Some thoughts on ketogenic diets (keto) with combined use of Growth Hormone (rhGH)

[Tomgrass]

From protocols i have seen you do it on the load day and day after as well. This will speed up the process extremly fast

 

[b-boy]

From protocols i have seen you do it on the load day and day after as well. This will speed up the process extremly fast

This ^^^^

 

[Type-IIx]

As a side, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on the use of low-dose DNP (say, <100mg/day) in this context, since DNP does have a tendency to deplete and push people into Ketosis.

I've pondered it a lot. Whereby on DNP you have to increase carbs slightly to avoid ketosis, and protein/fats are already bottomed out (so the deficit cannot be made up there), are you just breaking even on the increase in metabolism from DNP and creating no bigger deficit vs. no-DNP + a lower carb intake pre-ketosis?

Is it possible that when DNP is involved, it's better just accepting the Ketogenic state for a period?

All theoretical, as it's something that's extremely difficult to judge anecdotally.

This is interesting theoretically as well as practically.

So practically, my view is that if you're using DNP, the objective cannot be to build new muscle tissue (as ATP is going to be dramatically reduced: thus the energy state of the cell directs energy metabolism to catabolic processes).

As such, just use a - here we go again - minimal effective dose. So that means, don't go under 100 mg daily (no real justification; even at 100 - 200 mg daily, DNP is less efficacious as an insulin sensitizing/antidiabetic agent than aspirin in humans; and at 100 mg, expect a modest ~10% RMR increase [less in heavy bodybuilders]).

Certainly, a keto diet can rationally serve this objective: in an individual with a low b.f.%, with the use of MCTs, et cetera, keto can be used to really reduce those difficult to reduce fat depots like the lower back in men & the hips/thighs in women. DNP will make this all the more attainable (and we can "get in and get out," staving off longer-term muscle catabolism).

Theoretically the reason that DNP does lower blood glucose concentrations (but remember, it's a minor effect in humans) is by uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation ⇒ ↑↑O₂ consumption (reflects the increase in RMR) & ADP:ATP ratio, ↑lactate synthesis (the latter due to a compensatory ↑glycolysis due to low ATP, thereby ↑pyruvate [gycolysis end-product]) & ↓glucose (due to the ↑glycolysis): hence hyperlactacidemia is a serious concern with DNP use.

So yes: with DNP, keto makes sense (i.e., entering ketosis); anticatabolic agents that are selective in the intracellular compartment (androgens) make sense as well; the utility of rhGH here is complicated by its hyperglycemic and insulin resistance effects, but it certainly makes sense for longer-term adaptations to caloric restriction (i.e., ↓IGF-I): but again, the use of a burst or plateau busting tactic for short term "diet sprints" at already low body fat seems the most logical approach for DNP & keto.

 

[hevi-head]

This is interesting theoretically as well as practically.

So practically, my view is that if you're using DNP, the objective cannot be to build new muscle tissue (as ATP is going to be dramatically reduced: thus the energy state of the cell directs energy metabolism to catabolic processes).

As such, just use a - here we go again - minimal effective dose. So that means, don't go under 100 mg daily (no real justification; even at 100 - 200 mg daily, DNP is less efficacious as an insulin sensitizing/antidiabetic agent than aspirin in humans; and at 100 mg, expect a modest ~10% RMR increase [less in heavy bodybuilders]).

Certainly, a keto diet can rationally serve this objective: in an individual with a low b.f.%, with the use of MCTs, et cetera, keto can be used to really reduce those difficult to reduce fat depots like the lower back in men & the hips/thighs in women. DNP will make this all the more attainable (and we can "get in and get out," staving off longer-term muscle catabolism).

Theoretically the reason that DNP does lower blood glucose concentrations (but remember, it's a minor effect in humans) is by uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation ⇒ ↑↑O₂ consumption (reflects the increase in RMR) & ADP:ATP ratio, ↑lactate synthesis (the latter due to a compensatory ↑glycolysis due to low ATP, thereby ↑pyruvate [gycolysis end-product]) & ↓glucose (due to the ↑glycolysis): hence hyperlactacidemia is a serious concern with DNP use.

So yes: with DNP, keto makes sense (i.e., entering ketosis); anticatabolic agents that are selective in the intracellular compartment (androgens) make sense as well; the utility of rhGH here is complicated by its hyperglycemic and insulin resistance effects, but it certainly makes sense for longer-term adaptations to caloric restriction (i.e., ↓IGF-I): but again, the use of a burst or plateau busting tactic for short term "diet sprints" at already low body fat seems the most logical approach for DNP & keto.

Just curious on the duration when you mentioned “short term” and “diet sprints”?

 

[b-boy]

However what I would do before applying ckd I would spend 3-4 months at least doing pure keto( this is what I am gonna do). Reason for it is to learn body use ketones properly. Otherwise if you are not adapted fully then I think you just make this whole process harder. Probably you will praying for another carb day as body will struggle to get back to keto fast. You will be in a keto limbo. Ideally as fast as possible get back to keto but that comes with time. The longer you are fat adapted the sooner return to keto will come. However right now I see I am much fuller on 20 grams of carbs then 2 months ago. I think two more months and nobody will be able to guess on what type of fuel i rely.

If your hell bent on returning to ketosis after a load day as fast as possible then take 1-2 ius of insulin morning after last carb day.

 

[MR. BMJ]

Back around 99/2000, when I used to do a lot of CKD type plans, experimenting and such, I liked a 6'ish day low carb with a 1-1.5 day refeed period. I pretty much followed a BodyOpus plan, but I shortened the carb/refeed period a little. Like Bboy stated above, I would use inuslin (Humulin-R) if i was trying to get back into ketosis quickly. It didn't take much to speed it up for me at the time. I also used ALA a lot during that time during the week. I think a lot of my diet posts are probably, maybe, still at EF. That was a fun time. I was super busy in school, work, homework and had some crazy ex(s) during that period.

As the years went on, I stopped CKD dieting, and found I didn't have to go to such an extreme for the most part for my goals. It's fun to do though if you respond well to it, and don't mind eating that lifestyle.