Revamping my training, how did you know it was time to jump off of the high intensity, train, and go the higher volume route?

[bigzzz]

Tbh going to absolute failure on everything does havoc on your CNS. I was brainwashed and thought it was needed to make gains. Since I started implementing staying further away from failure(approx 2 RIR or something) I feel so much fresher. Added volume also and I am much more round then the low volume to all out failure approach.

 

[traininsane11]

Only a week in so who knows BUT gotta say mentally and physically I feel so much better not maxing out the load and hanging on for dear life and going to the death on every set and using more of a pyramid approach focusing on contracting the muscle against load and occasionally adopting a RIR approach on some sets leading up to the final set of an exercise

 

[Ha.Ki.Beom]

training is so painful to me atm that I am considering the volume approach....too many micro injuries that never get to heal, its painful even in my rest days.

 

[qbkilla]

Tbh going to absolute failure on everything does havoc on your CNS. I was brainwashed and thought it was needed to make gains. Since I started implementing staying further away from failure(approx 2 RIR or something) I feel so much fresher. Added volume also and I am much more round then the low volume to all out failure approach.

Have you tried still going to failure with higher volume, but increasing the rep range, using less taxing exercises, or shorter rest intervals so intensity is still maintained?

 

[bigzzz]

Have you tried still going to failure with higher volume, but increasing the rep range, using less taxing exercises, or shorter rest intervals so intensity is still maintained?

Going to failure with high(er) volume is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

Tbh going to absolute failure on everything does havoc on your CNS. I was brainwashed and thought it was needed to make gains. Since I started implementing staying further away from failure(approx 2 RIR or something) I feel so much fresher. Added volume also and I am much more round then the low volume to all out failure approach.

If your reps are continuous motion reps to failure, it’s much less. The reps where you stop, rest, go, stop, rest, go… those are the failure sets that tax your CNS a ton. You’re essentially splitting the set into multiple sets.

So a leg press where you do 8, take 3 breaths, do 5, take 3-4 breaths, then eek out another rep or two… vs doing as many reps as you can until you have to rack the weight and stop.

Two very different effects.

 

[madg]

If your reps are continuous motion reps to failure, it’s much less. The reps where you stop, rest, go, stop, rest, go… those are the failure sets that tax your CNS a ton. You’re essentially splitting the set into multiple sets.

So a leg press where you do 8, take 3 breaths, do 5, take 3-4 breaths, then eek out another rep or two… vs doing as many reps as you can until you have to rack the weight and stop.

Two very different effects.

This ^^

Continues tension , piston style movement no stops until form breaks

Failure for me ^^

 

[bigzzz]

If your reps are continuous motion reps to failure, it’s much less. The reps where you stop, rest, go, stop, rest, go… those are the failure sets that tax your CNS a ton. You’re essentially splitting the set into multiple sets.

So a leg press where you do 8, take 3 breaths, do 5, take 3-4 breaths, then eek out another rep or two… vs doing as many reps as you can until you have to rack the weight and stop.

Two very different effects.

I agree!

But the first method you mention I don't consider true failure but that's me.

 

[Aikman56]

it’s an interesting topic actually. Those of us 40plus 50 plus in my case when you have been training for multiple years are you kidding yourself you can make gains. Most people I know who have trained for some length of time often talk about getting “back to” a size they have already been in the past or getting back to weights they used to lift in the past. I don’t know many making new gains new tissue etc.

I couldn’t disagree with this more wholeheartedly… I’ve seen lots of guys in their 40s and 50s had new muscle. I’m just trying to do everything I can to be a member of that club.

 

[Aikman56]

But respectfully doesn’t these need context? I think I’m right in saying you went on trt+? At this age. If all things were equal and you remained natural would you have made those gains or would in reality you possibly just regained what you’d lost during a period of inactivity.
I would take a guess that most people are in aikman shoes and haven’t gained anything in years despite anabolics good food intake etc. there must be a point of diminished return.

