Stan Efferding's Intelligent View About BB Deaths and Health

[Bio]

When a bodybuilder dies people jump to a quick, uninformed conclusion. Personal responsibility plays a HUGE role! Yes AAS, GH, Ancillaries can all play a role in negative health issues and have serious consequences which is why everyone in this game needs to take their health seriously by watching their BP, doing blood work, get cardiac work up, Calcium CT, etc. I created The Definitive Health Thread, https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/the-definitive-health-thread.168881/ and made a thread about my calcium score, https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/my-ct-scan-calcium-score-results.167824/ in order to help people get their ducks in a row regarding basic health issues pertaining to this life! It's interesting to see some well known bodybuilders now talking about getting a Calcium CT test done...I think they've been reading Professional Muscle and that's a good thing!!

People are incredibly irresponsible when it comes to monitoring their health. It always amazes me how many people don't track their BP! High BP causes cardiomyopathy, heart attack, stroke, and is the number one cause of kidney failure!! Sleep apnea is another widely ignored issue and causes increased RBC's, high BP, cardiomyopathy, heart attack and on and on. I remember a video with Seth Feroce and he said he never used to check his BP which turned out to be high...really? With the amounts used regularly today for prolonged periods, people need to have some personal responsibility for these basic principles of health! If Seth had died of cardiac issues people would have jumped to say steroids did it. Would they have played a role? Yes, as a factor of co-morbidity but it would have been HIS own fault for not taking the most basic health precautions. Had Kali Muscle done a Calcium CT he could have avoided his heart attack. He had a widow maker and was lucky he survived! All of this is especially maddening considering heart disease is the number one killer!! There's another issue with these health tests not being part of everyone's work up with their doctor but that's another issue, so be proactive and be your own advocate with your health!

People can go on and on about AAS, GH, or whatever being bad but if you're not taking the above mentioned health precautions and more, then you've been irresponsible and have no right to solely blame gear for your health problems!

Here's Stan's Video...

 

[TheOtherOne55]

Thank you for this Bio. Your past threads are ridiculously important as is this one.
These BBing deaths get a huge variety of reactions. But for guys like us, who are living it and still pushing it, its a reminder to get your ducks in a row and to make sure we are all taking the necessary precautions—or at least try to be SAFE. AAS does not equate to dying early, ESPECIALLY when we have a place like PM giving us about as good of info as we can possibly get. There are too many smart guys and great threads here to be lazy and accept being uneducated on this topic.

I know I get bloodwork done every 4-6 months, but i'll admit that I have procrastinated about getting my Calcium CT checked.
I needed a friendly reminder to "get my shit done!" and this is it. Appreciate it!

 

[specter]

First thing i bought when i started gear was a bloodpressure machine..

 

[emeric delczeg]

When a bodybuilder dies people jump to a quick, uninformed conclusion. Personal responsibility plays a HUGE role! Yes AAS, GH, Ancillaries can all play a role in negative health issues and have serious consequences which is why everyone in this game needs to take their health seriously by watching their BP, doing blood work, get cardiac work up, Calcium CT, etc. I created The Definitive Health Thread, https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/the-definitive-health-thread.168881/ and made a thread about my calcium score, https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/my-ct-scan-calcium-score-results.167824/ in order to help people get their ducks in a row regarding basic health issues pertaining to this life! It's interesting to see some well known bodybuilders now talking about getting a Calcium CT test done...I think they've been reading Professional Muscle and that's a good thing!!

People are incredibly irresponsible when it comes to monitoring their health. It always amazes me how many people don't track their BP! High BP causes cardiomyopathy, heart attack, stroke, and is the number one cause of kidney failure!! Sleep apnea is another widely ignored issue and causes increased RBC's, high BP, cardiomyopathy, heart attack and on and on. I remember a video with Seth Feroce and he said he never used to check his BP which turned out to be high...really? With the amounts used regularly today for prolonged periods, people need to have some personal responsibility for these basic principles of health! If Seth had died of cardiac issues people would have jumped to say steroids did it. Would they have played a role? Yes, as a factor of co-morbidity but it would have been HIS own fault for not taking the most basic health precautions. Had Kali Muscle done a Calcium CT he could have avoided his heart attack. He had a widow maker and was lucky he survived! All of this is especially maddening considering heart disease is the number one killer!! There's another issue with these health tests not being part of everyone's work up with their doctor but that's another issue, so be proactive and be your own advocate with your health!

