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Staying away from Testosterone?

warlock

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People are stating their opinion on how they personally want to look and how they think others should look and then stating those opinions as facts. I'd love to come in here and say "Tren, and Halotestin are totally safe"....and if you went according to the mirror they are. According to the mirror Tren and Halotestin are the safest drugs you can take. You look awesome, rock hard and lean. Obviously the insides tell a different story. People dont want to use testosterone because they dont like the look. I GET IT! But if you want to get down to brass tacks and look at things longevity and health wise....the truth is pretty darn obvious. Madg you are using guys from the 70's and 80's as your arguing point on health and look. And your darn right...Padilla and Coe and Ross and a whole bunch of other guys in the 70's and 80's went low test and high anabolics. But you are putting "health" in that equation. Well lets look at that shall we? Padilla was freaking awesome. I saw him compete in the Night of Champions back in early 90's in Yates first show. Coe was a teenage phenom. You are taking guys with phenomenal genetics and making an argument on what they used as the argument. Do you know how many 5'3 bodybuilders tried to look like Padilla? Hundreds of thousands? How many ended up looking like him? 12 maybe? {Priest, Lewis, Henry, Terra, and a handful more)....obviously genetics created that bodybuilder....regardless of his drug choices. But you are leaving out a main cog in all this.....how is what they did healthier? Padilla went the low test high anabolic route and had quadruple bypass in his late 40's. Coe went low test and high anabolics and had quadruple bypass in his 50's. Don Ross went low test high anabolics and dropped dead of a heart attack in his late 40's. A slew of low test high anabolic bodybuilders from the 70's ended up with heart problems.

This isnt going to go well in here at all...AT FREAKING ALL. I do know this.....from looking at (its got to be over 1000 bodybuilders blood work now) that people on low testosterone dosages, and low gh dosages have virtually no changes in their bloodwork. With all PEDS blood pressure must be kept in check but with testosterone in low dosages what you get is a slightly higher hematocrit and a slightly lower HDL and thats about it. Now if you want to talk about Testosterone bloodwork compared to "steroids that are considered safe" bloodwork? Everyone on this thread will be pissed at this but it the g'damn truth....you cannot make the argument because "you like a look"....and want to continue having that look and will argue vehemently because you want to use "X compound"...instead of testosterone when "X compound" is not even remotely as safe as testosterone. For example Anavar for some fracked up reason got a reputation as "SAFE" all these years. Its about the unsafest long time usage drug out there. And virtually any person in here doing 50mg of anavar a day who checks their bloodwork about 6 weeks in on that will quickly see lipid numbers that would make a doctor say "WTF are you doing?".....I keep running into physique competitors online that have coaches having them use anavar year round and their HDL is plummetted and LDL/TRigs skyrocketed. Because these coaches are telling them "Anavar is healthy and safe".....Ive had about 6 guys in this last year who are physique guys who have used anavar longterm who i told to get coronary calcium scores......they are all coming back escalated. The last guy is 34 years old and his CCS is 383. 383!!! the guy is 34! Thats a cardiac event waiting to happen by the time he is 38-42.

I had another bodybuilder who was known for his longterm usage of "healthy anabolics" {One of the most famous people in the sport}.....come to me because his coronary calcium score was 340 and wondered if I could get him down from that. So much for mans tweaking of the parent hormone (testosterone) to make it safer. If anyone took the time to get bloodwork smack dab in the middle of these so called safe anabolics (noone does that)....they would be shocked to see that a great many of them are really detrimental to longterm lipid health. It is what it is. <---is that statement going to be popular in this forum....hell no its not....some people are seething right now reading that because again 'they want a certain look" and here comes Dante Trudel pissing on the apple cart.

