doing everything that needs to be done, something should’ve given. The only thing I have it done over the past years is revamp training.

I would love to hear thoughts and discussions on this based on personal experience, what you’ve seen others do, or simply theoretical conversations that you’ve had with yourself.

 

[Simon90]

I have changed my training this year also. Even whilst dieting I have brought up my legs from what they were.

After tearing meniscus in both knees, both mcl, and a hamstring tear, and only training legs for about 3 months of the year this year I was forced to change my ways. But I can honestly say looking back now I'm glad I was forced to because otherwise I'd have continued in my old ways. Injuries suck but it's a wake up call.

Before it was just moving weight from a to b as heavy as possible. Now I focus on perfect form (for me) and really focusing on mind muscle connection.

A lot of unilateral work as well. Which I NEVER did, this was off the back of my physios reccomendation who is very good. And also from following people like luki on here and how he trains his clients. Single leg seated leg curls, single lying leg curls, standing single leg curls etc. Lots of lunging, split squats full range of motion. I had to lighten the loads at first but now I'm back up to working weights that I was using previously with much better form and full control.

I started off doing this just for legs, but it transitioned into all body parts now. I still focus on progressive overload. But the way I'm training and feeling the muscle is different and I definetly put my progress down this last year to these changes. More so than anything else.

I'm also stretching and doing mobility work now at least 5x week which is something I never done before. This is helping me connect better with the intended muscles I find as well

 

[Flocci]

My question to the group is this… For those of you that trained with higher volumes, or maybe (like myself) became disillusioned with the “high intensity everything to fill your balls to the walls. If you aren’t abusing yourself, you aren’t training“ methodologies and an accompanying lack of progress, when did you make the decision to utilize our volumes? How did you implement this? What markers did you look for to ensure recovery was acceptable and the fatigue was not becoming an issue?

i found that starting with a low training volume, adding sets as you see that you are recovering and the sets are still feeling productive, not getting overuse issues or anything like that. Just fuck around and find out but be smart and gradual about it, give your body a few sessions and maybe weeks before you add any volume. Depends how stable the rest of our life is too though in regards to what impacts your recovery. Its hard to give any advice thats set in stone. listen to your body and make changes if your body is telling you its up for more work and back off when your body tells you its had too much. Sorry that i dont have a good answer for you but im just sharing my thoughts here. Any questions are welcome.

 

[traininsane11]

Following this as just in the process of doing the same to hopefully facilitate more progress and minimise the chance of injury!

I don’t really have anything to contribute personally

BUT this is Justin Harris’s take on it when describing his reasoning behind his critical mass programme