People can go on and on about AAS, GH, or whatever being bad but if you're not taking the above mentioned health precautions and more, then you've been irresponsible and have no right to solely blame gear for your health problems!

Here's Stan's Video...

Precaution.

 

[buck]

It is not just BBer's. The majority of people do not monitor their health and end up dyeing early because of it. BBer's are just more obsessive then most and have more drive to get there sooner, or at least some do. Guys can eat steak a few meals a day along with white rice throw in the occasional avocado and say they are eating healthy and clean and that just isn't so as i see it. I started doing cycles over 20 years ago in my 40's and while not as high a dose as many i was on 1000-1400 mg/week 40+ weeks a year for over a decade to come off to have blood work done, then back on again. Then tapered down to my cycles these days are what other like to call TRT. More is better will take it's toll but there are ways to mitigate it. Watching BP, glucose, eating a nutritious diet can go a long way. A little cardio and some stress management are not a bad thing. We are all a culmination of our choices. Even if we bury our head and choose to do nothing about it. That is a choice as well.

 

[xpoc]

It is not just BBer's. The majority of people do not monitor their health and end up dyeing early because of it. BBer's are just more obsessive then most and have more drive to get there sooner, or at least some do. Guys can eat steak a few meals a day along with white rice throw in the occasional avocado and say they are eating healthy and clean and that just isn't so as i see it. I started doing cycles over 20 years ago in my 40's and while not as high a dose as many i was on 1000-1400 mg/week 40+ weeks a year for over a decade to come off to have blood work done, then back on again. Then tapered down to my cycles these days are what other like to call TRT. More is better will take it's toll but there are ways to mitigate it. Watching BP, glucose, eating a nutritious diet can go a long way. A little cardio and some stress management are not a bad thing. We are all a culmination of our choices. Even if we bury our head and choose to do nothing about it. That is a choice as well.

Do I read this correctly that you didn't even start until you were in your 40's? If so, how old are you now and what does your gear and/or TRT regime look like? Any health issues you care to share? Thx Buck

 

[Mufasa123]

Something about an once of prevention....

I see in tons of threads people trying TRT plus primo and having it hit their HDL (just proved it to myself conclusively narrowing things down with primo indeed the culprit - and this is HPLC tested same batch 3 cycles worth over a few years). A surprise to many. This is not a new drug. Same with equipoise, primo and mast on E2. What does this say about proclivity in our population for basic Bloodwork and even interest in such over the past decades? Nothing good.

Some don't even go to doctors. Personally my N=1 matters so while I make full use of medical professionals, I'm accountable to me and I track and monitor everything myself. Not hard. Basic bloods on/off cycle, BP, understand how different drugs impact my physiology (my BP on tren and even dht based orals is stable and has been lower because my driver is water/fluids).

Does this offer me immunity from sides or penalties or misfortune from choices... nope but helps see it coming and allows me to potentially mitigate. Flying blind often causes one to hit obstacles that may be preventable. Eyes open is a good policy.

 

[Bio]

Thank you for this Bio. Your past threads are ridiculously important as is this one.
These BBing deaths get a huge variety of reactions. But for guys like us, who are living it and still pushing it, its a reminder to get your ducks in a row and to make sure we are all taking the necessary precautions—or at least try to be SAFE. AAS does not equate to dying early, ESPECIALLY when we have a place like PM giving us about as good of info as we can possibly get. There are too many smart guys and great threads here to be lazy and accept being uneducated on this topic.

I know I get bloodwork done every 4-6 months, but i'll admit that I have procrastinated about getting my Calcium CT checked.
I needed a friendly reminder to "get my shit done!" and this is it. Appreciate it!

