Secondary Adrenal Insufficiency

[nothuman]

@Sides Im not sure if you’re aware but when someone uses T3 only, their FT4 and TSH will lower to the point they shut down over time, but many people who use T3 want that to happen in order to feel better. Labs are a whole different beast on T3 only. Their FT3 will measure really high, like over 6 or so. The idea is to mainly go off body temperature to know if they’re feeling better again.

 

[nothuman]

I'm curious about the copper. Seems like it might be a bad idea to supplement especially in high doses. For example if you check the neurology section here:

Research Breakdown on Copper - Examine

examine.com

But I don't really know much about it. I checked it out awhile back because I read it boosted igf-1, but I was put off by the examine page.

Though I remember Poliquin saying it helped joint pain in some.

but then what are we supposed to do about a copper deficiency? I’m not sure if eating copious amounts of copper is more effective than copper supplementation. It’s tricky

 

[nothuman]

@nothuman thats interesting on your copper as well. Gonna get mine rechecked I think.

What was your saliva cortisol test like?

Is there anything that seemed to trigger all of this for you?

My saliva cortisol was 11 the last couple times. I’m doing another one in a matter of days along with another thyroid and iron panel, testosterone, etc

 

[nothuman]

Do y’all take DHEA and/or Pregnenolone? I started both at the same time for once last week. Hope it’s the right move but I worry about my progesterone being high.

 

[nothuman]

@swim15 good to see you took my advice and are reading up on Brownstein! I’m doing 50mg lugols iodine for the last month. Hard to know how much it’s helping but it’s a work in progress and I was deficient so I’m happy to be taking it. You should check out his YouTube videos on the subject.

 

[Sides]

@Sides Im not sure if you’re aware but when someone uses T3 only, their FT4 and TSH will lower to the point they shut down over time, but many people who use T3 want that to happen in order to feel better. Labs are a whole different beast on T3 only. Their FT3 will measure really high, like over 6 or so. The idea is to mainly go off body temperature to know if they’re feeling better again.

The shutdown of FT4 and TSH, and reliance on body temperature, would be OK if you are feeling better, but are you feeling better?

I'm asking honestly, not being snarky, because I don't have the answers. I do know that I tried using T3 only, and it seems to have ended up making me feel worse. In February, my FT3 was 4.9, FT4 was 0.8, and TSH was 0.38, and I felt much worse, with constant ups and downs. So I weaned myself off the T3 and have been trying to restart my own thyroid levels, which is not going well either.

If I remember correctly, a few months ago when we were discussing taking T3 only, MyNameIsJeff, BlackBeard and other people were posting information, including the study below, on the necessity of taking T4 as well. But I do know that different protocols work better for different people.

All I do know is that I don't have the answers yet myself.

Thyroid Hormones, T3 and T4, in the Brain

Thyroid hormones (THs) are essential for fetal and post-natal nervous system development and also play an important role in the maintenance of adult brain function. Of the two major THs, T[4] (3,5,3′,5′-tetraiodo--thyronine) is classically ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[nothuman]

The shutdown of FT4 and TSH, and reliance on body temperature, would be OK if you are feeling better, but are you feeling better?

I'm asking honestly, not being snarky, because I don't have the answers. I do know that I tried using T3 only, and it seems to have ended up making me feel worse. In February, my FT3 was 4.9, FT4 was 0.8, and TSH was 0.38, and I felt much worse, with constant ups and downs. So I weaned myself off the T3 and have been trying to restart my own thyroid levels, which is not going well either.

If I remember correctly, a few months ago when we were discussing taking T3 only, MyNameIsJeff, BlackBeard and other people were posting information, including the study below, on the necessity of taking T4 as well. But I do know that different protocols work better for different people.

All I do know is that I don't have the answers yet myself.

Thyroid Hormones, T3 and T4, in the Brain

Thyroid hormones (THs) are essential for fetal and post-natal nervous system development and also play an important role in the maintenance of adult brain function. Of the two major THs, T[4] (3,5,3′,5′-tetraiodo--thyronine) is classically ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ideally, a combo of T3 and T4 is the best thing to try at first.

Me, personally? No, I’m not feeling better yet on T3 only, other than the fact my brain fog isn’t as bad. My temperature isn’t optimal yet, and my FT4 and TSH aren’t fully suppressed yet, so I still need to give it time. I’m just talking about in general when people use T3 only. It should only be attempted if NDT doesn’t work. I don’t think T4 only is ever the right treatment from what I hear. I’ll let you know if I improve though.