This is a high frequency, dual-focused training program where myofibrillar and
sarcoplasmic hypertrophy are both targeted. The body is trained over 3
workouts, which each workout placing its focus on those two aspects of muscle
growth—increasing contractile strength through progressive overload and
increasing non-contractile growth through increased blood flow and nutrient
partitioning. The routine is meant to be performed exactly as listed. Movements
are to be in the order listed, and in the set order listed. There is enough allowed
variation in the “additional movements” and set number/methods to keep the
routine feeling fresh for the duration of the program.
This program can be utilized for an arbitrary length of time. The limiting factor to
progression and results will be one’s ability to continue improving in strength for
the movements being used. Once strength plateaus are reached and progress
begins to stall, it is recommended that a short “de-load” is taken where the user
backs off on the intensity and workload for as long as necessary before restarting
the program with the same core structure, but with different exercises.
Program Focus
The focus of this program is purely on increasing muscular size. There is a strong
sub-focus on increasing the strength of the worked muscle, but only in the
manner that an increase in contractile strength leads to an increase in muscle
size. Each workout places some focus on progressive overload as well as some
focus on sarcoplasmic growth—or “blood volume” training. The way in which this
program tracks progress and looks for growth is as follows:
1. Making a muscle stronger.
This means that the muscles performing the movement are getting
stronger—not that you have become more biomechanically efficient in the
movement. There is a difference between getting stronger in a movement
and making a muscle stronger. Getting stronger in a movement can occur
because of improved mechanical advantage, neurological adaptation,
better supporting equipment, variations in diet, rest time between sets,
and location of the movement in the workout (first exercises vs last
exercise). Getting stronger because of a stronger muscle means that no
outside changes have occurred that would improve your strength in a
movement. The same form is used, the same machine is used, the same
rest period is used, etc. This type of strength increase is MUCH slower and
less obvious than simply getting stronger in a movement. However, it is
MUCH more closely correlated to an increase in muscle size. A stronger
contractile tissue is largely the result of an increase in muscle proteins that
make up the contractile tissue of the muscle.
2. Making a muscle’s sub-components larger.
This doesn’t necessarily mean that we are always focused on setting PRs in
every exercise. There is some aspect to training that is unrelated to
muscular strength but increases the size of a muscle. It is hard to argue
that there isn’t some benefit to non-strength increasing training that
focuses on increasing blood flow to the trained muscle, looks to increase
the “pump” of that muscle, and likely produces as much or more DOMS as
the training that focuses on making a muscle stronger.
3. The structure of the program is this:
All red colored sets are “PR sets” or “myofibrillar sets.” Your primary focus
in these sets is hitting a PR without any change to form, rest time, or any
other variable other than muscular strength. You MUST hit at least one PR
in the “core” movement (squats, bench, deadlifts) every single workout.
You SHOULD hit at least one PR for every single body part. You should TRY
to hit a PR in every red colored set of every workout.
All black colored sets are “hypertrophy sets” or “sarcoplasmic sets.” The
goal in these sets isn’t necessarily to get stronger, but rather to bring blood
flow to the tissues and get as good of a “pump” as possible. Strength
increases in these sets will be happily accepted, but that is not the primary
goal of the sets.
Day-to-Day Focus of the Program
While the general approach to this protocol is progressive overload, there are
multiple adaptations in which a muscle group grows larger. If you were to slice
through the cross-sectional area of a muscle group in half, you would see that the
majority of the “muscle” is not contractile tissue, but instead a conglomerate of
fluid volume, blood vessels, capillary density, and other non-protein components.
While increasing the contractile strength of the associated proteins will indirectly
increase the size of these components as well, there is a more direct approach to
stimulating the growth of the non-contractile muscle components. This is where
the daily workout programming becomes important.
How can we maximize training frequency without the risk of over training and
injury? Clearly there is a point where a muscle can be trained—and trained
relatively intensely—without a physiological level of DOMs. This is the key to
increasing the frequency of training, maximizing the rate of strength increases,
and stimulating the maximum amount of muscle protein synthesis.
How is this approached?
1. The part of training that the “bro-split” gets correct is the need for
increased blood flow to the trained tissues and the delayed onset muscle
soreness associated with high intensity, higher volume training. Training
frequency can be maximized if muscle soreness is minimized—but that
does not also optimize the synthesis of new muscle tissue—it only
maximizes the number of times in which a PR can be attempted. There is
some benefit to the increased volume that comes with training a body part
to the point of noticeable soreness.
2. The part of training that the “bro-split” gets incorrect is that most people, if
they’re training reasonably hard under a reasonably high workload, they’re
probably creating a stimulus for new protein synthesis that is higher than
their recovery and diet can cover. If this were not the case, then for any
given training program, an increase in training volume should create a
correlating increase in muscle growth—but this isn’t the case. This is also
the explanation for why so many top bodybuilders seem to be able to train
with limited intensity while still growing—because most people are training
harder than they can locally (locally as in the short term) cover completely
through diet and rest.

 

[traininsane11]

Following this as just in the process of doing the same to hopefully facilitate more progress and minimise the chance of injury!

I don’t really have anything to contribute personally

BUT this is Justin Harris’s take on it when describing his reasoning behind his critical mass programme