Which is why you change variables… And that’s what I’m doing. There’s always some nuance, some training, methodology, some nutritional approach… There’s always something that can be attempted. I just don’t have a whole lot of quit in me. Again, not very mentally healthy, I’ll admit… And if I don’t gain an ounce, I’m still going to be happy because I’m doing what I love to do.

 

[kadafi2]

If your reps are continuous motion reps to failure, it’s much less. The reps where you stop, rest, go, stop, rest, go… those are the failure sets that tax your CNS a ton. You’re essentially splitting the set into multiple sets.

So a leg press where you do 8, take 3 breaths, do 5, take 3-4 breaths, then eek out another rep or two… vs doing as many reps as you can until you have to rack the weight and stop.

Two very different effects.

This method of increasing intensity is called a "cluster set." In the example above, the set consists of 3 clusters: 8, 5, 1-2 reps.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

This method of increasing intensity is called a "cluster set." In the example above, the set consists of 3 clusters: 8, 5, 1-2 reps.

It’s accidental clustering. Cluster sets are purposely done with measured amounts of rest between, fully stopping/racking weight, and trying to achieve a required amount of volume per set and net reps total.

In a true cluster set, someone would rack the weight on purpose… rest the required amount of time… perform more reps… and repeat.

 

[traininsane11]

If your reps are continuous motion reps to failure, it’s much less. The reps where you stop, rest, go, stop, rest, go… those are the failure sets that tax your CNS a ton. You’re essentially splitting the set into multiple sets.

So a leg press where you do 8, take 3 breaths, do 5, take 3-4 breaths, then eek out another rep or two… vs doing as many reps as you can until you have to rack the weight and stop.

Two very different effects.

Been saying this for a long while about what a lot of the TBJP style of training advocates do. They’ll do a set of 10 on a leg press and it will be broken down to

3 normal reps
3-4 5 breaths between reps
3-4 reps with 2 guys heaving the sled up with them

Re rack it and call it 1 set

 

[kadafi2]

It’s accidental clustering. Cluster sets are purposely done with measured amounts of rest between, fully stopping/racking weight, and trying to achieve a required amount of volume per set and net reps total.

In a true cluster set, someone would rack the weight on purpose… rest the required amount of time… perform more reps… and repeat.

How would you describe the differences between the rest pause and cluster set methods? Because what you wrote seems very similar to rest pause. Do these methods have any particular differences?

 

[Aikman56]

I’m sorry if this has already been addressed but I did not see it in the first post and I can imagine that you probably keep detailed records of previous benchmarks. Wanted to just throw it out there for everyone to have the most info possible.

How much exactly are you looking to gain as far as lbs/kgs? And is that dramatic changes in overall size or are you trying to add small amounts to specific places?

Are you at your maximum PED dosing risk wise or do you have more room to escalate it?

If you are trying to gain a lot more, have you experienced any negative side effects of previous attempts (Digestion issues, etc)?

I think answering these questions may help a little bit.

I always viewed training volume, frequency, and effort as simple variables that we change overtime due to a change in adversity to risk for injury, life changes, and adherence. The main goal being to make increases in strength over the long term with same form at whichever intensity/volume/frequency that allows us to stay in the game the longest to let food and PEDs help us grow eventual pounds of lean mass.

I’m not looking at a specific number… I just like to put a little more meat on my back and arms. I know idiot, I know that even under the best circumstances three or 6 pounds of stage weight is that the top end of what could be hoped for.

I definitely have more room to escalate. Years ago, I push things pretty hard. But I’ve found a sweet spot where I feel like. I have a good balance of efficacy and risk. That being said, I get blood work done every quarter, and it’s better than good… So I may push things just a little bit more this year.

No digestion issues. Last year, in my carb cycling, I was up to about 700 g on medium days and 1100 g or so on holidays. I’m five weeks post contest now and I have my medium days up to 600 and my high days up to 1100 with no delirious effects, and still remaining pretty lean. So as I push the volume up calories will follow. Take my gut health and efficiency very seriously, and then probably utilizing more supplements for gut health and digestion that I am for any other aspect of life…

 

[Aikman56]

Forgive my abysmal grammar in the post above… Talk to text is kicking my ass today!