It could take up to 12 weeks to feel better on T3 only if reverse T3 is really high, like mine was

 

[Pericles]

You need to get a sleep study. Taking some of these meds can kill you if you do have a severe case of OSA. Medications are a bandaid and in some cases a dagger

 

[Crazy_jay]

Funny this week people very close to me all told me they've come off recently and how much better they feel, likely all for different reasons but the sentiment remains the same.

This is me. Minus sex drive, strength and recovery from workouts, I feel better off everything. That's with undetectable estrogen and test levels at 60(range 264-916).

I am hyper sensitive to estrogen. Elevated but in range, I'll sleep all day and never feel rested. Have no sex drive, no night wood, grumpy, no drive. Dr Rand McClain recommends keeping estradiol between 15-20 and that's where I feel best but not on elevated levels of test. Impossible for me to dial in on higher test levels.

I scale test dose way back. On 150mg week, my total t will be in 700s but free t will be high out of range.

 

[swim15]

This is an old thread and have since solved the mysteries of what was going on - mercury exposure per my last thread being one of them.

Interestingly enough I came off about 6 months ago in the second week of April after being on for 9 years. I had hormone labs pulled the first week of June about 6 weeks later and test level was in the 400’s with normal LH/FSH and e2. Surprised me big time but I’m planning on HRT for life anyways so I got back on with just scrotal cream a couple months later to keep things stable.

Guessing things will return to normal after I treat the known issues

 

[globo]

After a two year long battle with ulcerative colitis I finally have it mostly under wraps. In remission with all lingering inflammation under control as far as I can tell. Targeted biofilms, major diet changes, the works. Currently have my diet down, loads of herbs, spices, and natural anti-inflammatory's.

It seems like I’ve got most of my issues squared away which were due to lingering inflammation that didn't show on CRP or ESR blood levels. However, I’m out of ideas on the things I'm dealing with now so thought I’d just get some thoughts. I know we have some incredibly knowledgeable memes like Stewie and others on here.


Current - suffering all the symptoms of adrenal insufficiency.
That's constant fatigue, no sex drive, poor sexual function, days to recover from workouts (from physical soreness but also from mental tiredness , ie lack of 'gumption'), couldn't wake up in the morning and had a hard time falling asleep at night. Just generally messed up sleep cycles. Muscle aches, more frequent urination, overly sore joints...those are the major ones.

I've exhausted docs and going to look into some naturopathic functional medicine providers but have already dished out a lot of $$ over this so want to be as specific as I can be.


Bloods - would have more but its been like pulling teeth to get them drawn and tried to go through docs because it was all free with insurance.

Pregnenolone: 29 (22-237)
DHEA-S: 200.1 (85-690) ------ previous draw 2 years ago 430

Cortisol (8am) - 7.7 (range 5.4-18.5) ----- previous draws 13.5 and 15.8 2 and 3 years ago respectively (down ~50%)


TSH:
3.504 uIU/mL (range 0.34-4.2) ----- previous draws from a were 0.813 and 0.931 (~4x as high)

Free T4: 0.84 (range 0.58-1.70 – doesn’t list value but assuming ng/dl) ----- previous draw was 1.22 (range 0.61 - 1.12 ng/dL - ~50% lower)

Free T3:
Free T3: 3.4 (range 2.50 – 3.90) ----- previous draw was 3.1 (range 2.3-4.2pg/ml)


Other random draws from a couple months ago were
Prolactin: 12.3 (range 2.6-13.1)
Copper: 61 (80-180)



Have been supplementing copper (no zinc). Zinc level was normal. Vitamin D, B, and folate are all at the high end of the range. CBC and CMP's are all normal. HRT is ~37.5mg TE and 15mg TP 5 days a week, so about 275mg. Estrogen runs high but haven't checked it super recently. No symptoms and have always felt like trash running an AI. Last estradiol (sensitive) 8 months ago was 99pg/mL (range <29). Felt great then and that was on about 350mg per week.


I added 25mcg T3 this past Friday after I got the thyroid labs because I suspected subclinical hypothyrodism and after about 3-4 days it helped my energy tremendously. I didn't feel like dI had tons of drive per se but I could wake up in the morning and didn't want to nap all the time. After 3-4 days though I was overstimulated/wired which I have never had happen with T3 before even at higher doses in my competing days. Doc actually wrote a script and gonna play with 15-20mcg per day. While the thyroid takes care of the energy problem to an extent its weird to have energy but not really feel like doing a lot. None of the drive to do things and the general alpha-male 'come at me' with life feeling that I have had most of my life. No general sense of well-being and motivation I guess.


