Stan Efferding's Intelligent View About BB Deaths and Health

[LATS]

You're not taking into consideration the unknowns that exist in the lives of the individuals who have passed. I'm referring to genetic and lifestyle unknowns...rec drugs, untreated sleep apnea, untreated high BP, etc. We're also talking about a global endeavor. If you take a cross section of that many different people you're bound to have fatalities where "gear" isn't the primary cause. A contributing co-comorbidity factor? Perhaps. Remember, millions of people world wide use AAS, GH and ancillaries. I don't think certain drugs are as dangerous or lethal as you say. We do know some drugs pose more of a health risk but some people take TRT and their blood pressure immediately goes up. Others get gyno. You make it sound like the drugs are lethal no matter what and that's not true. The potential for adverse effects is there so be smart and monitor yourself to see if you're one of those people who has adverse effects. Common sense with dose and duration also play a huge roll!! Also, as @LATS stated before, more than a handful of fairly recent deaths had nothing to do with gear. For instance one was suicide by someone who was no longer bodybuilding but everyone quickly jumped to gear being the cause of death. There's a high degree of personal responsibility that goes with this sport, every other sport and life in general.


Many of us including myself have been using gear for decades. I tried D-bol at 18 but got sick two weeks later and stopped. At 19 I did my first real cycle, Anavar, Deca and Test. For many years I used approximately 1.2 to 1.5 grams of test and 600 Deca, sometimes more, with no AI. I've used many other AAS but those were always my go to. I think keeping it basic may have helped me, who knows. All these decades later my calcium score is 0. 6 weeks ago I did an EKG, Echocardiogram, Nuclear Stress Test and extensive blood work. All checked out good! I turned 53 two days ago!! I will continue to monitor my health whether I'm on gear or off.

Yes.. there's a old saying in the medical community " the poison is in the dosage ".. meaning all meds.. aspirin etc included can be troublesome if taken in the wrong dosage.. remember that " side effects" are letting you know that your taking too much. But many then take meds to counter the side effects that have their own side effects.. its a slippery slope...

We hear guys constantly say that tren gives them night sweats. Well lower the frickin dose . It's really that simple.. stop taking compounds that make you feel " off".. again , sides are a sign to back off. There is no minimum dose for any compound.. its different for everyone.. stop thinking you have a " minimum" dose that is effective..

tren, for example, can bring results at 100mgs.. anything over that makes me feel " off".. so 100 mgs it is for me .

Test is great.. but anything over 300 to 400mgs is side effects in a bottle for me. And im not taking a anti e to counter that which brings its own issues..

I could go on and on.. but again it's the dosage. Not the compound. The issue now is that a " moderate" cycle is 750mgs of test, 500 deca, 50mgs of dbol, 5 ius of gh, clen, AI .. so many don't have a clue that too many of us " old timers" that is a big cycle. . ....

 

[Wonton]

End of day -- I and you should take responsibility for our decisions.

We all going to die , eventually we miss something or can't fix something.

But we should all do our best with our health. Most of you on this board can definitely do a better job monitoring your health then a doc.

Maybe we have the advantage...we have only one patient -- ourselves

 

[Cabron]

i am getting into the habit of doing these post-meal walks

putting my treadmill that sits in front of my television to use finally

 

[Flex500]

Again.. I disagree. These are not drugs that can kill you where you stand.. its not meth.. heroine . Opioids.. it takes years of abuse in regards to anabolics.. they are hormones.. hormones which can negatively impact lipids.. which can negatively impact the cardiovascular system.. etc. But they aren't dropping people in a day. The guys we are referring too used large amounts for decades..

I'm not making the connection that something has to be lethal at the first dose to be dangerous? Plenty of folks also take opioids for decades and don't die but they are still dangerous. Hell we have a heroine addict in our family who is on his third decade of use and while he is alive, those drugs are still dangerous. My premise is these drugs are dangerous even at modest doses. Yes, getting checkups and taking care of yourself will allow you to avoid issues but they are still dangerous (which is why you need the checkups in the first place). In most cases they are going to be deleterious to a persons health.

There are certainly levels of danger but if you take a drug that has a negative impact to your health it is inherently dangerous. At even modest bbing doses, they are certainly deleterious to a humans health.

I feel like we are arguing the same thing and yet two different things at once.

