Should I just come off?

[Deleted member 106824]

I started my 3rd cycle back on 8/25 trying out tren for the 1st time. 210 Test + 350 tren. Did this for 7 weeks with very disappointing results compared to my 2 previous cycles which involved OTC superdrol products and no or moderate test. I later found out from blood work and from 5-10 PMs that my gear was very underdosed (e.g. my total T was only 550 on 210mg test).

So I decided to accept that as basically cruise doses and extend my original 8 week cycle to 18-20 weeks. Took out the underdosed tren, ran the underdosed test at 1000mg to get a true 4-500mg and dbol at 25-50mg per day. Of course I got fake dbol and gained nothing from it lol, confirmed by the fact that my natural friend tried it for ~2 weeks working up to "75mg"/day and gained literally nothing. So lesson learned, get legit products

Finally I said OK I'll go on the OTC superdrol products again (super-dmz 2.0) for 4 weeks with the 4-500 test and finish with 4 weeks of just the 4-500 test. Well today was my last day of the super-dmz and although the gains were far better than on the underdosed injectables/fake dbol, its nothing crazy. I'm ahead of where I was strength wise from my last cycle but only maybe 10lb or a few reps here and there, and I'm thinking if thats the case with the superdrol + test then finishing these last 4 weeks with just the test seems pointless, and that maybe my body just needs to kind of "reset" so I should just end the cycle now so I can start my next one sooner in 10-12 weeks and have a more effective 4 weeks of gaining then before I start my 12 week cut to get read for a vacation (which is what I'm trying to peak for).

So basically, do you guys agree on ending the cycle now, and any thoughts on the best way to go about it to have the best results by June? The beginning lack of results are pretty easily explainable by the underdosed gear but like I said even now it's nothing crazy. Back, my already strongest body part, has made the most improvements it seems...pressing exercises have always been the hardest for me to progress on. At this point after today's somewhat poor workout I'm thinking coming off to reset everything could potentially make the most sense in the long run.

As for diet, I am eating ~3200-3500 calories, almost entirely clean, gaining weight just not a ton of quality weight. Basic bodybuilding type training that has worked well for me in the past. ~6'0 203lb as of this morning. I have had people suggest blasting and cruising but with me being 21 I don't know if I'm ready for that and in the past I haven't had trouble maintaining gains while off as long as I don't try to cut naturally.

 

[ErnieTaylor]

I know how frustrating things like this can be...Let's face it - no one wants to fine out that they are using underdosed or bunk gear.

I think your age and cycling history is a big issue here.

Less than 40? I would say come off with a PCT and try again.

Over 40 and have many cycles under you belt? I would consider TRT or cruising. Of course you should get blood work drawn to make sure everything is in check.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I know how frustrating things like this can be...Let's face it - no one wants to fine out that they are using underdosed or bunk gear.

I think your age and cycling history is a big issue here.

Less than 40? I would say come off with a PCT and try again.

Over 40 and have many cycles under you belt? I would consider TRT or cruising. Of course you should get blood work drawn to make sure everything is in check.

Yea it was definitely very frustrating to find out I was on very underdosed gear. I was so psyched to try tren for the first time, reading about daily changes, and then every week being disappointed by the lack of results. Same with the Dbol, except that was completely fake. I don't like how bad superdrol is for me regarding lipids and liver enzymes, but at least I can count on it working.

Although I feel like being on for 9 weeks or so prior to the super-dmz, even though it was underdosed, caused my results from super-dmz to be less than expected. Like going from off to test + super-dmz would have been great but since I was on some gear already it seems like it made the effects of the super-dmz less than I thought it would. And like I said now that I'm only slowly making gains on the test+sdmz I would assume that my results on just test for the next 4 weeks would be slow enough to make it pretty much pointless, hence the idea to come off now so I could get started on my next cycle in mid february or so rather than mid march and hopefully have the added 4 weeks then be more effective than having the extra 4 weeks now...all to have the best end results by june. Would you agree?