At this point I have trialed/error-ed and recorded responses to a lot of things from caffeine, to DHEA, to amphetamine and other supplements trying to narrow things down.
- All stimulants make me feel wired and on edge whereas they used to make me feel great from adderall to coffee
- Pregnenolone makes me feel stimed out and wired (even just 10mg) even though it used to make me feel good/focused
- DHEA is unnoticeable entirely at any dose
- Holy basil helps some at night as far as sleep and waking up a little easier
- Melatonin (SL) works well with getting to sleep (until I added T3 and then doesn't work at all)
- Dianabol used to increase energy and sex drive but no longer does
- Cabergoline used to help but doesn't do anything noticeable and haven't used it in a while
- Yohimbine or DMAA don't help sex drive at all like they used to
- Maca does nothing

Have tried lots of other things but those are the ones that come to mind immediately. Just tired of low energy and zero sex drive at 26.



My next thought right is dropping the T3 for a few days and already have a lab to do a 4x daily saliva cortisol test to measure the rhythm. Then check progesterone probably.

Sorry, not really a TLDR. Will answer any questions I can about labs or symptoms. Any thoughts on next moves?

I know this is a bit old post but I'm in the exact same situation with the same symptoms, how are you now? A feedback would be helpful

 

[globo]

Looks like you are suffering with the same thing as me. I just received cortisol saliva results yesterday and they're just as awful as they were six months ago. It's really defeating

My DHEA and pregnenolone are also low. I started taking them again. My progesterone is high. I am on the fence about using an AI to keep e2 and progesterone down to normal range. If it was just about lowering E2, I wouldn't do it, but I worry about high progesterone effects.

My copper is also low. Seeing yours low makes me wonder what the connection is. My zinc was on the low side too, so I am now taking 100mg zinc and 10mg copper, which seems high but I cant afford those deficiencies.

I'm currently on 75mcg T3 a day. My FT3 level was 3.0 off thyroid medication, which is not adequate. Yours was a bit better than mine. I did successfully get my reverse T3 down recently.

I just don't know what else to do to get my cortisol up. It just seems impossible. I can't get an ACTH stim test during covid, which drives me insane. I need to know if I developed AI. My morning cortisol on a blood test was 11, ACTH and aldosterone are within normal, but renin is high.

It's impossible to live like this and no doctor has been properly trained enough to treat it because there is no middle ground between healthy and adrenal insufficiency to them.

Hi, I read that you also had the same problem, how are you now? How did you solve it? taking exogenous cortisone? Thanks

 

[nothuman]

Hi, I read that you also had the same problem, how are you now? How did you solve it? taking exogenous cortisone? Thanks

Oh gosh seeing my old post really takes me back to a shitty point on my journey.

What I learned is I didn’t need hydrocortisone. I did take it up to 30mg per day for about a year and a half but was able to stop no problem and no adrenal suppression. I felt no different at all whether I took it or not. I just needed a better dosing strategy of thyroid hormone. When I have my dosing 100% dialed in, I feel normal.

I have no adrenal gland disfunction at all (thankfully). I went down a lot of rabbits holes but landed on it only being a thyroid thing.

 

[globo]

Oh gosh seeing my old post really takes me back to a shitty point on my journey.

What I learned is I didn’t need hydrocortisone. I did take it up to 30mg per day for about a year and a half but was able to stop no problem and no adrenal suppression. I felt no different at all whether I took it or not. I just needed a better dosing strategy of thyroid hormone. When I have my dosing 100% dialed in, I feel normal.

I have no adrenal gland disfunction at all (thankfully). I went down a lot of rabbits holes but landed on it only being a thyroid thing.

I understand you well, I'm going through that... can I ask you what symptoms you had in the past when you also started hydrocortisone? Have you ever had muscle twitching/spasms?

 

[Sully1234]

Hi, I read that you also had the same problem, how are you now? How did you solve it? taking exogenous cortisone? Thanks

I'm no expert but I dealth with this same issue and fucking moronic doctors for years.

First question - whats your diet?

My issue was "over training" combined with super low carb/low calorie diet.

 

[globo]

I'm no expert but I dealth with this same issue and fucking moronic doctors for years.

First question - whats your diet?

My issue was "over training" combined with super low carb/low calorie diet.

Hey, thanks for your reply.
I discovered I have mercury poisoning so now I have to work first on what I believe is having a really negative impact on my health.
No fucking doctor had ever thought about it but after hours and hours spent on the forum I did a test and found the answer…

 

[Sully1234]

Hey, thanks for your reply.
I discovered I have mercury poisoning so now I have to work first on what I believe is having a really negative impact on my health.
No fucking doctor had ever thought about it but after hours and hours spent on the forum I did a test and found the answer…

What is the source of this?