So in my opinion this all comes down to an opinion on a look that you want vs what you are wanting to risk health wise...it really does. My opinion is this: if health is the highest importance in this sport. Low dose testosterone and low dose gh are the two things you can do pretty much the rest of your life and not have very detrimental aspects to your bloodwork. If someone was going to add an anabolic to that then maybe primobolan could be added to that (but again that would have to be proven out by bloodwork). Thats why i have stated time and time again in this forum.....try to spend the longer periods that you ar putting on size with a test dosage (while keeping bp in check) with low dose gh (so you can eat enough food to get larger but remain lean) and again with maybe primobolan....and if you got a contest in sight "YOU GOT TO DO WHAT YOU GOT TO DO"....and that means using drugs that are in no way conducive to health. Never ever use orals offseason...only precontest or before something important you want to look good for and keep that usage fairly short.
If thats not acceptable for someone then so be it.....they are free to do whatever they want and to take whatever health risks they want. But the bioidentical hormones have shown time and time again that in low dosages they are pretty safe healthwise. There is not a mass epidemic of people dying who are on TRT but again thats the bioidentical hormone of the body ....id rather see someone use 300mg of testosterone longterm than ever use 50mg of anavar longterm 1000 times over. But again i have always had people test bloodwork smack dab in the middle of things....but 99% of people dont do that....they get off and go "hey im healthy"...your supposed to be healthy off. Its the 48 weeks of the year that you were on that counted toward longterm health.
Madg you said something about guys using testosterone but you are using guys with insane genetics as your argument. If a guy has small arms genetically using anavar and deca over testosterone is not going to fix that. Guys like Serge Nubret with 6.5 inch wrists and 21 inch arms dont fall out of trees. Thats a genetic anomaly. So what are guys with subpar genetics supposed to do? Give up and take up golf? They are trying to even the playing field by putting on enough size they can compete.

Regardless of the above...everyone in this forum can do whatever they want with their look and their health. They can take chances and they can be uber health conscious. I dont have any stock in Testosterone Cypionate so i dont care what anyone does. I just have the opinion I have formed from looking at so many bbers health markers over the years that i have drawn the conclusion that testosterone in low dosages has been much safer than drugs thought of as "safe". Myself i would rather take tren and var and 150mg of test a week if it was a perfect world. But its not and that route would have dire consequences. I can differentiate my preference for a certain look over what i have come to know is the healthiest route of performance enhancement drugs. I truly believe as we go along here in years people are going to start seeing the validity of the parent compound in its safety compound instead of mans tweaking of that parent compound (which all came from the 60's pretty much)

Great post once again! We know everyone is different, but based on all the blood work you've seen over the years, what would you say is a "safe" off-season dose of testosterone and GH? Would you say up to 300mg test and 2-3 units GH would be the most one can get away with before running into serious health issues? As to the primobolan on top of the test and GH, do you have a recommendation for dosing based on the info you've acquired over the years?

I do understand blood work and cardiovascular tests would be your best indicator, but was wondering if you could specify doses you have seen that worked for many as far as making gains and staying healthy while using these 3 compounds.
 

Sides

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Interesting study on Deca, the heart toxicity and (Co Q10) {I use Ubiquinol}

"Twenty-four Wistar albino rats were divided into equal four groups administered ND (nandrolone decanoate) weekly at (20 mg/kg) subcutaneously with and without coenzyme Q10 (10 mg/kg) orally every day for 4 weeks."

That's a lot of Deca, and a lot of Co Q10. That would equate to a 220 lb bodybuilder taking 2g of Deca per week, and 1g of Co Q10 daily for protective effect.

Hopefully most of us don't have to go that high with our doses. Still, it's good to know that Co Q10 may be helpful.
 

Elvia1023

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"Twenty-four Wistar albino rats were divided into equal four groups administered ND (nandrolone decanoate) weekly at (20 mg/kg) subcutaneously with and without coenzyme Q10 (10 mg/kg) orally every day for 4 weeks."

That's a lot of Deca, and a lot of Co Q10. That would equate to a 220 lb bodybuilder taking 2g of Deca per week, and 1g of Co Q10 daily for protective effect.