Also I think I agree with the age thing, being 21 I have not had any issue recovering my T levels with standard PCT (natural T before cycling was ~450-500, after my 1st 4 week cycle using nolva for PCT I got it to 500 after a few months post cycle and after my 2nd cycle which was 10 weeks I got it to 650 using nolva + daa) and was able to maintain my gains until I tried cutting naturally and lost them lol so no more cutting naturally. I've been shut down for ~15 weeks at this point though, hopefully I can still recover as well. I'm definitely concerned that going from 4-500 test + 280 super-dmz to nothing could result in a big loss since the gains now are only moderate anyway.

 

[SL1CED]

I'd say get real gear and cruise on 100-125mg test a week for 6-10 weeks then re-do a cycle with real gear.

IIRC, you PM'd me before. You know where to look.

 

[smackthatAAS]

If you dont want to just blast/cruise ABSOLUTELY come off.

Otherwise stay on 100-200mg test per week. HCG and most likely Adex would be beneficail if you're going to cruise. If planning on coming off in the future make sure to use HCG/HMG.

Personal choice.

 

[Stupes]

I started my 3rd cycle back on 8/25 trying out tren for the 1st time. 210 Test + 350 tren. Did this for 7 weeks with very disappointing results compared to my 2 previous cycles which involved OTC superdrol products and no or moderate test. I later found out from blood work and from 5-10 PMs that my gear was very underdosed (e.g. my total T was only 550 on 210mg test).

So I decided to accept that as basically cruise doses and extend my original 8 week cycle to 18-20 weeks. Took out the underdosed tren, ran the underdosed test at 1000mg to get a true 4-500mg and dbol at 25-50mg per day. Of course I got fake dbol and gained nothing from it lol, confirmed by the fact that my natural friend tried it for ~2 weeks working up to "75mg"/day and gained literally nothing. So lesson learned, get legit products

Finally I said OK I'll go on the OTC superdrol products again (super-dmz 2.0) for 4 weeks with the 4-500 test and finish with 4 weeks of just the 4-500 test. Well today was my last day of the super-dmz and although the gains were far better than on the underdosed injectables/fake dbol, its nothing crazy. I'm ahead of where I was strength wise from my last cycle but only maybe 10lb or a few reps here and there, and I'm thinking if thats the case with the superdrol + test then finishing these last 4 weeks with just the test seems pointless, and that maybe my body just needs to kind of "reset" so I should just end the cycle now so I can start my next one sooner in 10-12 weeks and have a more effective 4 weeks of gaining then before I start my 12 week cut to get read for a vacation (which is what I'm trying to peak for).

So basically, do you guys agree on ending the cycle now, and any thoughts on the best way to go about it to have the best results by June? The beginning lack of results are pretty easily explainable by the underdosed gear but like I said even now it's nothing crazy. Back, my already strongest body part, has made the most improvements it seems...pressing exercises have always been the hardest for me to progress on. At this point after today's somewhat poor workout I'm thinking coming off to reset everything could potentially make the most sense in the long run.

As for diet, I am eating ~3200-3500 calories, almost entirely clean, gaining weight just not a ton of quality weight. Basic bodybuilding type training that has worked well for me in the past. ~6'0 203lb as of this morning. I have had people suggest blasting and cruising but with me being 21 I don't know if I'm ready for that and in the past I haven't had trouble maintaining gains while off as long as I don't try to cut naturally.

At your age I would come off - but if you are using just to look good on vacation then I wouldn't be using anything. Regardless - I would come off and then do a quick 8 weeker with short esters prior to June vacation.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I'd say get real gear and cruise on 100-125mg test a week for 6-10 weeks then re-do a cycle with real gear.

IIRC, you PM'd me before. You know where to look.

Hey Sl1ced, I do remember our conversations, I have most of them saved actually. I appreciate the help.

It sucks dealing with underdosed/fake gear. Having said that, the super-dmz is legit and should be pretty strong. I just weighed in this morning, down a pound even though I ate a lot yesterday and measurements are down a bit. Admittedly last night I was dehydrated/up late with someone but nevertheless I certainly didn't make any progress and I don't know how thats possible given I'm not that big and am on some decent compounds. I feel like before when I was taking SD orals it was pretty much a guarantee that every time I went into the gym I'd make significant gains on my lifts....right now it's been a struggle every time and I'm not sure if it's because I've been to one degree or another on too long or what.

