Some thoughts on recent post about carbs pre and intra-workout

[mountaindog1]

I don't get into arguments or bash other coaches, not my style, but I did want to post a response to things said today about not having carbs pre or intra workout from a coach on facebook. His statement was pretty "absolute". It's not optimal. I wouldn't say my solution is optimal for everybody, but I would say the large majority of us who train hard would/do benefit from some carbs pre or intra or both.

Here is his thoughts, and I added mine afterwards..again I'm not bashing him, not my style, just rarely do I disagree this much with something as this..and this is just my opinion


Carbs during training inhibit GH release, and important fat burning hormone, that also has the function of rebuilding connective tissue.

JOHN: I think it is silly to worry about impacting GH release during training...worry about muscle growth and leave fat loss to other parts of the day and a big GH pulse to sleeping at night. You also won't see the IGF-1 benefit as fully as you would if carbs were present.


Carbs stimulates the production of insulin, however it also stimulates serotonin production, which tends to mellow out your training drive. Hence, you don’t put those extra kilos on the bars, or do those extra reps, which are the ones that really stimulate growth.

JOHN: I advise 25-35 grams of carbs in pre meal. If that makes you sleepy, you are REALLY sensitive to carbs...and if you add a tad bit of fat, as I suggest, glucose entry into bloodstream will be controlled, and you will not have a big insulin dump that makes you sleepy.


Carbs function by raising insulin lower cortisol. Most people immediately think. "Yahoo! I am more anabolic!" NOT. Research now points that cortisol is your friend during training. It is now believed to be the primary signal to induce hypertrophy response.

JOHN: Eating some carbs isn't going to kill all cortisol and the inflammatory effect....again this is pure silliness and extreme. I believe it is wise to limit muscle protein breakdown in the big picture (enabling easier muscle protein synthesis if right nutrients are present), this happens with insulin from carbs.


When you train for strength and/or power, you want maximum focus and drive. That depends on the neurotransmitters dopamine and acetyl-choline. Taking carbs before and during lowers those neurotransmitter levels, taking the wind out of your sales.

JOHN: See how you do 45 minutes into a brutal workout with no carbs in you for the day..good luck with that...


Who can handle the most quality work wins. Multiple sources of carnitines, BCAA’s, beta-alanine, citrulline malate will increase work capacity -

JOHN: beta alanine looks great on paper, but I have never seen it do anything substantial except make your face tingle...I get it for free, and don't bother with it. Same with carnitines...I'll stick with casein hydrolysate and HBCD thank you.

 

[double_barrel]

I don't get into arguments or bash other coaches, not my style, but I did want to post a response to things said today about not having carbs pre or intra workout from a coach on facebook. His statement was pretty "absolute". It's not optimal. I wouldn't say my solution is optimal for everybody, but I would say the large majority of us who train hard would/do benefit from some carbs pre or intra or both.

Here is his thoughts, and I added mine afterwards..again I'm not bashing him, not my style, just rarely do I disagree this much with something as this..and this is just my opinion


Carbs during training inhibit GH release, and important fat burning hormone, that also has the function of rebuilding connective tissue.

JOHN: I think it is silly to worry about impacting GH release during training...worry about muscle growth and leave fat loss to other parts of the day and a big GH pulse to sleeping at night. You also won't see the IGF-1 benefit as fully as you would if carbs were present.


Carbs stimulates the production of insulin, however it also stimulates serotonin production, which tends to mellow out your training drive. Hence, you don’t put those extra kilos on the bars, or do those extra reps, which are the ones that really stimulate growth.

JOHN: I advise 25-35 grams of carbs in pre meal. If that makes you sleepy, you are REALLY sensitive to carbs...and if you add a tad bit of fat, as I suggest, glucose entry into bloodstream will be controlled, and you will not have a big insulin dump that makes you sleepy.


Carbs function by raising insulin lower cortisol. Most people immediately think. "Yahoo! I am more anabolic!" NOT. Research now points that cortisol is your friend during training. It is now believed to be the primary signal to induce hypertrophy response.

JOHN: Eating some carbs isn't going to kill all cortisol and the inflammatory effect....again this is pure silliness and extreme. I believe it is wise to limit muscle protein breakdown in the big picture (enabling easier muscle protein synthesis if right nutrients are present), this happens with insulin from carbs.


When you train for strength and/or power, you want maximum focus and drive. That depends on the neurotransmitters dopamine and acetyl-choline. Taking carbs before and during lowers those neurotransmitter levels, taking the wind out of your sales.

JOHN: See how you do 45 minutes into a brutal workout with no carbs in you for the day..good luck with that...


Who can handle the most quality work wins. Multiple sources of carnitines, BCAA’s, beta-alanine, citrulline malate will increase work capacity -

JOHN: beta alanine looks great on paper, but I have never seen it do anything substantial except make your face tingle...I get it for free, and don't bother with it. Same with carnitines...I'll stick with casein hydrolysate and HBCD thank you.

Sounds like you had a convo with Ben Pak...he regularly preaches about no carbs at least a couple hours before workouts until immediately following workout.

 

[mountaindog1]

Sounds like you had a convo with Ben Pak...he regularly preaches about no carbs at least a couple hours before workouts until immediately following workout.

Ben and I actually just talked today, as we did a podcast together. He is changing his ideas on intraworkout nutrition. This was not from him.

JM

 

[double_barrel]

Ben and I actually just talked today, as we did a podcast together. He is changing his ideas on intraworkout nutrition. This was not from him.

JM

Look forward to hearing it!

