Revamping my training, how did you know it was time to jump off of the high intensity, train, and go the higher volume route?

[3BILLS]

You just know

 

[Aikman56]

I hope my earlier comment didn’t come across as argumentative — that wasn’t my intention at all. I was just sharing my own path of going from high volume to HIT and finding it suited me best. I thought it might be interesting considering I started higher volume and ended up more HIT, making some of my best gains in my late 40s. You are more accomplished than I and probably more disciplined so I would not suggest my way is better, just sharing. IME the happy medium of intensity and volume gives the best results for most.

On sarcoplasmic hypertrophy: I don’t deny the role of acute fluid shifts, glycogen storage, and transient inflammation in creating fullness or “the pump.” But I haven’t seen convincing evidence that there’s a durable, independent hypertrophy mechanism separate from contractile growth. In my view, as myofibrils increase, supporting sarcoplasm and interstitial fluid necessarily scale up with them. Glycogen capacity increase is real, but I’d put that in its own category and largely attributable to PEDs.

About the Carl Sagan quote, it actually comes from The Demon-Haunted World, which I recently revisited. It’s an excellent read on the problem of people believing rather than knowing — of choosing fantasy over evidence. If anything, it feels more relevant today than when it was written. But I think it’s important to note the quote is often inverted: Sagan’s point was that “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence” does not validate a claim by default — otherwise we’d have to accept UFOs just because we can’t disprove them. In this case sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is the UFO. And I’d also gently push back on the beef jerky analogy, I saw it on Justin's IG last week (?). Human muscle isn’t desiccated to begin with; it’s already highly hydrated. So the “rehydrated space” metaphor doesn’t quite hold up biologically.

That said, I respect your approach. As meticulous as you are with your training, diet, and execution, you absolutely owe it to yourself to change gears if you feel you’ve hit a wall. I’d actually encourage it and be interested in your findings.

No… Your comment only came across as informative and contributory to the discussion. We’ve been following each other on here long enough to know that that’s not how either one of us are. I always appreciate your input!

And thanks for the reminder on the rest of the info about the Sagan quote… It’s been a long time since I’ve done a deep dive into that material… It might be time for a revisit!

 

[Aikman56]

The unmentioned variables…

1- Are you using full ROM exercises?

2- Are there any limiting factors in the exercises you select? Ex: Barbell Rows make you tired overall, and the load fatigues your posterior chain to where it takes away from your lats? Do barbell squats make you overall just tired, or do your quads actually fail first?

3- Are you choosing exercises with complete resistance profiles and not leaking tension when performing them? Is the muscle you’re training the first thing that moves the weight?

4- Do you control the tempo? Slow to medium negatives? Killing all momentum in the stretch and in the contraction?

5. Systemic fatigue… I think I do a really good job with that… I feel like my fatigue management and recovery have been pretty great all around, which is why I’m considering higher volume approach. Other than the very end of my diet (the last 4 to 6 weeks) I always feel fresh and well rested, I’m enthusiastic to train, (and I know this is not THE marker of recovery, but I’m just throwing it in here) I honestly cannot remember the last time that a muscle was truly sore.
Before I started training with John Meadows back in 2012, I feel like I spent 90% of my life with some kind of muscle recovery from DOMS… After he taught me about volume management and peri-workout Nutrition, soreness has literally become a distant memory.

It’s often not the volume or “intensity”. When your priority is load, technique suffers a bit when trying to hit PR’s on reps and new load thresholds. Those little thrusts, rapid changes in direction, and lack of ROM wind up really taking their toll.

If you saw the movie “Days of Thunder”, there’s that scene where Tom Cruise drives like a madman, and his tires are all ripped to shreds. His pit crew boss teaches him a way to drive without doing ripping them apart and he winds up driving faster. Similar analogy here.

I currently adjust volume based on recovery, time, frequency of training, and whether or not I’m on cycle. It’s never high or low, it’s scheduled based on what I can recover from according to the week I have planned. No more aches and pains, no injuries, and I’m still gaining at 40 going on 41.

1. Yes. I abandoned any type of ego lifting a decade ago. I never sacrifice range of motion or proper technique for additional poundage.

2. Well, no one‘s programming is perfect, I think I’ve taken enough away from my time with Meadows and Stevenson and just my own alterations. I have my body function that I can safely say that I avoid 95% of the pitfalls of improper programming/sequencing. So I feel like this is covered.