This is a high frequency, dual-focused training program where myofibrillar and
sarcoplasmic hypertrophy are both targeted. The body is trained over 3
workouts, which each workout placing its focus on those two aspects of muscle
growth—increasing contractile strength through progressive overload and
increasing non-contractile growth through increased blood flow and nutrient
partitioning. The routine is meant to be performed exactly as listed. Movements
are to be in the order listed, and in the set order listed. There is enough allowed
variation in the “additional movements” and set number/methods to keep the
routine feeling fresh for the duration of the program.
This program can be utilized for an arbitrary length of time. The limiting factor to
progression and results will be one’s ability to continue improving in strength for
the movements being used. Once strength plateaus are reached and progress
begins to stall, it is recommended that a short “de-load” is taken where the user
backs off on the intensity and workload for as long as necessary before restarting
the program with the same core structure, but with different exercises.
Program Focus
The focus of this program is purely on increasing muscular size. There is a strong
sub-focus on increasing the strength of the worked muscle, but only in the
manner that an increase in contractile strength leads to an increase in muscle
size. Each workout places some focus on progressive overload as well as some
focus on sarcoplasmic growth—or “blood volume” training. The way in which this
program tracks progress and looks for growth is as follows:
1. Making a muscle stronger.
This means that the muscles performing the movement are getting
stronger—not that you have become more biomechanically efficient in the
movement. There is a difference between getting stronger in a movement
and making a muscle stronger. Getting stronger in a movement can occur
because of improved mechanical advantage, neurological adaptation,
better supporting equipment, variations in diet, rest time between sets,
and location of the movement in the workout (first exercises vs last
exercise). Getting stronger because of a stronger muscle means that no
outside changes have occurred that would improve your strength in a
movement. The same form is used, the same machine is used, the same
rest period is used, etc. This type of strength increase is MUCH slower and
less obvious than simply getting stronger in a movement. However, it is
MUCH more closely correlated to an increase in muscle size. A stronger
contractile tissue is largely the result of an increase in muscle proteins that
make up the contractile tissue of the muscle.
2. Making a muscle’s sub-components larger.
This doesn’t necessarily mean that we are always focused on setting PRs in
every exercise. There is some aspect to training that is unrelated to
muscular strength but increases the size of a muscle. It is hard to argue
that there isn’t some benefit to non-strength increasing training that
focuses on increasing blood flow to the trained muscle, looks to increase
the “pump” of that muscle, and likely produces as much or more DOMS as
the training that focuses on making a muscle stronger.
3. The structure of the program is this:
All red colored sets are “PR sets” or “myofibrillar sets.” Your primary focus
in these sets is hitting a PR without any change to form, rest time, or any
other variable other than muscular strength. You MUST hit at least one PR
in the “core” movement (squats, bench, deadlifts) every single workout.
You SHOULD hit at least one PR for every single body part. You should TRY
to hit a PR in every red colored set of every workout.
All black colored sets are “hypertrophy sets” or “sarcoplasmic sets.” The
goal in these sets isn’t necessarily to get stronger, but rather to bring blood
flow to the tissues and get as good of a “pump” as possible. Strength
increases in these sets will be happily accepted, but that is not the primary
goal of the sets.
Day-to-Day Focus of the Program
While the general approach to this protocol is progressive overload, there are
multiple adaptations in which a muscle group grows larger. If you were to slice
through the cross-sectional area of a muscle group in half, you would see that the
majority of the “muscle” is not contractile tissue, but instead a conglomerate of
fluid volume, blood vessels, capillary density, and other non-protein components.
While increasing the contractile strength of the associated proteins will indirectly
increase the size of these components as well, there is a more direct approach to
stimulating the growth of the non-contractile muscle components. This is where
the daily workout programming becomes important.
How can we maximize training frequency without the risk of over training and
injury? Clearly there is a point where a muscle can be trained—and trained
relatively intensely—without a physiological level of DOMs. This is the key to
increasing the frequency of training, maximizing the rate of strength increases,
and stimulating the maximum amount of muscle protein synthesis.
How is this approached?
1. The part of training that the “bro-split” gets correct is the need for
increased blood flow to the trained tissues and the delayed onset muscle
soreness associated with high intensity, higher volume training. Training
frequency can be maximized if muscle soreness is minimized—but that
does not also optimize the synthesis of new muscle tissue—it only
maximizes the number of times in which a PR can be attempted. There is
some benefit to the increased volume that comes with training a body part
to the point of noticeable soreness.
2. The part of training that the “bro-split” gets incorrect is that most people, if
they’re training reasonably hard under a reasonably high workload, they’re
probably creating a stimulus for new protein synthesis that is higher than
their recovery and diet can cover. If this were not the case, then for any
given training program, an increase in training volume should create a
correlating increase in muscle growth—but this isn’t the case. This is also
the explanation for why so many top bodybuilders seem to be able to train
with limited intensity while still growing—because most people are training
harder than they can locally (locally as in the short term) cover completely
through diet and rest.

How do we correct for these issues?
1. Focus some effort of each training session on maximizing the sarcoplasmic
aspects of hypertrophy. This means that some body parts of each training
day will need to be trained to the point of soreness.
2. Focus some effort of each training session on maximizing strength/PR
progression without taxing recovery to the point of those muscle groups
seeing DOMs to any appreciable level.
Types of Muscle Growth
Myofibrillar Hypertrophy
The standard understanding of muscle growth is that the myosin and actin
contractile fibers increase in size and number through the synthesis of new
proteins. This results in an increase in muscular strength and an increase in
muscle size. The idea that this is the only form of muscle growth is a hot topic in
the science of muscle building. The problem with the idea of myofibrillar growth
being the only form of muscle growth is that it does nothing to explain the vast
differences in muscle size between professional bodybuilders and competitive
weightlifters. In addition, anyone who’s ever seen a piece of steak can quickly
spot the difference between a fresh cut of meat and one that has been dried into
beef jerky. If all that remains once a cut of meat is dried out is the actual
contractile proteins of the meat, then what is all that other stuff? Steak is made
of muscle—are we to believe that the only portion of that muscle which can be
influenced through weight training is that small portion that remains as beef
jerky?
Myofibrillar hypertrophy is still the primary focus of this training program.
Regardless of whether there are other forms of hypertrophy, the fact that a
stronger tissue will be a more resilient tissue and will likely amply the ability for
any other types of hypertrophy to occur remains true. Training a muscle under a
heavy load in the rep range and time under tension that appears to stimulate
protein synthesis most effectively will work—new proteins will be synthesized to
the myosin and actin and the result will be a larger, stronger muscle tissue. This is
where our PR focused training comes into play.
Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy
The idea of a non-myofibrillar form of hypertrophy is becoming more accepted in
the science community. If you look at it from a logical standpoint, it seems hard
to wave off the size discrepancy between athletes like Olympic weightlifters—
who are incredibly strong and explosive with that of professional bodybuilders—
who have a greatly reduced strength level but much larger muscle mass as just
normal variance. Something is clearly different—whether the difference in size is
called “muscle” is really just a semantic argument. The cross-sectional area of a
bodybuilder’s muscle is much larger than that of athletes who are much stronger.
You could argue that the non-contractile portion of that cross-sectional area isn’t
technically muscle mass, but if it increases the volume of the muscle and appears
to be influenced by training, then I don’t see why it matters what you call it. It
can be increased through training and it increases the size of the muscle—period.
Training for each Type of Growth
Myofibrillar Training