 

[fitnesskatz]

fitnesskatz

i agree,,,my opinion what you find on here is much better imfo and much more correct than facebook,,,it sucks bout as bad as its stock,,,katz on here very imformative and accurate

 

[Turkishexpress]

There is so much contradictory information out there and it's easy to believe both ideologies would get you to a certain point. Depending on the person, depending whether they are on gear or not, one might get to that point faster with one ideology faster than the other. I'd really like to see what the top bodybuilders do and emulate what's working for them.

 

[way8lifter]

John i listened to the Bio jacked podcast When Keifer had you on...and because of that I already added about 100 grams intra workout ..helping me a lot on my back load

 

[Knight9]

Three things...

1)Thanks for posting this debate. No doubt in my mind your intra-workout methods have helped me tremendously.

2)I cannot freaking wait for that podcast.

3)I know you have many obligations, but I think I speak on behalf of many people here when I say I hope you start posting more often!

 

[Bigd50]

I couldn't train heavy and hard like I do without carb loading before the gym. I don't do the intra thing, just the pre and post workout. I don't do insulin, but I think the results people get from an insulin protocol proves how valuable carbs are around your workout.

 

[slayer66]

heavy weight got real lite when I added johns intra combo to my training..I wont waste a session without it period!

 

[flexdurden]

I think some coaches fall victim to the science without the application to real life. John, I believe you've said this many times, that your protocols take science as applied to real life and it is not a question of one versus the other but being able to take what is known and apply it to the situation to derive the optimal results and that although certain protocols may be successful, science may not yet support them, but it my in the future. Kind of like being ahead of the research curve.

I really like how you don't simply look at factors in isolation, but take in the big picture and look at real world results..and results are what we are after.

Thanks for posting this.

 

[ToroPharmaRep]

Always enjoy reading your posts JM! I love the thought process behind intra workout nutrition. I've had phenomenal results with HBCD as far as increasing the longevity of my workout. I recently tried Hydro whey from TN and got extremely gassy during my workout and couldn't achieve my normal pump I am going to give peptopro a try, I was just hoping for a cheaper solution with the Hydro whey. As far as cortisol levels during training, what about PTS? I've used it in the past to combat stress levels, and aid in sleep. I've also taken Choline and geranium pre workout with a slight increase in mental focus....slight...... I do enjoy CM in my intra, I've had success with it increasing pumps. I don't understand the "CPWO" thought process, I get the science but I believe you'd have to not train as heavy if your looking to avoid super-compensation. I feel like this is a fool's errand, personally I'd rather train heavy and hard. Now I just need a cost effective intra solution!

 

[kscowboy]

I also think some of the so called "Gurus" feel the need to be different than everyone else or come up with some crazy ideas that make people think they are god or know what they are talking about. THe net is full of 'EXPERTS" in this field and most of them feel the need to sell snake oil to keep their books full. They struggle to get clients and need to sell some crazy diet idea, some outlandish workout scheme or some "Super Supplements" which make them look smart.

Trainers like John, don't need all that crap. He has real world success and proven techniques that have gotten people to the highest level possible. John uses common sense as well and some people like to plagiarize some scientific study that was preformed on wild baboons and try to manipulate it to seem like it is an absolute. There are some really good trainers out there and some rally good ones on this site. I only mentioned John in this rant because this is his thread and i have worked with John a couple of times.

 

[illuminated33]

"carnitines, bcaa’s, beta-alanine, citrulline malate"... sounds like the person left out some type of stimulant(s) for their non mellow workout's.
I don't see how one would be more mellow/less intense on carbs instead of the stack he mentioned.

 

[kscowboy]

John,

I know who you are quoting here. Besides this issue, do you seem to agree with some of his other theories or ideas or are yours totally different than his (Granted i have worked with you 2 or 3 times in the past so i know your likes and dislikes but am curious as to what your thoughts about his teachings are).

 

[sbc5966]

Bodybuilders are not strength athletes, power athletes, or endurance athletes.

They are somewhere in between (at least at the elite level).

So following the nutrition protocols from any of those aforementioned sports won't have as large of a translational effect.

Accordingly, a bodybuilder's nutrition should be somewhere in between.

Good post, John.

EDIT: as a side note, I am getting kind of irritated at people thinking that they can manipulate their endogenous hormone production through diet (like testosterone/GH secretion) to the point to get supraphysiological effects.

I'll be damned the amount of GH you "inhibit" is that extra 0.000001 IU you needed in order to win the olympia.

The only hormones (in my opinion) you can really control that make a difference are insulin and leptin.

 

[sammy555]

The big thing I find with pre and intra carbs is increased recovery. Seems impossible to get sore. I do like training carbless in the am when Maintaing or cutting just because I seem more alert and ready to go but for growing when getting stronger is priority pre and intra seems to help me a lot.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[matt1164]

Can I have ur beta alanine. I really think it works great. I feel alot more endurance on it and don't tire out as quickly.

 

[Laroux76]

I used to follow the other coaches no carb theory, and lost weight, but had no strength. I switched to John meadows intra workout protocol, and I cannot believe the progress I have made. I am carb sensitive too, so it allows me to get carbs in, but not get fat.

 

[mountaindog1]

Three things...

1)Thanks for posting this debate. No doubt in my mind your intra-workout methods have helped me tremendously.

2)I cannot freaking wait for that podcast.

3)I know you have many obligations, but I think I speak on behalf of many people here when I say I hope you start posting more often!

Thanks brother! Sometimes I don't post much because of time commitments, but I do love this site, and have been loyal since day 1.

This is the only bodybuilding board on the internet that controls trolling and is number one in my book.

I will try to post more my friend!

JM