 

[globo]

After a two year long battle with ulcerative colitis I finally have it mostly under wraps. In remission with all lingering inflammation under control as far as I can tell. Targeted biofilms, major diet changes, the works. Currently have my diet down, loads of herbs, spices, and natural anti-inflammatory's.

It seems like I’ve got most of my issues squared away which were due to lingering inflammation that didn't show on CRP or ESR blood levels. However, I’m out of ideas on the things I'm dealing with now so thought I’d just get some thoughts. I know we have some incredibly knowledgeable memes like Stewie and others on here.


Current - suffering all the symptoms of adrenal insufficiency.
That's constant fatigue, no sex drive, poor sexual function, days to recover from workouts (from physical soreness but also from mental tiredness , ie lack of 'gumption'), couldn't wake up in the morning and had a hard time falling asleep at night. Just generally messed up sleep cycles. Muscle aches, more frequent urination, overly sore joints...those are the major ones.

I've exhausted docs and going to look into some naturopathic functional medicine providers but have already dished out a lot of $$ over this so want to be as specific as I can be.


Bloods - would have more but its been like pulling teeth to get them drawn and tried to go through docs because it was all free with insurance.

Pregnenolone: 29 (22-237)
DHEA-S: 200.1 (85-690) ------ previous draw 2 years ago 430

Cortisol (8am) - 7.7 (range 5.4-18.5) ----- previous draws 13.5 and 15.8 2 and 3 years ago respectively (down ~50%)


TSH:
3.504 uIU/mL (range 0.34-4.2) ----- previous draws from a were 0.813 and 0.931 (~4x as high)

Free T4: 0.84 (range 0.58-1.70 – doesn’t list value but assuming ng/dl) ----- previous draw was 1.22 (range 0.61 - 1.12 ng/dL - ~50% lower)

Free T3:
Free T3: 3.4 (range 2.50 – 3.90) ----- previous draw was 3.1 (range 2.3-4.2pg/ml)


Other random draws from a couple months ago were
Prolactin: 12.3 (range 2.6-13.1)
Copper: 61 (80-180)



Have been supplementing copper (no zinc). Zinc level was normal. Vitamin D, B, and folate are all at the high end of the range. CBC and CMP's are all normal. HRT is ~37.5mg TE and 15mg TP 5 days a week, so about 275mg. Estrogen runs high but haven't checked it super recently. No symptoms and have always felt like trash running an AI. Last estradiol (sensitive) 8 months ago was 99pg/mL (range <29). Felt great then and that was on about 350mg per week.


I added 25mcg T3 this past Friday after I got the thyroid labs because I suspected subclinical hypothyrodism and after about 3-4 days it helped my energy tremendously. I didn't feel like dI had tons of drive per se but I could wake up in the morning and didn't want to nap all the time. After 3-4 days though I was overstimulated/wired which I have never had happen with T3 before even at higher doses in my competing days. Doc actually wrote a script and gonna play with 15-20mcg per day. While the thyroid takes care of the energy problem to an extent its weird to have energy but not really feel like doing a lot. None of the drive to do things and the general alpha-male 'come at me' with life feeling that I have had most of my life. No general sense of well-being and motivation I guess.


At this point I have trialed/error-ed and recorded responses to a lot of things from caffeine, to DHEA, to amphetamine and other supplements trying to narrow things down.
- All stimulants make me feel wired and on edge whereas they used to make me feel great from adderall to coffee
- Pregnenolone makes me feel stimed out and wired (even just 10mg) even though it used to make me feel good/focused
- DHEA is unnoticeable entirely at any dose
- Holy basil helps some at night as far as sleep and waking up a little easier
- Melatonin (SL) works well with getting to sleep (until I added T3 and then doesn't work at all)
- Dianabol used to increase energy and sex drive but no longer does
- Cabergoline used to help but doesn't do anything noticeable and haven't used it in a while
- Yohimbine or DMAA don't help sex drive at all like they used to
- Maca does nothing

Have tried lots of other things but those are the ones that come to mind immediately. Just tired of low energy and zero sex drive at 26.



My next thought right is dropping the T3 for a few days and already have a lab to do a 4x daily saliva cortisol test to measure the rhythm. Then check progesterone probably.

Sorry, not really a TLDR. Will answer any questions I can about labs or symptoms. Any thoughts on next moves?

Hey, I'm having the same symptoms as you (frequent urination, muscle and bone ache) how did you get out of this situation and these symptoms? Did you find out what caused them?
Thanks!