 

[KillerStack]

The other reason and this one hits home, is our brother here at PM, Sides. If some of you didn't see it, he had a massive heart attack several months ago. He's my age, 53, and he's also been in this game a long time. He and his wife recently had a baby too. His life is very different now and aside from the severe physical damage, the psychological damage has also been devastating for him. He was too weak to pick up his baby. Hopefully that has changed since we last talked.

I missed this, very unfortunate! I hope he is doing as well as possible under the circumstances. Best writer here.

 

[Bio]

I agree with this. We know bodybuilding isn't healthy but associate it with fitness. If we look at the definition of "fit" that isn't the case. Exercise increases our fitness but AAS and increasing bodyweight (muscle and fat) decreases it. It's a bell shaped curve, the 140 lb kid works his way up 160, 180 he may become more fit, then he hits 200, 220, 240 he starts to become less healthy and fit like you described. At 5'10 there are probably very few 230lb plus fit people and I'd guess most are pro athletes NFL/MMA) that are naturally closer to that size and can have great cardiovascular health from practicing a sport multiple hours per day almost year round.

AAS, muscle and fat decreases fitness? When you use the word fit, what is the definition of that? Fit or fitness, if the definition is cardiovascular endurance, is something that a person has to keep up. Look at a heavyweight fighter like Roy Nelson. He was known for his endurance but looked like he just left the buffet table. There are many levels and varying degrees of fitness just like the varying degrees of muscle on bodybuilders. Where do you get these random numbers of 200lbs, 220lbs, 240lbs and decide that a person becomes less healthy at these weights? What is the definition of healthy? I'm asking all of this because people tend to throw out generalizations to make things simple but it's not always that simple.

I was that 140lb kid you mention and these days I usually sit at a downsized 230lbs at 53 years old and I'm in very good health which I know from regular blood work, cardiac workups, etc.

 

[Wonton]

i am getting into the habit of doing these post-meal walks

putting my treadmill that sits in front of my television to use finally

Sound advice , not sure about his health but he's breathing a little heavy for a walk at that pace imo

 

[Alan1]

i am getting into the habit of doing these post-meal walks

putting my treadmill that sits in front of my television to use finally

I've been doing the same since first seeing those videos of his. Have been pleasantly surprised how much better my digestion and energy are just from a quick, brisk walk after eating.

 

[Joltan]

AAS, muscle and fat decreases fitness? When you use the word fit, what is the definition of that? Fit or fitness, if the definition is cardiovascular endurance, is something that a person has to keep up. Look at a heavyweight fighter like Roy Nelson. He was known for his endurance but looked like he just left the buffet table. There are many levels and varying degrees of fitness just like the varying degrees of muscle on bodybuilders. Where do you get these random numbers of 200lbs, 220lbs, 240lbs and decide that a person becomes less healthy at these weights? What is the definition of healthy? I'm asking all of this because people tend to throw out generalizations to make things simple but it's not always that simple.

I was that 140lb kid you mention and these days I usually sit at a downsized 230lbs at 53 years old and I'm in very good health which I know from regular blood work, cardiac workups, etc.

The cardiovascular system has to work harder the more muscle you have. More bloodflow and oxygen to move around. Roy Nelson was mostly fat, so he doesn't tire as fast as a 260lb guy with pure muscle. The guy with muscle will gas much faster because the oxygen/blood demands of the muscle. Doesn't mean he is fit - his heart doesn't have to work as hard to keep up with the demands from his body.

Also the more food you eat the faster your cells age. It also means your organs and digestive system are working more often. You don't see many obese 70-80-90-100 year old's - the body can only process so much.

 

[buck]

Fit and healthy are not synonymous as i see it. How fit would depend on what activity one is talking about. As for healthy, i find that to more involve actions which will help lead to a longer/optimal life span.

 

[Bio]

The cardiovascular system has to work harder the more muscle you have. More bloodflow and oxygen to move around. Roy Nelson was mostly fat, so he doesn't tire as fast as a 260lb guy with pure muscle. The guy with muscle will gas much faster because the oxygen/blood demands of the muscle. Doesn't mean he is fit - his heart doesn't have to work as hard to keep up with the demands from his body.

Also the more food you eat the faster your cells age. It also means your organs and digestive system are working more often. You don't see many obese 70-80-90-100 year old's - the body can only process so much.