 

[traininsane11]

How do we correct for these issues?
1. Focus some effort of each training session on maximizing the sarcoplasmic
aspects of hypertrophy. This means that some body parts of each training
day will need to be trained to the point of soreness.
2. Focus some effort of each training session on maximizing strength/PR
progression without taxing recovery to the point of those muscle groups
seeing DOMs to any appreciable level.
Types of Muscle Growth
Myofibrillar Hypertrophy
The standard understanding of muscle growth is that the myosin and actin
contractile fibers increase in size and number through the synthesis of new
proteins. This results in an increase in muscular strength and an increase in
muscle size. The idea that this is the only form of muscle growth is a hot topic in
the science of muscle building. The problem with the idea of myofibrillar growth
being the only form of muscle growth is that it does nothing to explain the vast
differences in muscle size between professional bodybuilders and competitive
weightlifters. In addition, anyone who’s ever seen a piece of steak can quickly
spot the difference between a fresh cut of meat and one that has been dried into
beef jerky. If all that remains once a cut of meat is dried out is the actual
contractile proteins of the meat, then what is all that other stuff? Steak is made
of muscle—are we to believe that the only portion of that muscle which can be
influenced through weight training is that small portion that remains as beef
jerky?
Myofibrillar hypertrophy is still the primary focus of this training program.
Regardless of whether there are other forms of hypertrophy, the fact that a
stronger tissue will be a more resilient tissue and will likely amply the ability for
any other types of hypertrophy to occur remains true. Training a muscle under a
heavy load in the rep range and time under tension that appears to stimulate
protein synthesis most effectively will work—new proteins will be synthesized to
the myosin and actin and the result will be a larger, stronger muscle tissue. This is
where our PR focused training comes into play.
Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy
The idea of a non-myofibrillar form of hypertrophy is becoming more accepted in
the science community. If you look at it from a logical standpoint, it seems hard
to wave off the size discrepancy between athletes like Olympic weightlifters—
who are incredibly strong and explosive with that of professional bodybuilders—
who have a greatly reduced strength level but much larger muscle mass as just
normal variance. Something is clearly different—whether the difference in size is
called “muscle” is really just a semantic argument. The cross-sectional area of a
bodybuilder’s muscle is much larger than that of athletes who are much stronger.
You could argue that the non-contractile portion of that cross-sectional area isn’t
technically muscle mass, but if it increases the volume of the muscle and appears
to be influenced by training, then I don’t see why it matters what you call it. It
can be increased through training and it increases the size of the muscle—period.
Training for each Type of Growth
Myofibrillar Training

As I said above—the point of the myofibrillar portion of the training is to create
stronger muscles. This is done by progressive overload and breaking PRs in your
training sessions.
So, what constitutes a PR? At its core, it’s using either more weight for the same
number of reps or doing more reps with the same number of weight, but there is
more to it than that.
This thought process is where people FAIL in progressive overload.
We aren’t simply trying to get stronger in a movement (this isn’t powerlifting).
We’re trying to make a MUSCLE stronger. If you did 10 reps with 405 on squats
last week and 11 reps this week—BUT to get those 11 reps you widened your
stance for better leverage, then you didn’t make the muscle stronger. You simply
found a better mechanical advantage.
Set variations that do not count as a PR
• Changing your form.
 Widening your stance on squats
 Placing the bar lower on your back
 Adjusting the seat to a more mechanically advantageous position on
a machine
• Taking a longer rest period.
 If you get a PR because you rested an extra minute between sets, you
were just more rested—not stronger. Taking 10 minutes between
sets isn’t bodybuilding
• Changing machines.
 A PR set on a machine is for that machine only
• Changing the order of the workout.
 If your previous PR on a back movement was with that movement as
the third exercise, then moving that to the first exercise so the
muscle is fresher is not a PR
Sarcoplasmic Training
The sarcoplasmic training portion of this program should be the most familiar to
readers. It is essentially the standard type of training shown in nearly every
bodybuilder’s training program since the sport began. Although any chance to
increase the weight used in a movement should be taken advantage of, the goal
of this portion of the program isn’t setting PRs. The goal in the sarcoplasmic
training sets is to lift in the manner that current studies show to stimulate the
greatest level of muscle protein synthesis following training.
Considerations for sarcoplasmic Growth
• Lift explosively. The concentric (positive) portion of the rep should be
completed in rapid form. While you may have been taught that “good
form” involves slow controlled reps, I urge you to consider the difference
between “good form” and “form that builds muscle” because studies on
the subject show that an explosive concentric motion is most effective
• Focus on getting a “pump” in the muscle. We’re looking to increase blood
flow to the tissue. We want the tissue to be overwhelmed with blood flow
to the point that its only recourse is to increase the size and density of its
blood vessels and capillary beds. These things take up space in the muscle
tissue and increasing their size and density will add size to the tissue—as
well as increasing the functional capacity of that tissue to bring and remove
nutrients and waste products.
• It’s not entirely clear what role delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS)
plays in muscle growth, but the fact that our sarcoplasmic training will
include a higher number of sets and reps than the myofibrillar focused
portions means that soreness will be higher in the muscles targeted with
the sarcoplasmic training. Because of this, the workload of the program is
structured such that which muscles will experience greater DOMS is taken