3. This is something about which I have become acutely aware of over the last 3 to 5 years. Sometimes I wonder if I’m over analyzing and being too strict. But yes, I ensure that tension remains on the targeted muscle from the moment the lift is initiated throughout the range of motion into stretch and back to the beginning. I used to love exercises like deadstop rows and things of that nature, but after studying how mechanical tension works, I completely abandoned those types of movements.

As I said earlier, no one’s programming is 100% perfect, and I’m sure there are little nuances that I can improve, and I constantly try to do so. As much as the “tripod Bros“ drive me nuts, anytime I have a doubt about how an exercise is being performed. I’ll set my phone up and record myself or have my wife record it so I can go back and observe to try to clean things up.

 

[Aikman56]

3 PLUS decades?....i would say improvement is long gone. best to hope for is maybe more detail/3D look.

i would honestly consider hanging up the trunks.

Dude, I was in my late 20s and early 30s so I remember telling someone “I will never be one of those 40-year-old guys in my trunks stage!”
But here I am…
For me, come down to meeting a goal pursue. I need to put as much pressure on myself as possible in order to perform at my best. I simply cannot wrap my brain doing anything other than constantly trying to improve.

Well, I’m not necessarily added and appreciation muscle mass over the last few years, my conditioning has improved every year. I feel like there’s always something that I can attack, something upon which improvement can be made.

And actually, I know that this can be done outside of the sphere of competition, and I hope one day be mentally healthy enough to do that. Unfortunately, I’m just not there yet.

 

[tenny]

Dude, I was in my late 20s and early 30s so I remember telling someone “I will never be one of those 40-year-old guys in my trunks stage!”
But here I am…
For me, come down to meeting a goal pursue. I need to put as much pressure on myself as possible in order to perform at my best. I simply cannot wrap my brain doing anything other than constantly trying to improve.

Well, I’m not necessarily added and appreciation muscle mass over the last few years, my conditioning has improved every year. I feel like there’s always something that I can attack, something upon which improvement can be made.

And actually, I know that this can be done outside of the sphere of competition, and I hope one day be mentally healthy enough to do that. Unfortunately, I’m just not there yet.

it figures when i stopped competing, that they came out with all these sub-classes, and ive won open overalls, been on stage
with (now) pros. and BEATIN them. i never had the size to compete at a higher level, my highest weight on stage was 224. 09'
and being 6'0 just wasnt big enough, and didnt have the means to get bigger at that time. i wish they had classic back then.
things would be different i would assume.

 

[luki7788]

Dude, I was in my late 20s and early 30s so I remember telling someone “I will never be one of those 40-year-old guys in my trunks stage!”
But here I am…
For me, come down to meeting a goal pursue. I need to put as much pressure on myself as possible in order to perform at my best. I simply cannot wrap my brain doing anything other than constantly trying to improve.

Well, I’m not necessarily added and appreciation muscle mass over the last few years, my conditioning has improved every year. I feel like there’s always something that I can attack, something upon which improvement can be made.

And actually, I know that this can be done outside of the sphere of competition, and I hope one day be mentally healthy enough to do that. Unfortunately, I’m just not there yet.

Why should someone stop doing what they love? Never let anyone tell you to quit something that gives you meaning, passion, and joy. Not everyone competes to take first place. Some just enjoy the process, the feeling, and the atmosphere of the competition. Why stop doing it? Just because someone else says so?

 

[traininsane11]

Why should someone stop doing what they love? Never let anyone tell you to quit something that gives you meaning, passion, and joy. Not everyone competes to take first place. Some just enjoy the process, the feeling, and the atmosphere of the competition. Why stop doing it? Just because someone else says so?

Totally agree with this. If you’re truly only competing to win (we all want to obviously but we have to be realistic) then unless you’re a genetic freak I’d find a different hobby

 

[tenny]

like trying to convince a serial killer to "maybe you should re-think what youre doing....i know you love it, and its your passion
but, i guess if you didnt get caught yet, may as well keep on goin" like ronnie has said many times "i would do it the same all
over again....but i can barely walk"

 

[comedycentral]

it’s an interesting topic actually. Those of us 40plus 50 plus in my case when you have been training for multiple years are you kidding yourself you can make gains. Most people I know who have trained for some length of time often talk about getting “back to” a size they have already been in the past or getting back to weights they used to lift in the past. I don’t know many making new gains new tissue etc.

 

[alfresco]

it’s an interesting topic actually. Those of us 40plus 50 plus in my case when you have been training for multiple years are you kidding yourself you can make gains. Most people I know who have trained for some length of time often talk about getting “back to” a size they have already been in the past or getting back to weights they used to lift in the past. I don’t know many making new gains new tissue etc.