I understand how it works, I have a fight background. It was a reply to a question about fitness levels and bodyweight, both fat and muscle. You can have a high degree of muscle and be fit and you can carry a higher degree of bodyfat, like Roy Nelson, and be fit. It depends on the individual and how much they put into it. Roy, as my example, likes to eat, so he's not going to look like one of us but he can still be incredibly fit. We tend to use a visual to determine someone's level of being fit but that doesn't always tell the whole story. As for the sentence that I put in bold, that's just silly, Roy was very fit! Yes the guy with more muscle will gas quicker IF they're not doing the amount of cardio training they need to.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

The cardiovascular system has to work harder the more muscle you have. More bloodflow and oxygen to move around. Roy Nelson was mostly fat, so he doesn't tire as fast as a 260lb guy with pure muscle. The guy with muscle will gas much faster because the oxygen/blood demands of the muscle. Doesn't mean he is fit - his heart doesn't have to work as hard to keep up with the demands from his body.

Also the more food you eat the faster your cells age. It also means your organs and digestive system are working more often. You don't see many obese 70-80-90-100 year old's - the body can only process so much.

We're splitting hairs here. Making an argument that the muscle guy will tire more than the fat guys is ludicrous.
In order to build that muscle, his body expertly figured out ways to send oxygen around his entire body, making him more fit.
NOT the fat guy.

I get what youre trying to say. But making the comparison with someone who is fat is worthless.
A more muscle physique has trained itself to oxygenate rapidly and more quickly than someone untrained or having a higher bf.
Those are facts. But its also true that PAST A CERTAIN POINT, the body works harder to do this. We do not know where that point is. And trying to pretend like we do isnt worth it. NFL players are the perfect examples. I understand we want to use the argument that "big is bad" right now. But large athletes can live. Its a fact. We've seen this in professional sports for decades. The flip of the equation is bodybuilding, but we are still figuring out where that line is. Very dependant on each person, their genetics and all that. We can't make one objective decision here.

 

[qbkilla]

AAS, muscle and fat decreases fitness? When you use the word fit, what is the definition of that? Fit or fitness, if the definition is cardiovascular endurance, is something that a person has to keep up. Look at a heavyweight fighter like Roy Nelson. He was known for his endurance but looked like he just left the buffet table. There are many levels and varying degrees of fitness just like the varying degrees of muscle on bodybuilders. Where do you get these random numbers of 200lbs, 220lbs, 240lbs and decide that a person becomes less healthy at these weights? What is the definition of healthy? I'm asking all of this because people tend to throw out generalizations to make things simple but it's not always that simple.

I was that 140lb kid you mention and these days I usually sit at a downsized 230lbs at 53 years old and I'm in very good health which I know from regular blood work, cardiac workups, etc.

Fit and health as in the actual clinical definition of the words, and fitness, not what we may do associating fitness with extreme muscle, extremely low body fat, or being able to move weight through an isolated range of motion (flat bench press in the 8-12 range or a tricep press down in the 12-20 range).

Im 185, if I diet down to 178 the calories I need to get there (about 200 for id guess 7 weeks) I have no energy, libido, cant sleep. If I eat enough to bulk up to 230 (lets assume its muscle), BP goes up, I lose cardiorespiratory endurance, my muscular endurance drops (chin-ups), BP probably goes up, heart palpitations, blood work is off. Neither extreme is good.

I also think surivival of the fittest, when we get to a point we need BP or other meds, ED meds for sex (reproduction) ,machines to sleep, what if the power grid were to go down or we didn't have this technology, how would quality of life be if we rely on this stuff to maintain health from a biological perspective?

If someone is 300lbs can they still run like they could at 200, co as many chin-ups (muscular endurance)? I think the things we do (gaining weight basically) can be beneficial to a point but once it peaks it starts to level off. Similar to losing weight. If a 250lb obese woman diets down to 145 that might be her ideal weight, if she pushes down to 110 she's not going to be as healthy. Us in reverse.

 

[jeroendebleser]

I know local guys in their 40s / 50s / 60s who used for decades and have no health issues. I know a guy who started at 14, is now 39, and has never come off except for one period where he was just tired of injecting - and when he came off he got a blood clot. Got it taken care of, went back on, no problems.

For every bodybuilder you hear who dies young of an unexpected health issue there's another who used for years with 0 problems. It's like the evening news - you only hear the bad stuff.

Agreed Daniel

 

[Bio]

IMO, other tests are much more important than calcium scores. Ive had them all.
Yes its important, but it does not detect soft-plaque and blockages..
Stress-echo, and nuclear-stress can do that. Calcified plaque (calcium) is capped-plaque that wont rupture (as easily).