Do you agree with the wash out period allowing more effectiveness later? It makes sense to me, but then again you have a ton of guys blasting almost all the time and making gains so I don't know. It's just so odd to me how lackluster these results are.

If you dont want to just blast/cruise ABSOLUTELY come off.

Otherwise stay on 100-200mg test per week. HCG and most likely Adex would be beneficail if you're going to cruise. If planning on coming off in the future make sure to use HCG/HMG.

Personal choice.

Absolutely come off, as in you do feel like at this point continuing the cycle is pointless? I wish I had some explanation as to why this is happening. My diet and training is pretty much the same as always, healthy and generally effective for me.

Btw, I'm on 25mcg T3 too, but I can't see that hurting gains at all

I think HCG could be good if cruising, which is another reason I'm kind of against blasting and cruising now....more expenses lol

At your age I would come off - but if you are using just to look good on vacation then I wouldn't be using anything. Regardless - I would come off and then do a quick 8 weeker with short esters prior to June vacation.

I'm definitely not just using AAS for a vacation, I'd just like to peak for one since I've never been below 11-12%...I'd like to get to a true 7-8% for once. Also if I just do 8 weeks before the vacation and come off now then I would be off for 18-20 weeks which seems like way too long

 

[Animalattack]

If your under 40 get some PCT and clean out and recylce, if of 40 small dose of test and cruise.

AA

 

[Wolfpack]

Of course I got fake dbol and gained nothing from it lol, confirmed by the fact that my natural friend tried it for ~2 weeks working up to "75mg"/day and gained literally nothing. So lesson learned, get legit products

He decided to jump to the "dark side" just to help YOU confirm you have bad gear?

IMO you just don't want to come off, you want a reason and justification to stay on.

On my prescribed 200mg/wk test cyp my test levels were just over 500 and I doubt the pharmacy sold me fake/underdosed testosterone.

 

[smackthatAAS]

"Absolutely come off, as in you do feel like at this point continuing the cycle is pointless? I wish I had some explanation as to why this is happening. My diet and training is pretty much the same as always, healthy and generally effective for me.

Btw, I'm on 25mcg T3 too, but I can't see that hurting gains at all

I think HCG could be good if cruising, which is another reason I'm kind of against blasting and cruising now....more expenses lol"

How long has it been that you've technically been on/shut down? 20 weeks? Then yes come off. I dont doubt recovery will be difficult.

You could keep going while running HCG to get HPTA running properly again. THEN come off to make recovery easier...

 

[Deleted member 106824]

He decided to jump to the "dark side" just to help YOU confirm you have bad gear?

He had done an oral cycle before just not for awhile, he took the dbol for ~2 weeks with literally no gains then within a couple days on the super-dmz he gained ~5lb.

IMO you just don't want to come off, you want a reason and justification to stay on.

On my prescribed 200mg/wk test cyp my test levels were just over 500 and I doubt the pharmacy sold me fake/underdosed testosterone.

lol is that a joke? I specifically started this thread asking if people agreed that I should change my original plan of continuing the cycle to stop the cycle completely saying I think it makes sense, and that at my age I don't want to blast and cruise yet....and you conclude I want to stay on?

It seems most are agreeing with me that ending the cycle now makes sense. So I will. If gains just go to complete shit I may consider the idea of blasting and cruising but for now I want to see how recovery goes coming completely off goes. I just wish I could explain this odd lack of results....like what is going on with my body to stop the gains and maybe just sticking to shorter cycles/blasts in the future would be more effective for my body

 

[Deleted member 106824]

"Absolutely come off, as in you do feel like at this point continuing the cycle is pointless? I wish I had some explanation as to why this is happening. My diet and training is pretty much the same as always, healthy and generally effective for me.

Btw, I'm on 25mcg T3 too, but I can't see that hurting gains at all

I think HCG could be good if cruising, which is another reason I'm kind of against blasting and cruising now....more expenses lol"

How long has it been that you've technically been on/shut down? 20 weeks? Then yes come off. I dont doubt recovery will be difficult.

