something thats been bugging me

[PHIL HERNON]

Question

i agree with what you are saying in that you need a reason to believe something...proof. thats all i was asking for in the lba thread.

you won the usas 10 years so now the product you promote has to be great, and you have the pics to prove it. ok, im going to go buy all the bs muscletech products bc JAY said he used them and he is one badass mofo.

id much prefer the proof of a real university study done on the effects of lbas on muscle hypertrophy compared to the effects of bcaas over the word of the guy selling them regardless what his pics look like.

dont get me wrong, when phil posts i pay attention and im not arguing with him on lbas, im just saying in order to get my business i need a reason. but im just one customer so im sure my $ wont be missed.

How much planning ans research did you go into before using UG labs for your AAS products? The research is at your finger tips for LBA..........if you refuse to search for it that is your loss............not our $ loss.

 

[b-boy]

How much planning ans research did you go into before using UG labs for your AAS products? The research is at your finger tips for LBA..........if you refuse to search for it that is your loss............not our $ loss.

WOW damn good point phil, i never even thought of using that example. couple people post on a sponsor thread saying i got my dvd's in x amount of days at a good price and everyone is buying from them...NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

 

[ssdark1]

How much planning ans research did you go into before using UG labs for your AAS products? The research is at your finger tips for LBA..........if you refuse to search for it that is your loss............not our $ loss.

honestly? not enough....but i KNOW testosterone works.

ok it is my loss. im not complaining, just giving my 2 cents as a potential customer....nothing more.

 

[KillerStack]

even if you are not mr. universe then maybe at least you have worked with someone and used your principles and beliefs on them and made them a monster, I would still listen and pay close attention to you based on what you have accomplished with others. this is my response to people who wanna post pics of chad nicholls, hany, chris aceto, or any other gurus or brilliant minds. They have produced something with their knowledge and if i call them out they can easily produce proof and results for me!

I see your point. I would listen too.

But, just to play Devil's advocate, sometimes a sissy boy could level valid criticism at those experts. Hell, even those experts are calling eachother clueless sometimes. Milos says Chad knows nothing about dieting. Doggcrapp says Hany is known for high dosage recs. Phil says, sure it's easy to maintain muscle on Palumbo diets when you take a shitload of testosterone. So track records don't always mean you're beyond criticism. Not the least because some of those gurus hand pick genetically elite guys to work with to build their rep.

I feel like I can question the supplements that Aceto or Hany (or Phil) are selling. I don't care what kind of track records they have. Perhaps it's arrogant of me but in this industry there's so much BS you should always question things no matter where it comes from.

I just think valid info can come from many places. For example, I would listen to a skinny nerd like Lyle McDonald on deadlift tips even though I'm twice as strong as him. Simply because I think he knows his shit.

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Yes

honestly? not enough....but i KNOW testosterone works.

ok it is my loss. im not complaining, just giving my 2 cents as a potential customer....nothing more.

It is only your loss that you are not expanding your horizons........you will inject foreign substances from powder from a country that you has toxins in it............but not use a protein that has been touted by thousands from a reputable dealer in the USA? What more do you need, Einstein himself to text you???

 

[Pekkerwood]

Very interesting topic. I will say that in my opinion the "post the pics" card until the discussion warrants it. I would like to delve into this just a little deeper logically if I may.

I think asking for before and after results shots is informative. With that said, its less informative than we tend to believe for a few reasons off the top of my head:

1. One result is statistically insignificant to anyone except the one who achieved it. We would openly criticize any "study" that published one result in data but we accept it when presented with pictures which leads to....

2. Pictures and graphics tend to overpower text in believability. Its why magic works. The old saw "A picture is worth a thousand words" is true. Some pictures on the "Ass Thread" are worth ten thousand words. Seeing the picture can "trick" our mind into putting more weight on just one result and is a little dangerous because.....

3. There are so many other variables and the best we can say is we altered "X" with "X" being the topic of discussion and achieved "Y". What is almost always unspoken is the fact that the poster altered "X" in an exact set of circumstances regarding all the other factors of existing training, supplements, vitamins, diet, and genetics, etc. In other words he altered "X" under very specific circumstances.

Understanding all of the above I will state that some evidence is much better than zero evidence if we consider the above three ideas. Very often, when show the Picture comes up it is often in lieu of "Please, I seriously doubt what you are saying because I have insufficient background on your knowledge and experience, but from the ideas I've read so far I bet you have Cheeto stains on your keyboard and elsewhere."


I find the before and after shots to be some of the best motivational material here on the boards. I think people should offer it when available. Its not a personal attack in most instances, pictures of your clients results are even better. I will not discount the knowledge of those who for whatever reason do not have the "look" themselves. I've been "suprised" so many times in life that I look forward to it now when I discuss things with a new person. Its very rewarding, and fulfilling to listen instead of just hear.

 

[e6er]

i agree to a point, but someones build isnt always indicative of their knowledge level. there are many people in this sport who know their shit but may not look the part. "post pics" is sometimes just a distraction from the logic of a debate.

Ding...ding..ding

Winner winner chicken dinner

 

[Diesel City]

Honestly man... Most of the guys that want to argue with Phil aren't really searching for knowledge or wisdom. I know, I used to be one of those guys. I'd challenge those guys that want to argue with Phil to try and find out what he's getting at. Does it mean you have to hire the guy? No. But you might just LEARN something... Look, the guy has been there and done that. He doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. His bodybuilding resume speaks for itself...