A wall of text I realise but it’s a copy and paste job either read it or don’t it’s absolutely invaluable info

Also this is available for free online and he’s discussed it on many vids before people think I’m sharing strictly private content

 

[GeekGenetics]

i know thisll probably get ripped apart here and typically for good reason, but if this is the route you want to go i would actually really consider looking into the RP work. it seems to me that youd be a great candidate for that style of training base off so many factors: your age, your training history, your extreme dedication and consistency. to me based off those criteria, it would seem to be the best way for you to make progress based off what your trying to accomplish training wise.

 

[traininsane11]

i know thisll probably get ripped apart here and typically for good reason, but if this is the route you want to go i would actually really consider looking into the RP work. it seems to me that youd be a great candidate for that style of training base off so many factors: your age, your training history, your extreme dedication and consistency. to me based off those criteria, it would seem to be the best way for you to make progress based off what your trying to accomplish training wise.

You’re a brave man suggesting that here

Honestly though I think a lot of us do it regardless even if we don’t have the app (is it actually decent) or label ourselves as doing it

 

[Bleed]

You are an IFBB pro so take this with a grain of salt.

High intensity and DC absolutely did wonders for me but at the cost of tendonitis that always crept in. I never saw it coming. Each time it happened it took months to resolve so I told myself I would pull back if I noticed any issues. The issue was I never noticed any issues and then I was dealing with it again.

I switched to volume with much shorter rests and pre-exhaustion. It also works. And the added benefit of no tendonitis so no breaks having to let it heal. Ive really done my best to fix forms and focus on correct exercises that work for me.

My issue is the gear. I got to where I am taking what I do and I realize if I want to see serious further improvement I'm going to have to increase that as well. I am definitely no genetic elite. I just need to figure out if it's worth it or not. I am 99% certain you have this area figured out. I dont know what you took to create the physique you did but whatever it was, if everything else is dialed in, it's an option.

 

[GeekGenetics]

You’re a brave man suggesting that here

Honestly though I think a lot of us do it regardless even if we don’t have the app (is it actually decent) or label ourselves as doing it

bro i know, and i fully accept responsibility for suggesting it lmao but i know the guys here i see often and respect use their brain a lot more than their social media haha once we remove the stupidity we see of clickbait from dr mike, and really just try to focus on the actual meat and potatoes of what RP tries to preach as their main mechanisms of programming, like you said i think a lot of us already kinda do things similarly to that. im not saying use the app or anything either, just the principles to me seem to line up well for him. now if he was a younger man asking here, id be saying go to church and praise our lord and savior john meadows but im pretty sure at this point, that much volume and intensity might be a huge hindrance vs the 160lb teeny bopper who hasnt trained actually hard once in his life.

 

[d4ve]

Signs it was time:

• Frequent aches and pains, despite good technique
• Anxiety-inducing loads "having" to be used to progress in the weight x reps sense
• Gains in fullness & roundness not reflecting gains in strength, even in bodybuilding rep ranges
• Poor ratio of muscle-to-fat gain in a surplus, even while progressing in strength
• Coming close to a ceiling on strength...this one has some wiggle room, since you can technically keep adding load and / or reps...but you'll get to a point where you're using as much or more weight than guys who are bigger than you with similar frames.

Probably above all of those is the realization that, no, strength progressions are not the only way to add new muscle - that goes for both new contractile proteins and gains in sarcoplasm, fullness, whatever you want to call it. I think that the stronger you get, the more this is true. When you're only hack squatting 4-5pps for 8-10 reps using a normal ROM and rep tempo, 1-2pps with a fancy tempo, set / rep schemes, intensifiers, etc. might be a waste of time. But when you're handling impressive loads on every movement, scaling things back 20-50% and getting creative is still going to have you handling significant weights in a productive way.

