RIP Matt Duvall just 40 years old

[Simpllyhuge]

So what's abuse? What's a nice lower dose?

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Well

So what's abuse? What's a nice lower dose?

What ever keeps your test levels at about 800

 

[maldorf]

What ever keeps your test levels at about 800

Yeah, for me that is 100 mg/wk from my doc and that is the norm.

 

[richiec]

I trained under Phil in the past, he gave it to me straight! He knew what my goals were and never once pushed anything on me, not even remotely. He suggested things that would help get me there faster, but said that he would advocate the slower approach given the situation I was in (new son married for a yr etc) and overall goal.

Phil has never been a guy to deny that you are as big as your dose, he's said it many times before. I, for one, like that some guys who have "been there done that" don't "preach" high doses. Rather, a slow and steady growth phase type usage to get to where you want to be. Some guys want to get there faster, this can pose a risk to ones health and these guys point that out. And the "vets" have agreed that the more you take the bigger you'll be, it isn't rocket science. They just point out the hazards of it, I guess they are being Debbie Downers

In the end, do what you want to do.

 

[Simpllyhuge]

So a test level of 800 with no blasting at all light blasts at all?

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Well

So a test level of 800 with no blasting at all light blasts at all?

Some need 100 mg weekly to get to 800...........some need 500 a week to get to 800.......it also depends on HOW you administer it.......I have my clients do it a certain way as to maximize the MGs.

 

[maldorf]

Some need 100 mg weekly to get to 800...........some need 500 a week to get to 800.......it also depends on HOW you administer it.......I have my clients do it a certain way as to maximize the MGs.

Can't imagine anyone need 500g/wk to get to that unless the test is underdosed badly. All I do is 100 mg/wk IM in my glute once a week and I am done.

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Yes

Can't imagine anyone need 500g/wk to get to that unless the test is underdosed badly. All I do is 100 mg/wk IM in my glute once a week and I am done.

Well, speak to an endocrinologist and he will tel you everyone is different......it does not matter how much it takes, it just matters what it takes to keep it at that level. You are lucky all you need is 100mg........for the majority that would do very little

 

[maldorf]

Well, speak to an endocrinologist and he will tel you everyone is different......it does not matter how much it takes, it just matters what it takes to keep it at that level. You are lucky all you need is 100mg........for the majority that would do very little

Yeah, I see an endo and 200 mg/2 weeks is the normal dose and puts most guys at about 600 or so, I usually average near 800 on that. I might go out on a limb here but I think its safe to say that nobody on this earth needs 5x the normal dose to just hit 800, I don't think that's physiologically possible if the test is dosed correctly.

 

[rutger177]

Yeah, I see an endo and 200 mg/2 weeks is the normal dose and puts most guys at about 600 or so, I usually average near 800 on that. I might go out on a limb here but I think its safe to say that nobody on this earth needs 5x the normal dose to just hit 800, I don't think that's physiologically possible if the test is dosed correctly.

Maybe they start pushing the plunger before they stick the needle in!

 

[HELLA SWOLE]

I feel the need to post in this thread.

I was one of those guys who ended up with an issue and quit gear (before it quit me). I do not contribute and warn people as much as Malforf does here, I mainly just lurk and read threads to keep up my nutrition / training knowledge. I commend Maldorf for what he does. I feel the need to add my two cents now b/c of all the ignorance that is being displayed. It's not even ignorance, it's actually just guys flat out choosing to ignore and justify the risks they expose themselves to.

I started gear at 19. Just low dose 10 week cycles, 2 times per year. Then I went to 16 week cycles. I then competed at 21yrs old after an off season high weight of 252lbs (6'1"). I am 28 now (hard to believe that was almost 7 yrs ago). I competed at 210ish then. I then went on gear for about 10 months straight after the show - blast and cruise method, the cruise being just 200mg test. I got up to 260 that was leaner than my previous year 252 offseason weight and was well on my way to competing that coming year at probably 218-225 ish at 22 yrs old.

I ended up going to the doctor due to stomach pain where they found an inflamed appendix (unrelated to gear of course). In a subsequent CT scan, they found a 6cm benign tumor in my liver. A hepatic adenoma - same thing Baldnazi had. THIS was directly related to gear and the doc knew it. Hepatic adenomas are actually very common, but they are very small and not worrisome to doctors unless they are large. But they don't get to as large as mine was without some kind of hormonal influence (ie: gear). If I kept on, it would likely keep growing and rupture - like Bladnazi's did and require major surgery.

I said screw that. Quit gear cold turkey. Luckily I was still young, but I said no way I am going to screw up that bad. There were more important things in life to me. I noticed I had been becoming obsessed with bodybuilding and sacrificing things in life that should have been more important. The whole experience caused me to refocus my life and I now have more balance.