Thanks TO55! So here's why I push the Calcium CT so much in the other thread I made about my score. I told the story of an older friend of mine who is a Type II Diabetic. He's thin, in shape, works out, does cardio, walks and hikes. When I told him he should get the test done, he asked his primary care for a referral and he said NO! This primary care physician said no to a proactive test that is paid for out of pocket and should be a part of everyone's workup. My buddy was 65 at the time too, not 30 years old. This is why I said, be proactive and be your own advocate! Tell the doctor his denial is on record and should anything happen, he or she will be held liable!! The test is anywhere from $99 to $250 in most places...cheap for out of pocket CT scan. Luckily my friend knows another doctor who wrote the referral. Under 100 is considered normal range and his score was 2,175. He had a widow maker that was deemed 100% blocked. Turned out he wasn't a candidate for stents and wound up having a triple bypass. He also had NO PRIOR SYMPTOMS!! His doctor said if he had a heart attack it would have killed him. This friend has never used steroids. After doing some research I found that there's a correlation between diabetes and high amounts of calcified plaque...a statistic his doctor was apparently unaware of. So if you are diabetic absolutely get this test done!

The other reason and this one hits home, is our brother here at PM, Sides. If some of you didn't see it, he had a massive heart attack several months ago. He's my age, 53, and he's also been in this game a long time. He and his wife recently had a baby too. His life is very different now and aside from the severe physical damage, the psychological damage has also been devastating for him. He was too weak to pick up his baby. Hopefully that has changed since we last talked. Not trying to add insult to injury Sides, in case you're reading this, but it's a teachable moment. Had Sides got a Calcium CT Scan, he would have been aware of the blockages and been able to get himself on a path of recovery.

If someone thinks their heart is beating incorrectly, go get an EKG. Could be AFIB or something worse. If you want to know your ejection fraction, get an echocardiogram. For your plaque score get a Calcium CT done. Keep this statistic in mind, 50% of the people who had heart attacks had no prior symptoms...let that sink in! So many go by how they feel and that way of thinking may get you killed or leave you with a poor quality of life!! Not sure which one is worse? I guess it depends on the individual.

 

[LATS]

As I've always said..
only you are responsible for your health..

only you can determine how much ped you are going to use.

Only you can determine if you are going to get routine blood and cardiac tests..

Only you put the needle in your ass with the amounts in the syringe..

Only you can determine how far your willing to push..

It's not bodybuilding fault

It's not steroids fault

It's your fault if you get nailed.

Own it. Stop blaming bodybuilding

 

[Joltan]

Here is my theory....

People overlook the fact that there isn't much difference between a 300lb bodybuilder and a 300lb obese person when it comes to health and aging... Your heart is working just as hard, you are eating just as much (actually much MORE if you are bodybuilding) which is constantly spiking your blood sugar /IGF-1/insulin (and making insulin sensitivity worse), MTOR and making your digestive system and organs work 24/7. Higher blood sugar causes more inflammation, which may be the main cause of cardiovascular issues. The heavier you are the more difficult it is to breathe, especially when sleeping. I start to snore after I get over 220lbs, and stop when I'm under. This is terrible for your cardiovascular system because your system isn't getting enough oxygen and you are not sleeping/recovering well. When you are eating a lot everything grows, and when you combine that with lifting (spiking heart rate and blood pressure) - it likely causes the heart to enlarge as well. Weightlifting and protein consumption takes a toll on kidney health - and when your kidneys get weak it causes all sorts of cardiac problems. The list can go on I'm sure... this is off the top of my head.

I think the above is the bigger problem - not really the drugs. As far as drugs - insulin, gh and IGF-1 are all well known to rapidly accelerate aging. Usually people don't start getting diseases, inflammation and issues until their cells age and degenerate. And then anti-estrogens are bad because of the issues they cause with cholesterol. Bodybuilders in the 70's didn't take these drugs (or as much), but just as important - they weren't as big either.