Hopefully most of us don't have to go that high with our doses. Still, it's good to know that Co Q10 may be helpful.

Very true. Although I am sure lower doses are still very effective. Moreover, the study used just q10 but the ubiquinol form is superior and you don't need as much. Even so I am still using 300mg per day (great performance in studies) whilst I run high deca. My cycle now is 450mg deca, 60mg test e and 60mg mast e every 3 days.
 

pickapeck

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"Twenty-four Wistar albino rats were divided into equal four groups administered ND (nandrolone decanoate) weekly at (20 mg/kg) subcutaneously with and without coenzyme Q10 (10 mg/kg) orally every day for 4 weeks."

That's a lot of Deca, and a lot of Co Q10. That would equate to a 220 lb bodybuilder taking 2g of Deca per week, and 1g of Co Q10 daily for protective effect.

Hopefully most of us don't have to go that high with our doses. Still, it's good to know that Co Q10 may be helpful.
There is a rough equation that is used to equate dosages to human from test animals. IIRC rats is about 8 grams rat/grams human so you have to divide by 8.
 

DOGGCRAPP

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"Twenty-four Wistar albino rats were divided into equal four groups administered ND (nandrolone decanoate) weekly at (20 mg/kg) subcutaneously with and without coenzyme Q10 (10 mg/kg) orally every day for 4 weeks."

That's a lot of Deca, and a lot of Co Q10. That would equate to a 220 lb bodybuilder taking 2g of Deca per week, and 1g of Co Q10 daily for protective effect.

Hopefully most of us don't have to go that high with our doses. Still, it's good to know that Co Q10 may be helpful.
Agree and someone check my math but the corresponding human dosage would be 3.225 mg/kg......There is a whole boatload of bodybuilders who believe in the deca only and in high amounts brought on by a certain individual in the sport. Heck i got a guy from my gym doing 2 grams of deca because of that certain guys writings. I just got a guy today asking me today on IG about (very known bb from England) recommendations of high deca and nothing else...... {Co Q10 or moreso Ubiquinol is pretty amazing in what it can do to counteract that damage}..... Ive been helping a known amateur who was the best bodybuilder (superheavyweight) in the USA a few years back who went into heart failure and the doctors told him to get ready for a compromised life (Ejection Fraction went down to low 20's %).....I have him back up now at 63 % with alot of high dose ubiquinol / pycnogenol, apigenin and a few other key things over the last few years. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20657530/ People always put huge thoughts in their next cycle but never the same amount of thought into what they can do to protect themselves during those cycles. People used to worry left and right about their livers....(screw the liver....it can happen but thats the last organ you need to worry about unless you oral yourself to death....it is probably the most resilient organ in the human body as far as coming back from damage...its pretty rare someone goes down in bodybuilding from liver problems)....but the heart? and the kidneys? Thats the two organs that undeniably get damaged from all this stuff. The problem is all the young guys dont have that "looking out for the future mentality" They just see muscle and leaness in the mirror and think "I look awesome i must be healthy" disregarding the sludgepit going on inside the body. There is alot that can be done supplement wise to turn around the road alot of young bodybuilders are on...but again most of the time it goes on deaf ears. 45 years old seems so far away from a 25 year old bodybuilder...but it really is a blink of an eye
 