For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it. (Proverbs 8:11)

 

[b-boy]

Ding...ding..ding

Winner winner chicken dinner

read post # 33 also quoted above by killerstack.

you don't have to be mr. universe but show me something, show me someone else you have produced results with your infinite knowledge. all the study's in the world don't really mean shit done on rats and other animals, show me real world, in your fucking face, boo-ya, results!!

layne norton has been mentioned a few times in this thread, well he is a very good friend of mine and let me tell ya i respect the shit out of the man for not only does he study his ass off and learn everything he can about just about everything bodybuilding related, he has practiced his beliefs on himself and built one kick ass physique... Same goes for justin harris aka troponin. AND they both have produced outstanding results with numerous other people.

 

[tkav1980]

I think what alot of people miss with arguing a point with someone who is a professional in the field is a lack if imperical data. If you want to argue a training method with phil, b-boy, dante and the like you need imperical data to support your claim. On the internet "im a 6'0" 315 2.5% BF monster arguing my point by saying well i just told you my stats thats how i know it works," When this simply isnt tru and doesnt PROVE with DATA anything about your point. A picture CAN, not that it does but it can. I mean anyone can do a google search and steal a pic of some big jacked nobody and post it as his own. So that does add a variable in there, but its better than anonymous words on a screen . I trained under phil, I questioned his logic, his methods, and even didnt agree with certain results ( my body likes carbs more than he origionally thought) but how i made my arguement was with DATA. Pictures of changes based on changes to training and diet. Its not to call anyone out for not being Mr. O. almost none of us will ever set foot on that stage. Its to call out straight bull shit.

The attitudes some people have towards new information, especially if that information contradicts their own way of thinking are border line violent. And to a degree thats understandable. Think about if you are a religious person and tomorrow science proved there isnt a god. It tears down your whole belief structure. It would be utterly devastating to people. Well this process can translate to things that arent as ingrained into who a person is as something like religion.

Just try to remember this one little rule of science. Outrageous claims require outrageous evidence. Theres nothing wrong with stating a claim you feel to be true, but as science does, be prepared to have it independantly confirmed.

 

[pesty4077]

i agree to a point, but someones build isnt always indicative of their knowledge level. there are many people in this sport who know their shit but may not look the part. "post pics" is sometimes just a distraction from the logic of a debate.

Think of what you are saying. What if you are going to a Doctor and he tells you to give up smoking and be healthier. At the same time, he is smoking himself and he is very fat. I don't care what degrees he has, to me he has loss all credibilty as far as advising me. No, I would go to a Doctor that practices what he preaches.

 

[Lenny]

If you are gonna claim something I want a damn pic of yourself or some credentials, such as clients your have worked with to prove it...thousands of studies out there, just google it and pages come up for days long. As Pesty says, walk the walk, instead just post the talk! Or at least at one time you walked the walked and now are spreading the knowledge you applied and learned thru years.

 

[PHIL HERNON]

HILARIOUS

DONT YOU GUYS WANT TO SEE A PICTURE OF THE GIRL THAT YOUR FRIEND IS SETTING YOU UP WITH? .....HAHHAHAHAHHA YOU NEW GUYS CRACK ME UP..........

 

[PHIL HERNON]

BTW

If you are gonna claim something I want a damn pic of yourself or some credentials, such as clients your have worked with to prove it...thousands of studies out there, just google it and pages come up for days long. As Pesty says, walk the walk, instead just post the talk! Or at least at one time you walked the walked and now are spreading the knowledge you applied and learned thru years.

LENNY, YOU ARE LOOKING FKIN AWESOME! I FORGOT TO TELL YOU THAT........GREAT JOB MAN.

 

[b-boy]

LENNY, YOU ARE LOOKING FKIN AWESOME! I FORGOT TO TELL YOU THAT........GREAT JOB MAN.

x2

 

[pesty4077]

X3

 

[eroc613]

You how I started making improvement as a bodybuilder? When I started shutting my mouth and reading (useing the search button) the threads in this board. I've spent more time reading than posting. I've learned there's no need for me to post what I think when there are others on this board that know.

 

[norwegiann]

Apparently I have to do this . . . pictures from random times. End of 2008, I had used Keto/Ultimate Diet 2.0 for 10 weeks straight. Then February of 2009 I began a Test Prop/Tren Hex run. Gained 25 lbs in 10 weeks, though only used Tren Hex for 30 days ....

 

[PHIL HERNON]

hEY

Apparently I have to do this . . . pictures from random times. End of 2008, I had used Keto/Ultimate Diet 2.0 for 10 weeks straight. Then February of 2009 I began a Test Prop/Tren Hex run. Gained 25 lbs in 10 weeks, though only used Tren Hex for 30 days ....

I am not a bullshitter......... 1/2 of you looks great...........now, a leg shot?

 

[b-boy]

Apparently I have to do this . . . pictures from random times. End of 2008, I had used Keto/Ultimate Diet 2.0 for 10 weeks straight. Then February of 2009 I began a Test Prop/Tren Hex run. Gained 25 lbs in 10 weeks, though only used Tren Hex for 30 days ....

in that years time you put on some good thickness bro! NICE...