 

[Flex500]

When a bodybuilder dies people jump to a quick, uninformed conclusion. Personal responsibility plays a HUGE role! Yes AAS, GH, Ancillaries can all play a role in negative health issues and have serious consequences which is why everyone in this game needs to take their health seriously by watching their BP, doing blood work, get cardiac work up, Calcium CT, etc. I created The Definitive Health Thread, https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/the-definitive-health-thread.168881/ and made a thread about my calcium score, https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/my-ct-scan-calcium-score-results.167824/ in order to help people get their ducks in a row regarding basic health issues pertaining to this life! It's interesting to see some well known bodybuilders now talking about getting a Calcium CT test done...I think they've been reading Professional Muscle and that's a good thing!!

People are incredibly irresponsible when it comes to monitoring their health. It always amazes me how many people don't track their BP! High BP causes cardiomyopathy, heart attack, stroke, and is the number one cause of kidney failure!! Sleep apnea is another widely ignored issue and causes increased RBC's, high BP, cardiomyopathy, heart attack and on and on. I remember a video with Seth Feroce and he said he never used to check his BP which turned out to be high...really? With the amounts used regularly today for prolonged periods, people need to have some personal responsibility for these basic principles of health! If Seth had died of cardiac issues people would have jumped to say steroids did it. Would they have played a role? Yes, as a factor of co-morbidity but it would have been HIS own fault for not taking the most basic health precautions. Had Kali Muscle done a Calcium CT he could have avoided his heart attack. He had a widow maker and was lucky he survived! All of this is especially maddening considering heart disease is the number one killer!! There's another issue with these health tests not being part of everyone's work up with their doctor but that's another issue, so be proactive and be your own advocate with your health!

People can go on and on about AAS, GH, or whatever being bad but if you're not taking the above mentioned health precautions and more, then you've been irresponsible and have no right to solely blame gear for your health problems!

Here's Stan's Video...

Respectfully, it feels like we are talking about two different things. We should all get blood work, check bp, etc. and I agree with you 100%. That said, the reason we do that is because these drugs are that dangerous...even if you compete on an "average" level.

I guess my perspective is all these posts about checking health and how that is so vital is directly due to this sport, and these drugs being that dangerous/lethal, right?

 

[Flex500]

As I've always said..
only you are responsible for your health..

only you can determine how much ped you are going to use.

Only you can determine if you are going to get routine blood and cardiac tests..

Only you put the needle in your ass with the amounts in the syringe..

Only you can determine how far your willing to push..

It's not bodybuilding fault

It's not steroids fault

It's your fault if you get nailed.

Own it. Stop blaming bodybuilding

Of course it's the individuals fault, but the reason you have to be so meticulous and cautious is because these drugs and this sport is so dangerous.

It feels like we are talking about two very different subjects or different questions...

1. Q. How dangerous are the drugs and this sport? A. Very, even at a modest level (not "grams")


that is a very different but just as important as:


2. Q. Whose fault is it if you ruin your health? A. The individuals


The point many of us are making (and Seth in that video) is that these drugs are dangerous on even modest doses. Of course, if you get sick it is your fault for using them and for not watching your health but the drugs are still quite dangerous.

 

[LATS]

Respectfully, it feels like we are talking about two different things. We should all get blood work, check bp, etc. and I agree with you 100%. That said, the reason we do that is because these drugs are that dangerous...even if you compete on an "average" level.

I guess my perspective is all these posts about checking health and how that is so vital is directly due to this sport, and these drugs being that dangerous/lethal, right?

Again.. I disagree. These are not drugs that can kill you where you stand.. its not meth.. heroine . Opioids.. it takes years of abuse in regards to anabolics.. they are hormones.. hormones which can negatively impact lipids.. which can negatively impact the cardiovascular system.. etc. But they aren't dropping people in a day. The guys we are referring too used large amounts for decades..

 

[Gym-Rat]

IMO, other tests are much more important than calcium scores. Ive had them all.
Yes its important, but it does not detect soft-plaque and blockages..
Stress-echo, and nuclear-stress can do that. Calcified plaque (calcium) is capped-plaque that wont rupture (as easily).

Sometimes it is a 1st step to get your other tests, but people are treating it like its be-all end-all (like Nick Walker).
"I have zero calcium" why of course, you're 27??
In the meantime, his heart could be enlarged 4x, the size of an elephants and ready to burst (exaggeration) but you get the point.