You could keep going while running HCG to get HPTA running properly again.l

15 weeks at this point. Thursday night will have been my last Test E injection and today will be my last dose of Super-DMZ so I guess I'll be able to start PCT in about 12 days or so. It sucks because even though it was underdosed I was definitely shut down the entire time so I can imagine recovery being difficult. Having said that I recovered completely fine at my 1st cycle (4 weeks) and 2nd cycle (10 weeks) with nothing but standard PCT pretty much so I'd like to see how I recover from this without HCG added in. Also at this point it would take at least 1-2 weeks for me to get it so a little too late at this point.

Really hoping I can at the very least maintain what I have until the next cycle, ideally gain some as I was able to do for ~1 month or so after ending my previous cycles. Although in those cases I was gaining faster at the end of the cycles than I am now.

 

[iceman74]

Super DMZ 2.0 does not have Superdrol in it. It was reformulated before the ban and Methylstenbolone was used to replace the Superdrol due to the fact that M-Sten is still legal (for now). Perhaps that will help explain why you aren't getting SD type gains this time around.

 

[saps]

I'm not really going to add to the come off or not issue that's been addressed and ultimately every one of us must make our one choices to cycle vs blast and cruise etc.
I will remind pumped340 and all how things work in the aas game with respect to dosing and gains. If you take Mr. Hypothetical and he weighs 180lbs with a 16" arm and a 250lb bench press, put him on 500mg of test for 10 weeks and he turns into a 200lber with 17.5" arms and a 300lb bench. If he cycles off and does the PCT thing [or even if he cruises to a lesser extent] he will eventually lose some of that size and strength, law of the jungle, whatever. What we all must remember is on his next cycle/blast if he does another 10 weeks of 500mg of test he should not expect another 20lb gain, 1.5" on arms and 50lb on bench. This is where most guys get confused/frustrated/disappointed. He should really only expect to return to the levels he previously achieved with 500mg/wk, perhaps a little bit more since he hopefully was starting out higher than the first one.
This is the inevitable reason for escalating doses. If one could gain 20lbs every 10 week 500mg cycle then Phil Heath would still just be on 500mg/wk.
Now yes, yes there are variables of course and training and diet matter and gh and slin can alter these numbers somewhat as well. But the point largely remains the same. But 9 out of 10 of us will learn we can achieve a certain size and strength levels on a certain dose level. To extend that level you must exceed whatever dose level got you there. Again yes this is oversimplified and not absolute but often times over simplifying something can be a good thing in this gear game. I'm one of many on record saying it is very possible to maintain the gains of gram+ blasts on 200mg a week for months. But still to forge into uncharted waters you really gotta thing about using more stuff that what took you to whatever you wanna gauge, arm size, bench, weight whatever.
Its the old twins example. Put two twins on the same program of lifting and eating but give one twin twice the aas of the other. Only a fool would not expect the inevitable outcome.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Super DMZ 2.0 does not have Superdrol in it. It was reformulated before the ban and Methylstenbolone was used to replace the Superdrol due to the fact that M-Sten is still legal (for now). Perhaps that will help explain why you aren't getting SD type gains this time around.

Correct. I was wondering myself if that could be part of the reason but most of the reviews I've seen have had people claiming similar results. My friend who tried the dbol and switched to the super-dmz got very solid results from just 12 days of it, but it was basically all regained size and strength.

Just took measurements, literally no growth since starting the super-dmz + higher test (500mg) at least not in my arms. Back looks wider and thicker. Legs are the same. Arms only up 1/4in from the very start of the cycle 15 weeks ago. Damn what a waste.