As an aside, I'm extremely glad I've taken a paradigm shift in my training - much of which just involved listening to my wife (phenomenal physical therapist and coach, @danilamartinadpt). Had I just kept hammering away at progressive overload, I'd have probably assumed I likewise had to keep ramping up food and gear - neither of which is really going to improve my look when I'm already taking the "standard" SHW ~2g AAS + 10iu GH and eating 5-6k calories per day in the off-season. I really think we'll see more healthy huge guys if more of us look at training - BIG changes in training - as the variable that can move the needle (pun not intended, lol).

Another edit / aside - more volume in terms of work sets isn't necessarily the answer. It's often a part of this process, but for example I'm still doing 6-8 hard sets for quads per week, spread across leg press, hack, and leg extension. The change is in how I'm executing those sets, along with the use of different intensifiers from what I was using before. With other body parts, the total number of sets definitely is increasing. Just depends on where the needs are.

 

[Flex500]

The title pretty much says it all…

I’m currently completely revamping what I’m doing in preparation for the coming year’s improvement season. I will be increasing both food and training volume. I’ve spent the better part of three decades training Dorian-style… one set to failure with all of the intensifiers that we have come to know and love. And the last decade has pretty much just felt like a holding pattern for me, competing at the same weight, but a little leaner each time.

I would challenge anyone to train or eat or utilize supplementation more consistently than I do. I can say, without any ego, that I am doing all of the things as correctly as I KNOW how to do them. That should have resulted in SOME additional muscular growth at this point. Even with the worst genetics in the world, training one’s balls off should not simply result in a maintenance of the status quo.

I think that I might be one of those people that would benefit from additional volume, so I’m pulling the trigger. Although this is my rebound and I know pretty much everything is going to work right now, I am gradually increasing my volume week over a week and my recovery seems to be just fine.

My question to the group is this… For those of you that trained with higher volumes, or maybe (like myself) became disillusioned with the “high intensity everything to fill your balls to the walls. If you aren’t abusing yourself, you aren’t training“ methodologies and an accompanying lack of progress, when did you make the decision to utilize our volumes? How did you implement this? What markers did you look for to ensure recovery was acceptable and the fatigue was not becoming an issue?

Am I simply becoming a crazy old man that should just accept successfully staving off sarcopenia as the victory?

To that last question, I say if that. I’ve seen too many people in their 40s and 50s make progress. I’ve not made any real progress in a lot of years, and that should not be the case, between the way I eat, and my consistency around doing everything that needs to be done, something should’ve given. The only thing I have it done over the past years is revamp training.

I would love to hear thoughts and discussions on this based on personal experience, what you’ve seen others do, or simply theoretical conversations that you’ve had with yourself.

I’m actually in the same boat right now...going from a strict Dorian / Mentzer style of training (true single set to failure) toward a blend that looks more like what guys like Justin Harris or John Meadows did.

In fairness, I haven’t been as consistent the past few years as you’ve been, but for many years I was very much locked into the high intensity approach. I still believe in the principles...but I’ve come to see some issues...

• Mental fatigue: Running all out to failure with intensifiers every session is draining.
• Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy gap: You miss out on that layer of growth. Myofibrillar hypertrophy and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy are both real and distinct. Harris talks a lot about this, and I think most people underestimate it. It may just be a cosmetic thing...but...it's a thing.
• Volume balance: Meadows, to me, struck a really good mix. His programs might look high volume on paper, but the quality of effort per set was high, so it never felt like “junk volume.”

One thing I’d caution on is how people perform reps. A lot of “HIT” tendon / overuse issues come down to rushing the transition from eccentric to concentric. If you slow the negative (3–7 sec depending on the exercise), control the transition, then drive the positive, you take away most of that wear and tear. I’ve seen guys fix their tendon pain almost overnight just by tightening up their tempo.

I’d recommend you check out some of Meadows’ stuff like Pain and Suffering. That program is beating me up right now in a good way. I still take sets very hard, but it has enough volume and variety to spark growth again. Honestly, even if you look back at Mentzer’s own routines, the periods he grew the most were when he had a little more volume (his split with legs/chest/tris and back/shoulders/bis was still HIT style but not “just one set per muscle forever”).

I'm still a HIT guy at heart but I’m with you and I think there’s merit in revamping training at this point, especially for us who’ve been at this for decades.

 

[d4ve]

I’m actually in the same boat right now...going from a strict Dorian / Mentzer style of training (true single set to failure) toward a blend that looks more like what guys like Justin Harris or John Meadows did.

In fairness, I haven’t been as consistent the past few years as you’ve been, but for many years I was very much locked into the high intensity approach. I still believe in the principles...but I’ve come to see some issues...