 

[Mufasa123]

1. Q. How dangerous are the drugs and this sport? A. Very, even at a modest level (not "grams")

.

course, if you get sick it is your fault for using them and for not watching your health but the drugs are still quite dangerous.

While everyone has to make their own assessment of danger and risk in this and life... this ranks pretty low if even appearing on my list of danger (talking strictly about AAS and GH). I'm just trying to monitor my health, impacts on it, be thoughtful and take care of the one body I have.

Shoot, my biggest concern and cited more and more here is keeping my weight down with age. Have lost a few close friends in the last couple years who sat above 300lbs for too long.

 

[Bio]

Respectfully, it feels like we are talking about two different things. We should all get blood work, check bp, etc. and I agree with you 100%. That said, the reason we do that is because these drugs are that dangerous...even if you compete on an "average" level.

I guess my perspective is all these posts about checking health and how that is so vital is directly due to this sport, and these drugs being that dangerous/lethal, right?

You're not taking into consideration the unknowns that exist in the lives of the individuals who have passed. I'm referring to genetic and lifestyle unknowns...rec drugs, untreated sleep apnea, untreated high BP, etc. We're also talking about a global endeavor. If you take a cross section of that many different people you're bound to have fatalities where "gear" isn't the primary cause. A contributing co-comorbidity factor? Perhaps. Remember, millions of people world wide use AAS, GH and ancillaries. I don't think certain drugs are as dangerous or lethal as you say. We do know some drugs pose more of a health risk but some people take TRT and their blood pressure immediately goes up. Others get gyno. You make it sound like the drugs are lethal no matter what and that's not true. The potential for adverse effects is there so be smart and monitor yourself to see if you're one of those people who has adverse effects. Common sense with dose and duration also play a huge roll!! Also, as @LATS stated before, more than a handful of fairly recent deaths had nothing to do with gear. For instance one was suicide by someone who was no longer bodybuilding but everyone quickly jumped to gear being the cause of death. There's a high degree of personal responsibility that goes with this sport, every other sport and life in general.


Many of us including myself have been using gear for decades. I tried D-bol at 18 but got sick two weeks later and stopped. At 19 I did my first real cycle, Anavar, Deca and Test. For many years I used approximately 1.2 to 1.5 grams of test and 600 Deca, sometimes more, with no AI. I've used many other AAS but those were always my go to. I think keeping it basic may have helped me, who knows. All these decades later my calcium score is 0. 6 weeks ago I did an EKG, Echocardiogram, Nuclear Stress Test and extensive blood work. All checked out good! I turned 53 two days ago!! I will continue to monitor my health whether I'm on gear or off.

 

[qbkilla]

Here is my theory....

People overlook the fact that there isn't much difference between a 300lb bodybuilder and a 300lb obese person when it comes to health and aging... Your heart is working just as hard, you are eating just as much (actually much MORE if you are bodybuilding) which is constantly spiking your blood sugar /IGF-1/insulin (and making insulin sensitivity worse), MTOR and making your digestive system and organs work 24/7. Higher blood sugar causes more inflammation, which may be the main cause of cardiovascular issues. The heavier you are the more difficult it is to breathe, especially when sleeping. I start to snore after I get over 220lbs, and stop when I'm under. This is terrible for your cardiovascular system because your system isn't getting enough oxygen and you are not sleeping/recovering well. When you are eating a lot everything grows, and when you combine that with lifting (spiking heart rate and blood pressure) - it likely causes the heart to enlarge as well. Weightlifting and protein consumption takes a toll on kidney health - and when your kidneys get weak it causes all sorts of cardiac problems. The list can go on I'm sure... this is off the top of my head.

I think the above is the bigger problem - not really the drugs. As far as drugs - insulin, gh and IGF-1 are all well known to rapidly accelerate aging. Usually people don't start getting diseases, inflammation and issues until their cells age and degenerate. And then anti-estrogens are bad because of the issues they cause with cholesterol. Bodybuilders in the 70's didn't take these drugs (or as much), but just as important - they weren't as big either.