 

[Big Dave Smith]

How would you describe the differences between the rest pause and cluster set methods? Because what you wrote seems very similar to rest pause. Do these methods have any particular differences?

Rest Pause is longer between sets. Cluster sets less time.

RP = 10-20 deep breaths or a set amount of time equivalent.
Cluster = 5 breaths or so max.

They are similar. Squares vs rectangles. They’re all parallelograms.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

Also, I’m not making these definitions up. Dante and Scott Stevenson outlined all this stuff in their training methods.

Side note- Trevor Smith describes my favorite rep style as “ZMR” or “Zero Momentum Reps”. I don’t do only 3 or 4 reps, but the slow THEN accelerate is a game changer. Grok may be off in arbitrarily selecting rep numbers. It’s the execution that’s important.

“Zero Momentum Reps (ZMRs) is a high-intensity weight training technique developed by Trevor Smith, a bodybuilder known for his extreme “Beyond Failure Training” (BFT) or “Demon Training” methods. Smith, who reportedly weighed over 400 pounds at one point and focused on pushing sets far beyond normal failure through forced reps, drop sets, and specialized rep styles, introduced ZMRs to eliminate momentum, target sticking points, and build both size and strength.


In ZMRs, you select a weight you could normally handle for 15-20 reps but perform them in a strictly controlled way to drastically reduce the rep count to 3-4 while ramping up intensity tenfold. Using the bench press as an example:


• Lower the bar slowly and deliberately to your chest over 2-3 seconds (eccentric phase).


• Pause briefly at the bottom to remove any bounce or momentum.


• Press up steadily and slowly for the first quarter of the concentric phase, avoiding explosive thrusts that bypass the sticking point (the hardest part near the start of the lift).


• Maintain maximum tension without relying on inertia, which helps eliminate weak points and reduces injury risk like pectoral tears from jerky movements. ”

 

[kadafi2]

Also, I’m not making these definitions up. Dante and Scott Stevenson outlined all this stuff in their training methods.

Side note- Trevor Smith describes my favorite rep style as “ZMR” or “Zero Momentum Reps”. I don’t do only 3 or 4 reps, but the slow THEN accelerate is a game changer. Grok may be off in arbitrarily selecting rep numbers. It’s the execution that’s important.

• Press up steadily and slowly for the first quarter of the concentric phase, avoiding explosive thrusts that bypass the sticking point (the hardest part near the start of the lift).

I'm asking because I like what you're writing. I've often wondered what the difference is between a cluster set and a rest pause, and now I know. I love the topic of increasing training intensity, and you have experience backed by practice.

Regarding the "ZMR" method: did I understand correctly?

- the beginning of the concentric phase is slow until 1/4 of the movement, and the remaining 3/4 is dynamic but controlled, with a momentary contraction at the peak, followed by a slow eccentric phase? Is that what you mean by "slow THEN accelerate?"

 

[Big Dave Smith]

I'm asking because I like what you're writing. I've often wondered what the difference is between a cluster set and a rest pause, and now I know. I love the topic of increasing training intensity, and you have experience backed by practice.

Regarding the "ZMR" method: did I understand correctly?

- the beginning of the concentric phase is slow until 1/4 of the movement, and the remaining 3/4 is dynamic but controlled, with a momentary contraction at the peak, followed by a slow eccentric phase? Is that what you mean by "slow THEN accelerate?"

Yes. This is my favorite part of the method. Most people, even when they fully lengthen, try to blast the weight back in the other direction. A lot of the tension you want/need on the target muscle is reduced, and you use more weight than what’s needed.

I teach my clients with the metaphor of… Treat it like you’re driving with your grandma in the passenger’s seat, but you’re in a hurry. Ease into the traffic light, stop, and on green you slowly accelerate before you punch the gas so her head doesn’t whip back. When the light turns red again, slowly ease into the red light.

If you start lifting the weight slowly with the muscle you’re trying to train… get at least a few inches in, then try make the rep fast. You almost can’t.