• Mental fatigue: Running all out to failure with intensifiers every session is draining.
• Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy gap: You miss out on that layer of growth. Myofibrillar hypertrophy and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy are both real and distinct. Harris talks a lot about this, and I think most people underestimate it. It may just be a cosmetic thing...but...it's a thing.
• Volume balance: Meadows, to me, struck a really good mix. His programs might look high volume on paper, but the quality of effort per set was high, so it never felt like “junk volume.”

One thing I’d caution on is how people perform reps. A lot of “HIT” tendon / overuse issues come down to rushing the transition from eccentric to concentric. If you slow the negative (3–7 sec depending on the exercise), control the transition, then drive the positive, you take away most of that wear and tear. I’ve seen guys fix their tendon pain almost overnight just by tightening up their tempo.

I’d recommend you check out some of Meadows’ stuff like Pain and Suffering. That program is beating me up right now in a good way. I still take sets very hard, but it has enough volume and variety to spark growth again. Honestly, even if you look back at Mentzer’s own routines, the periods he grew the most were when he had a little more volume (his split with legs/chest/tris and back/shoulders/bis was still HIT style but not “just one set per muscle forever”).

I'm still a HIT guy at heart but I’m with you and I think there’s merit in revamping training at this point, especially for us who’ve been at this for decades.

The mental fatigue is real, psychological and …otherwise? Basically the anxiety of worrying that every leg day could be your last for a while, combined with the comedown from a PR set.

Now it’s more like… “I’m anxious about how hard this will be, and I might need a nap later.” Next day- I’m a bit tired, I’m hungry, and I’m sore, but my joints feel great. Aka a really satisfying feeling

 

[Flex500]

The mental fatigue is real, psychological and …otherwise? Basically the anxiety of worrying that every leg day could be your last for a while, combined with the comedown from a PR set.

Now it’s more like… “I’m anxious about how hard this will be, and I might need a nap later.” Next day- I’m a bit tired, I’m hungry, and I’m sore, but my joints feel great. Aka a really satisfying feeling

So true...although I will say on Sundays I do legs and now at week 3 in meadows pain and suffering program I get genuine anxiety before the workout lol.

 

[Flex500]

Signs it was time:

• Frequent aches and pains, despite good technique
• Anxiety-inducing loads "having" to be used to progress in the weight x reps sense
• Gains in fullness & roundness not reflecting gains in strength, even in bodybuilding rep ranges
• Poor ratio of muscle-to-fat gain in a surplus, even while progressing in strength
• Coming close to a ceiling on strength...this one has some wiggle room, since you can technically keep adding load and / or reps...but you'll get to a point where you're using as much or more weight than guys who are bigger than you with similar frames.

Probably above all of those is the realization that, no, strength progressions are not the only way to add new muscle - that goes for both new contractile proteins and gains in sarcoplasm, fullness, whatever you want to call it. I think that the stronger you get, the more this is true. When you're only hack squatting 4-5pps for 8-10 reps using a normal ROM and rep tempo, 1-2pps with a fancy tempo, set / rep schemes, intensifiers, etc. might be a waste of time. But when you're handling impressive loads on every movement, scaling things back 20-50% and getting creative is still going to have you handling significant weights in a productive way.

As an aside, I'm extremely glad I've taken a paradigm shift in my training - much of which just involved listening to my wife (phenomenal physical therapist and coach, @danilamartinadpt). Had I just kept hammering away at progressive overload, I'd have probably assumed I likewise had to keep ramping up food and gear - neither of which is really going to improve my look when I'm already taking the "standard" SHW ~2g AAS + 10iu GH and eating 5-6k calories per day in the off-season. I really think we'll see more healthy huge guys if more of us look at training - BIG changes in training - as the variable that can move the needle (pun not intended, lol).

Another edit / aside - more volume in terms of work sets isn't necessarily the answer. It's often a part of this process, but for example I'm still doing 6-8 hard sets for quads per week, spread across leg press, hack, and leg extension. The change is in how I'm executing those sets, along with the use of different intensifiers from what I was using before. With other body parts, the total number of sets definitely is increasing. Just depends on where the needs are.

This (bolded) is a really important point

 

[gauge22-v2]

I think it comes down to still training to failure but increasing rep ranges and cadence....ie: Maintaining tension on the muscle throughout the rep and a 2-3 second eccentric.

My work sets, failure sets, has not changed but joints (except shoulder which is fucked) feel much better...

Time in gym is roughly the same as sets take longer but this is offset by less warmup sets, since weight used for work sets is lower...