I am clean for 6-7 yrs now. I still train and eat right, but not with the same obsession I did before. It comes and goes in spurts now. I am now 28 yrs old, 225 lbs at my heaviest (not sloppy at all), and a solid, well conditioned 205 lbs at my lowest. I may bench about 315, squat 405-455 ATG, and I deadlifted 450lbs X 3 a few weeks ago. When I was gearing, I did all those same weight for an extra 8-10 reps. I am not huge, but I get comments on a regular basis about being in good shape, and being a "big dude" - albeit not like I did when I was 260, but it still happens.

I feel like I am a smart guy. I did ALL my research on the gear and how it interacted. Best way to combat sides w/ cardio, diet, and supplements. As well as monitor my health with quarterly blood work and physicals. In doing this, I was able to justify having an HDL of just SEVEN a week before my contest. FOr those that don't know - that is a horrid number for your "good" cholesterol.

It was a good 1 year or so before I felt normal again hormonally and accept my physique future, but it was the best decision I ever made. I am much happier and more balanced now than I ever was before (just like I was BEFORE I started gear). I am still a sexy son of a bitch, have a great job, and I just got engaged to a beautiful woman who I likely wouldn't have been able to "get" had I been stuck in the same lifestyle I was before.

I am not saying I am judging anybody who does gear, but it is laughable to me how much a lot of you just choose to stick your heads into the sand. You can obviously have a balanced life on gear as well - there are many people who do that here, but those people are probably taking the necessary steps to protect themselves health wise and not getting carried away. There are a lot of people on here (and in every day life) who are just flat out idiots. But then again, there are also some very intelligent folks here and they are not the ones who are doing it recklessly and believing that 270lb 40 yr old men who drop dead from heart attacks are due to "natural causes" or only because they were taking pain pills.....

Just my experience that I felt compelled to share....

 

[Simpllyhuge]

Thanks for the post hella swole. So did Orals do that to you liver or just injectables?

 

[HELLA SWOLE]

Thanks for the post hella swole. So did Orals do that to you liver or just injectables?

No telling for sure, but I would doubt it. I can't remember exact doses, but I don't think I took orals more than 3-4 times. I think my total doses were about 1.5g / week at their highest with everything counted together. I wasn't doing anything crazy. No GH.

 

[maldorf]

One of the warnings for taking prescription test is liver tumors, so it is a known effect.

Risks Of Testosterone Cypionate | LIVESTRONG.COM

Every 6 months I get a liver function test at my endo's office as well as all of the other blood work. So there is a risk from taking just 100 mg/wk, what kind of risk do you think you are taking when you take 10x that!

 

[maldorf]

No telling for sure, but I would doubt it. I can't remember exact doses, but I don't think I took orals more than 3-4 times. I think my total doses were about 1.5g / week at their highest with everything counted together. I wasn't doing anything crazy. No GH.

Just think what might have happened if you were on 10 IU a day of GH.

 

[Kaladryn]

One of the warnings for taking prescription test is liver tumors, so it is a known effect.

Risks Of Testosterone Cypionate | LIVESTRONG.COM

Every 6 months I get a liver function test at my endo's office as well as all of the other blood work. So there is a risk from taking just 100 mg/wk, what kind of risk do you think you are taking when you take 10x that!

Remember that liver tumors generally don't cause cellular damage, therefor there is no way to detect them on bloodwork, they don't raise liver enzymes. They are seen by the body as "health tissue" so the immune system doesn't attack them either, and the liver doesn't repair them.

 

[palumbus1217]

Remember that liver tumors generally don't cause cellular damage, therefor there is no way to detect them on bloodwork, they don't raise liver enzymes. They are seen by the body as "health tissue" so the immune system doesn't attack them either, and the liver doesn't repair them.

That's pretty scary...will an ultrasound pick it up?

 

[pryde]

No telling for sure, but I would doubt it. I can't remember exact doses, but I don't think I took orals more than 3-4 times. I think my total doses were about 1.5g / week at their highest with everything counted together. I wasn't doing anything crazy. No GH.

Hows the tumor these days? Not familiar with liver tumors and if they go away completely or not, etc.

 

[Kaladryn]

That's pretty scary...will an ultrasound pick it up?

Not sure, you would have to ask a doctor, probably. These aren't "real" tumors, they are just blood filled cysts, the risk is them bursting.

 

[maldorf]

Remember that liver tumors generally don't cause cellular damage, therefor there is no way to detect them on bloodwork, they don't raise liver enzymes. They are seen by the body as "health tissue" so the immune system doesn't attack them either, and the liver doesn't repair them.

Ugh, never thought of that before.