I'm not really going to add to the come off or not issue that's been addressed and ultimately every one of us must make our one choices to cycle vs blast and cruise etc.
I will remind pumped340 and all how things work in the aas game with respect to dosing and gains. If you take Mr. Hypothetical and he weighs 180lbs with a 16" arm and a 250lb bench press, put him on 500mg of test for 10 weeks and he turns into a 200lber with 17.5" arms and a 300lb bench. If he cycles off and does the PCT thing [or even if he cruises to a lesser extent] he will eventually lose some of that size and strength, law of the jungle, whatever. What we all must remember is on his next cycle/blast if he does another 10 weeks of 500mg of test he should not expect another 20lb gain, 1.5" on arms and 50lb on bench. This is where most guys get confused/frustrated/disappointed. He should really only expect to return to the levels he previously achieved with 500mg/wk, perhaps a little bit more since he hopefully was starting out higher than the first one.
This is the inevitable reason for escalating doses. If one could gain 20lbs every 10 week 500mg cycle then Phil Heath would still just be on 500mg/wk.
Now yes, yes there are variables of course and training and diet matter and gh and slin can alter these numbers somewhat as well. But the point largely remains the same. But 9 out of 10 of us will learn we can achieve a certain size and strength levels on a certain dose level. To extend that level you must exceed whatever dose level got you there. Again yes this is oversimplified and not absolute but often times over simplifying something can be a good thing in this gear game. I'm one of many on record saying it is very possible to maintain the gains of gram+ blasts on 200mg a week for months. But still to forge into uncharted waters you really gotta thing about using more stuff that what took you to whatever you wanna gauge, arm size, bench, weight whatever.
Its the old twins example. Put two twins on the same program of lifting and eating but give one twin twice the aas of the other. Only a fool would not expect the inevitable outcome.

Hey Saps, always appreciate the input. You've mentioned this before and I definitely agree that if you max out your gains on a given dosage and then come off, you really can't expect to get too far past that next time on the same dosage. Thing is though, I would be surprised if I was truly maxed out on these doses. For example last fall before I started AAS I was 191 or so, deadlifted 500, benched 3x245, DB benched 6x105 or so, front squatted maybe 10x205. Arms at 16in or so. Now at the end of this 3rd cycle almost a year later my best deadlift was 5x475, low incline bench 5x260, low incline DB bench 8x110, front squat 6x270, arms are 16.5 or so and I'm 202 this morning fatter than the 191. Clearly some progress but for a year including 3 cycles it doesn't seem too good and more relevant to your point I would hope this is not the max I could get out of ~750mg or so. The test dosage is at best an estimate though, I need to use a better source next time as I'm sure that can make a huge difference.

Best gains were definitely on MonsterPlexx which was 22.5mg/day superdrol, 22.5mg/day DMZ, 45mg/day Halodrol and 60mg/day Max LMG (yes, crazy lol, all I had at the time which a friend gave me) making the weekly dosage 1050mg and of compounds which are all stronger than test. So it definitely makes sense that those results would be better than my current doses but I would think that's assuming I maxed out those doses right? Which I can't imagine I did given the moderate gains in the long run a year later. Even in the spring on ~250 test and the original super-dmz (280mg) I was making gains pretty much every workout while cutting on ~2400 calories and 50mcg T3 (whereas with the monster plexx I was bulking with ~3500 calories and no T3). So I don't know if there really is such a big difference between the super-dmz original and 2.0 or what but it seems unlikely that it could be that much of a difference.

Which is why I was thinking the "wash out" period might make sense, like maybe being on this long my body is coming up with ways to fight any more progress? I'm just concerned about losing a lot since in the past when I came off I was still making good gains and continued to do so for a few weeks (another topic we've talked about) but in this case if I'm barely gaining while on cycle I could see being off causing issues.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Bump


Also, Short cycles / good gains - less sides | www.silownia.net I thought this was a good article

I have 27 weeks before this vacation, I was thinking doing something like
4 off/cruising
4 blasting while gaining
4 off/cruising
6 blasting while cutting
4 off/cruising
6 blasting while cutting

With the idea being that I woudn't run into the issues of the blasts ever becoming ineffective like what seemed to happen to me with this longer cycle, and I'm only ever off/cruising for 4 weeks so not enough to lose much, then coming in to the vacation as lean as possible and having the last week of the blast be during the vacation to take advantage of the rebound.

Open to anyone's thoughts on this. Regardless of if the non-blasting time is off or cruising. And it keeps time on close to time off. After this I'd like to be a bit more conservative but I've never been below 11-12% bf in my life and would love to come in to this vacation at a true 7-8% then after that be ok with slower gains and a more conservative approach as long as I stay relatively lean.