Sometimes it is a 1st step to get your other tests, but people are treating it like its be-all end-all (like Nick Walker).
"I have zero calcium" why of course, you're 27??
In the meantime, his heart could be enlarged 4x, the size of an elephants and ready to burst (exaggeration) but you get the point.

Here's a different view on soft vs hard plaque...

https://www.medindia.net/news/healt...ses-greater-risk-of-heart-attack-168735-1.htm

This study is about the detection of non calcified plaque...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21669351/

By someone announcing their calcium score, how is that treating it like it's be all, end all? It's just a tool in the tool box. No one is saying it's the most important test, that's just your interpretation. Referencing the above in bold, it could have been a life saver for Dallas McCarver who was 26! For the cost, it's worth doing especially if you're competing at the highest levels of the sport at any age!! As far as the heart being enlarged, that is why it's recommended to get a full workup including echocardiogram and EKG. No one here is saying only get this one test.

 

[qbkilla]

Here's a different view on soft vs hard plaque...

https://www.medindia.net/news/healt...ses-greater-risk-of-heart-attack-168735-1.htm

This study is about the detection of non calcified plaque...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21669351/

By someone announcing their calcium score, how is that treating it like it's be all, end all? It's just a tool in the tool box. No one is saying it's the most important test, that's just your interpretation. Referencing the above in bold, it could have been a life saver for Dallas McCarver who was 26! For the cost, it's worth doing especially if you're competing at the highest levels of the sport at any age!! As far as the heart being enlarged, that is why it's recommended to get a full workup including echocardiogram and EKG. No one here is saying only get this one test.

What are the highest risk factors for us specifically that would clog arteries? I know we talk about high blood pressure, kidneys, etc.

I assume cholesterol which AAS affects but I've also read that cholesterol can be misleading.

 

[Bio]

What are the highest risk factors for us specifically that would clog arteries? I know we talk about high blood pressure, kidneys, etc.

I assume cholesterol which AAS affects but I've also read that cholesterol can be misleading.

Certain drugs like Anavar. When I got into this game pharmaceutical Anavar by Searle came in 2.5mg tablets. Now UG tabs are 50mg and men and women use quite a bit which will drop HDL into single digits pretty quick. Again, dosage and duration are the key. Anavar pre-contest when a bodybuilder is eating the cleanest will have less of a negative effect due to the diet.

Considering heart disease is the number one killer over all cancers combined, the general precautions that any of us should follow regarding an inflammatory diet should be followed. Another would be the genetic component. That's why I think getting testing done even at a younger age, if you're in this game, and have risk factors is important. It's just a proactive test like blood work.

 

[qbkilla]

Certain drugs like Anavar. When I got into this game pharmaceutical Anavar by Searle came in 2.5mg tablets. Now UG tabs are 50mg and men and women use quite a bit which will drop HDL into single digits pretty quick. Again, dosage and duration are the key. Anavar pre-contest when a bodybuilder is eating the cleanest will have less of a negative effect due to the diet.

Considering heart disease is the number one killer over all cancers combined, the general precautions that any of us should follow regarding an inflammatory diet should be followed. Another would be the genetic component. That's why I think getting testing done even at a younger age, if you're in this game, and have risk factors is important. It's just a proactive test like blood work.

I've definitely heard about anavar being bad for cholesterol. What are your views on cholesterol lab work in general and how indicative it is of potential problems? I've seen mentioned on the boards at times cholesterol readings aren't an accurate way to gauge potential problems. Maybe this is why we hear about calcium score more?

I remember when I started in about 03 it was mostly hg gear on the market and those 2.5 mg tabs. Then ug labs took over and we started to see higher dosages and cheaper var up to 50 mg. Initially was common to think they were selling low dosed dbol as var but now days with the testing I guess most labs are legit. The pharmacy 2.5 my were crazy expensive. Don't recall if there were lots of fakes like the Thai pink dbol and green drol ( British dispensary) but I'd imagine so.

 

[Reno911]

What are your views on cholesterol lab work in general and how indicative it is of potential problems? I've seen mentioned on the boards at times cholesterol readings aren't an accurate way to gauge potential problems.

I'd say keep an eye on APO B, HS-CRP, and Homocysteine as well. Also, your HDL/Trig ratio Trigs ideally no more than double your HDL. If your HDL takes a hit on cycle get those Trigs down.