I agree with this. We know bodybuilding isn't healthy but associate it with fitness. If we look at the definition of "fit" that isn't the case. Exercise increases our fitness but AAS and increasing bodyweight (muscle and fat) decreases it. It's a bell shaped curve, the 140 lb kid works his way up 160, 180 he may become more fit, then he hits 200, 220, 240 he starts to become less healthy and fit like you described. At 5'10 there are probably very few 230lb plus fit people and I'd guess most are pro athletes NFL/MMA) that are naturally closer to that size and can have great cardiovascular health from practicing a sport multiple hours per day almost year round.

 

[danieltx]

Many of us including myself have been using gear for decades. I tried D-bol at 18 but got sick two weeks later and stopped. At 19 I did my first real cycle, Anavar, Deca and Test. For many years I used approximately 1.2 to 1.5 grams of test and 600 Deca, sometimes more, with no AI. I've used many other AAS but those were always my go to. I think keeping it basic may have helped me, who knows. All these decades later my calcium score is 0. 6 weeks ago I did an EKG, Echocardiogram, Nuclear Stress Test and extensive blood work. All checked out good! I turned 53 two days ago!! I will continue to monitor my health whether I'm on gear or off.

I know local guys in their 40s / 50s / 60s who used for decades and have no health issues. I know a guy who started at 14, is now 39, and has never come off except for one period where he was just tired of injecting - and when he came off he got a blood clot. Got it taken care of, went back on, no problems.

For every bodybuilder you hear who dies young of an unexpected health issue there's another who used for years with 0 problems. It's like the evening news - you only hear the bad stuff.

 

[Cabron]

It's like the evening news - you only hear the bad stuff.

well, 'news' stands for 'noteworthy events, weather, sports'

so it makes sense in that context

 

[Cabron]

Thanks TO55! So here's why I push the Calcium CT so much, in the other thread I made about my score, I told the story of an older friend of mine who is a Type II Diabetic. He's thin, in shape, works out, does cardio, walks and hikes. When I told him he should get the test done, he asked his primary care for a referral and he said NO! This primary care physician said no to a proactive test that is paid for out of pocket and should be a part of everyone's workup. My buddy was 65 at the time too, not 30 years old. This is why I said, be proactive and be your own advocate! Tell the doctor his denial is on record and should anything happen, he or she will be held liable!! The test is anywhere from $99 to $250 in most places...cheap for out of pocket CT scan. Luckily my friend knows another doctor who wrote the referral. Under 100 is considered normal range and his score was 2,175. He had a widow maker that was deemed 100% blocked. Turned out he wasn't a candidate for stents and wound up having a triple bypass. He also had NO PRIOR SYMPTOMS!! His doctor said if he had a heart attack it would have killed him. This friend has never used steroids. After doing some research I found that there's a correlation between diabetes and high amounts of calcified plaque...a statistic his doctor was apparently unaware of. So if you are diabetic absolutely get this test done!

The other reason and this one hits home, is our brother here at PM, Sides. If some of you didn't see it, he had a massive heart attack several months ago. He's my age, 53, and he's also been in this game a long time. He and his wife recently had a baby too. His life is very different now and aside from the severe physical damage, the psychological damage has also been devastating for him. He was too weak to pick up his baby. Hopefully that has changed since we last talked. Not trying to add insult to injury Sides, in case you're reading this, but it's a teachable moment. Had Sides got a Calcium CT Scan, he would have been aware of the blockages and been able to get himself on a path of recovery.

If someone thinks their heart is beating incorrectly, go get an EKG. Could be AFIB or something worse. If you want to know your ejection fraction, get an echocardiogram. For your plaque score get a Calcium CT done. Keep this statistic in mind, 50% of the people who had heart attacks had no prior symptoms...let that sink in! So many go by how they feel and that way of thinking may get you killed or leave you with a poor quality of life!! Not sure which one is worse? I guess it depends on the individual.

i haven't gotten a calcium CT yet - though it is on my to-do list

what measures are available to us if we have really high scores?


im 32 years old with no family history of heart disease on either side - so im not tremendously concerned about it.... but still