Me. I must be an outlier.

I am 70, started training when I was 18 I trained 30 years until I made my best games ever starting at the age of fifty so anybody who says you can’t add new muscular development at the age of you reference, without taking to account my experiences.

 

[comedycentral]

Me. I must be an outlier.

I am 70, started training when I was 18 I trained 30 years until I made my best games ever starting at the age of fifty so anybody who says you can’t add new muscular development at the age of you reference, without taking to account my experiences.

But respectfully doesn’t these need context? I think I’m right in saying you went on trt+? At this age. If all things were equal and you remained natural would you have made those gains or would in reality you possibly just regained what you’d lost during a period of inactivity.
I would take a guess that most people are in aikman shoes and haven’t gained anything in years despite anabolics good food intake etc. there must be a point of diminished return.

 

[alfresco]

But respectfully doesn’t these need context? I think I’m right in saying you went on trt+? At this age. If all things were equal and you remained natural would you have made those gains or would in reality you possibly just regained what you’d lost during a period of inactivity.
I would take a guess that most people are in aikman shoes and haven’t gained anything in years despite anabolics good food intake etc. there must be a point of diminished return.

Just sharing my experience that’s all.

You are correct, TRT. And if I were natural those gains would have been in my opinion literally impossible. And true also, if you’ve been on the juice, your entire life and 50 years old was just around the corner. It’s doubtful that you would continue and or make meaningful games regardless of what you do.

There there is a point of diminishing returns for sure. Glad you made that point.

 

[GroundFloor]

I’m sorry if this has already been addressed but I did not see it in the first post and I can imagine that you probably keep detailed records of previous benchmarks. Wanted to just throw it out there for everyone to have the most info possible.

How much exactly are you looking to gain as far as lbs/kgs? And is that dramatic changes in overall size or are you trying to add small amounts to specific places?

Are you at your maximum PED dosing risk wise or do you have more room to escalate it?

If you are trying to gain a lot more, have you experienced any negative side effects of previous attempts (Digestion issues, etc)?

I think answering these questions may help a little bit.

I always viewed training volume, frequency, and effort as simple variables that we change overtime due to a change in adversity to risk for injury, life changes, and adherence. The main goal being to make increases in strength over the long term with same form at whichever intensity/volume/frequency that allows us to stay in the game the longest to let food and PEDs help us grow eventual pounds of lean mass.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

it’s an interesting topic actually. Those of us 40plus 50 plus in my case when you have been training for multiple years are you kidding yourself you can make gains. Most people I know who have trained for some length of time often talk about getting “back to” a size they have already been in the past or getting back to weights they used to lift in the past. I don’t know many making new gains new tissue etc.

Most people never had a good strategy. It’s a combination of genetics, how much damage you’ve suffered over the years, and strategy.

I’ve been training since 15, competing since 18, will be 41 soon, and will likely be bigger and leaner than I ever have next time I compete… and I’m a super heavy.

It seems as if late 40’s/early 50’s is when people truly stop being able to make noticeable progress regardless of how meticulous they are and how many mg’s they push.

Paul Barnett looked his best at 50. Saw him in person. He did a great job.

In your 40’s, it’s a “depends on a lot” scenario. Uniquely individual.

50+ is when your body says “NOPE. Just hold on to what you’ve got as you slowly lose size”

I’m in a health phase (30mg test cyp ED) easily holding 268/270 right now. If I were on a real cycle and pushing food, 280+ would take a month or two. If I only focused on growing without entering a cut? Who knows? Maybe 285-290? My age would feel it joint wise and cardiovascular wise, but adding lean tissue wouldn’t be the struggle.

It really depends on the person.

 

[Josefein421]

Why should someone stop doing what they love? Never let anyone tell you to quit something that gives you meaning, passion, and joy. Not everyone competes to take first place. Some just enjoy the process, the feeling, and the atmosphere of the competition. Why stop doing it? Just because someone else says so?

The people who rely on the destination or result for satisfaction will never have the peace or fulfillment of someone who pursues something for the joy of the process. The result is fleeting. Winning lasts a moment before you need to repeat it to get the feeling.

I read a parable about who had more fulfillment.... a guy who won the Olympic gold medal but turned in a less than best ever performance. Or the guy who came in 5th but by far did his best ever. Same kind of applies. We all want to win but winning isnt the end all be all barometer of success or fulfillment.

 

[hawkmoon]

Most people never had a good strategy. It’s a combination of genetics, how much damage you’ve suffered over the years, and strategy.