 

[claymore]

A very wise young man told me his thoughts once upon a time about training and it’s echoed between these two ears of mine ever since. He said “What good is training heavy and all out all the time if your constantly hurt or rehabbing injuries?” He was 100% correct. That young man was George Leeman (Aka the one and only BABYSLAYER) I would suggest and definitely promote anyone that’s constantly finding themselves in pain or not enjoying or looking forward to training to revamp their style of training and not to focus so much on the weight and think more about actually stimulating the muscle some of the craziest physiques I’ve ever seen in person couldn’t hang with me on poundage’s but when they took their shirts off they looked straight CRAZY !!!!!!!! made me look like a woman…and every single one of them trained high volume moderate weight. Just food for thought

 

[kadafi2]

One thing I’d caution on is how people perform reps. A lot of “HIT” tendon / overuse issues come down to rushing the transition from eccentric to concentric. If you slow the negative (3–7 sec depending on the exercise), control the transition, then drive the positive, you take away most of that wear and tear. I’ve seen guys fix their tendon pain almost overnight just by tightening up their tempo.

Yes, this is one of the fundamental principles that guided Mike Mentzer and Arthur Jones. They believed that the eccentric phase causes the greatest "tear" in the muscle and stimulates growth. Intensity, in their view, doesn't mean throwing weights like Branch Warren, but rather controlling the weight throughout each phase of the movement. Arthur even claimed that the eccentric phase alone is sufficient to stimulate growth, if I recall correctly.

2. The part of training that the “bro-split” gets incorrect is that most people, if they’re training reasonably hard under a reasonably high workload, they’re probably creating a stimulus for new protein synthesis that is higher than their recovery and diet can cover. If this were not the case, then for any given training program, an increase in training volume should create a correlating increase in muscle growth—but this isn’t the case. This is also the explanation for why so many top bodybuilders seem to be able to train with limited intensity while still growing—because most people are training harder than they can locally (locally as in the short term) cover completely through diet and rest.

This is pure gold. Recently, a user wrote something similar, calling it "daily volume tolerance." Mike Arnold (I hope he recovers quickly!) wrote that muscle recovery isn't the same as muscle growth. They're two separate phases.

It turns out that if you train too hard/frequently/intensely, or don't eat/sleep enough, or both, the muscle can and will recover to be ready for the next workout, but it won't grow. This theory is really thought-provoking and one of the most interesting things I've learned from this forum.

Regarding sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, the most irritating thing is that it's fleeting. It's easy to lose. I also really enjoyed that post about beef after frying.

Anyway, thank you for these VERY valuable posts; they're a must-read.

Oh, and I'm not advocating for an IFBB pro here (lol), where I have no experience with it, but for now, I'm also training Mentzer-style because that's what I like best and believe in the system the most. Nevertheless, I'd love to hear others' experiences.

 

[td]

I'll echo what many others have said. It's more about execution than intensity. It's not just "fluff and buff" but can you feel the muscle contract? I know that seems remedial but so many just throwing weight through space perhaps without even realizing.

Eliminate momentum. Eliminate pauses between reps. Make the target muscle do the work. Every rep is a carbon copy. Do not change tempo or form to get more reps. Also, pick exercises that fit your body.

 

[luki7788]

Signs it was time:

• Frequent aches and pains, despite good technique
• Anxiety-inducing loads "having" to be used to progress in the weight x reps sense
• Gains in fullness & roundness not reflecting gains in strength, even in bodybuilding rep ranges
• Poor ratio of muscle-to-fat gain in a surplus, even while progressing in strength
• Coming close to a ceiling on strength...this one has some wiggle room, since you can technically keep adding load and / or reps...but you'll get to a point where you're using as much or more weight than guys who are bigger than you with similar frames.

Probably above all of those is the realization that, no, strength progressions are not the only way to add new muscle - that goes for both new contractile proteins and gains in sarcoplasm, fullness, whatever you want to call it. I think that the stronger you get, the more this is true. When you're only hack squatting 4-5pps for 8-10 reps using a normal ROM and rep tempo, 1-2pps with a fancy tempo, set / rep schemes, intensifiers, etc. might be a waste of time. But when you're handling impressive loads on every movement, scaling things back 20-50% and getting creative is still going to have you handling significant weights in a productive way.

As an aside, I'm extremely glad I've taken a paradigm shift in my training - much of which just involved listening to my wife (phenomenal physical therapist and coach, @danilamartinadpt). Had I just kept hammering away at progressive overload, I'd have probably assumed I likewise had to keep ramping up food and gear - neither of which is really going to improve my look when I'm already taking the "standard" SHW ~2g AAS + 10iu GH and eating 5-6k calories per day in the off-season. I really think we'll see more healthy huge guys if more of us look at training - BIG changes in training - as the variable that can move the needle (pun not intended, lol).

Another edit / aside - more volume in terms of work sets isn't necessarily the answer. It's often a part of this process, but for example I'm still doing 6-8 hard sets for quads per week, spread across leg press, hack, and leg extension. The change is in how I'm executing those sets, along with the use of different intensifiers from what I was using before. With other body parts, the total number of sets definitely is increasing. Just depends on where the needs are.

I can't add anything more to this - I agree 100%