I’ve been training since 15, competing since 18, will be 41 soon, and will likely be bigger and leaner than I ever have next time I compete… and I’m a super heavy.

It seems as if late 40’s/early 50’s is when people truly stop being able to make noticeable progress regardless of how meticulous they are and how many mg’s they push.

Paul Barnett looked his best at 50. Saw him in person. He did a great job.

In your 40’s, it’s a “depends on a lot” scenario. Uniquely individual.

50+ is when your body says “NOPE. Just hold on to what you’ve got as you slowly lose size”

I’m in a health phase (30mg test cyp ED) easily holding 268/270 right now. If I were on a real cycle and pushing food, 280+ would take a month or two. If I only focused on growing without entering a cut? Who knows? Maybe 285-290? My age would feel it joint wise and cardiovascular wise, but adding lean tissue wouldn’t be the struggle.

It really depends on the person.

I'm 15 years older than you - though not nearly as large. Similar path. Started at 15, first show at 18. 56 next month.
I made big improvements in my late 40s when I decided to compete again. My legs didn't respond however. I had intentionally downsized them a few years earlier and they didn't want to come back.
This aligns with what I have heard about elite athletes. Those who continue without stopping might see little loss, those who stop and try to restart have issues. Genetics play a huge role however.

What I mentioned about aging athletes above: Turning Back Time with Neil deGrasse Tyson and Kevin Stone Podcast

 

[hawkmoon]

The people who rely on the destination or result for satisfaction will never have the peace or fulfillment of someone who pursues something for the joy of the process. The result is fleeting. Winning lasts a moment before you need to repeat it to get the feeling.

I read a parable about who had more fulfillment.... a guy who won the Olympic gold medal but turned in a less than best ever performance. Or the guy who came in 5th but by far did his best ever. Same kind of applies. We all want to win but winning isnt the end all be all barometer of success or fulfillment.

I never liked the actual competition, but have always enjoyed the process.
That may contribute to why I still do it all. I have never cared about winning very much.

I have had friends become upset with me when I say I don't care about getting a pro card, as they want to get one.
I'm not devaluing their goal, it's just not mine. I love to train and make progress, then see how lean I can get, revealing what I created.

 

[qbkilla]

it’s an interesting topic actually. Those of us 40plus 50 plus in my case when you have been training for multiple years are you kidding yourself you can make gains. Most people I know who have trained for some length of time often talk about getting “back to” a size they have already been in the past or getting back to weights they used to lift in the past. I don’t know many making new gains new tissue etc.

No idea if true, but ive heard people say that as you age, get smaller for whatever reason, then attempt to regain previous size...glutes are the toughest muscle group to get back.

 

[comedycentral]

I'm 15 years older than you - though not nearly as large. Similar path. Started at 15, first show at 18. 56 next month.
I made big improvements in my late 40s when I decided to compete again. My legs didn't respond however. I had intentionally downsized them a few years earlier and they didn't want to come back.
This aligns with what I have heard about elite athletes. Those who continue without stopping might see little loss, those who stop and try to restart have issues. Genetics play a huge role however.

What I mentioned about aging athletes above: Turning Back Time with Neil deGrasse Tyson and Kevin Stone Podcast

Great post. My shoulders in the last 5 years have lost considerable size and I’m unsure why. I still shoulder press a reasonable amount and actually feel I have better connection when I do laterals as I now use a lat raise machine I have that I feel directly on my delts yet they are nowhere near as wide as they used to be

 

[comedycentral]

Most people never had a good strategy. It’s a combination of genetics, how much damage you’ve suffered over the years, and strategy.

I’ve been training since 15, competing since 18, will be 41 soon, and will likely be bigger and leaner than I ever have next time I compete… and I’m a super heavy.

It seems as if late 40’s/early 50’s is when people truly stop being able to make noticeable progress regardless of how meticulous they are and how many mg’s they push.

Paul Barnett looked his best at 50. Saw him in person. He did a great job.

In your 40’s, it’s a “depends on a lot” scenario. Uniquely individual.

50+ is when your body says “NOPE. Just hold on to what you’ve got as you slowly lose size”

I’m in a health phase (30mg test cyp ED) easily holding 268/270 right now. If I were on a real cycle and pushing food, 280+ would take a month or two. If I only focused on growing without entering a cut? Who knows? Maybe 285-290? My age would feel it joint wise and cardiovascular wise, but adding lean tissue wouldn’t be the struggle.

It really depends on the person.

Very true I feel then when you are in your 50s it’s frustrating as it seems a ton of effort and time to spin your wheels in neutral to hopefully not go backwards.