Sides

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Agree and someone check my math but the corresponding human dosage would be 3.225 mg/kg......There is a whole boatload of bodybuilders who believe in the deca only and in high amounts brought on by a certain individual in the sport. Heck i got a guy from my gym doing 2 grams of deca because of that certain guys writings. I just got a guy today asking me today on IG about (very known bb from England) recommendations of high deca and nothing else...... {Co Q10 or moreso Ubiquinol is pretty amazing in what it can do to counteract that damage}..... Ive been helping a known amateur who was the best bodybuilder (superheavyweight) in the USA a few years back who went into heart failure and the doctors told him to get ready for a compromised life (Ejection Fraction went down to low 20's %).....I have him back up now at 63 % with alot of high dose ubiquinol / pycnogenol, apigenin and a few other key things over the last few years. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20657530/ People always put huge thoughts in their next cycle but never the same amount of thought into what they can do to protect themselves during those cycles. People used to worry left and right about their livers....(screw the liver....it can happen but thats the last organ you need to worry about unless you oral yourself to death....it is probably the most resilient organ in the human body as far as coming back from damage...its pretty rare someone goes down in bodybuilding from liver problems)....but the heart? and the kidneys? Thats the two organs that undeniably get damaged from all this stuff. The problem is all the young guys dont have that "looking out for the future mentality" They just see muscle and leaness in the mirror and think "I look awesome i must be healthy" disregarding the sludgepit going on inside the body. There is alot that can be done supplement wise to turn around the road alot of young bodybuilders are on...but again most of the time it goes on deaf ears. 45 years old seems so far away from a 25 year old bodybuilder...but it really is a blink of an eye

Yeah, that certain guy recommending the Deca only cycles gets a lot of attention on social media, but he is doing a lot of damage to men's health that will only show up in bloodwork or down the road. But it's hard to tell that to young guys who only care about muscle. Everybody sadly has to learn it for themselves the hard way. I remember doing Deca only cycles back in 1994-5 myself, and although I gained muscle, I had no libido, had ED, developed a lump of unilateral gyno, and who knows what it was doing to my health. But at that point, all I cared about was getting bigger and more muscular. Young guys today, same thing. Time marches on, the world turns, but people stay the same, and make the same mistakes over and over again.

I will have to start the ubiquinol/pycnogenol/apigenin myself. It does seem like the blink of an eye looking back to my 25 year old self, and I was just looking at contest photos today. But in reality I'm almost 53, and am lucky to have made it this long with all the stupid things I've done as my own lab rat over the years. I'm blessed to have made it this far, but I know I have to change to keep receiving the blessing.
 

Elvia1023

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Yeah, that certain guy recommending the Deca only cycles gets a lot of attention on social media, but he is doing a lot of damage to men's health that will only show up in bloodwork or down the road. But it's hard to tell that to young guys who only care about muscle. Everybody sadly has to learn it for themselves the hard way. I remember doing Deca only cycles back in 1994-5 myself, and although I gained muscle, I had no libido, had ED, developed a lump of unilateral gyno, and who knows what it was doing to my health. But at that point, all I cared about was getting bigger and more muscular. Young guys today, same thing. Time marches on, the world turns, but people stay the same, and make the same mistakes over and over again.

I will have to start the ubiquinol/pycnogenol/apigenin myself. It does seem like the blink of an eye looking back to my 25 year old self, and I was just looking at contest photos today. But in reality I'm almost 53, and am lucky to have made it this long with all the stupid things I've done as my own lab rat over the years. I'm blessed to have made it this far, but I know I have to change to keep receiving the blessing.

That's precisely why I included small doses of test and mast. It makes a massive difference and I feel great on this cycle. I started experimenting with higher deca years ago. That was mainly because higher test never felt good for me. Whilst deca is certainly not healthy I think many are regularly using much worse compounds (tren for example). I also take certain supps/drugs to mitigate any damage caused. I use things such as valsartan, ubiquinol, garlic, pomegranate and fish oil etc. I have also used pycnogenol on/off for over a decade and I think that is a great supplement as well which I see you may be starting yourself.
 

Sides

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That's precisely why I included small doses of test and mast. It makes a massive difference and I feel great on this cycle. I started experimenting with higher deca years ago. That was mainly because higher test never felt good for me. Whilst deca is certainly not healthy I think many are regularly using much worse compounds (tren for example). I also take certain supps/drugs to mitigate any damage caused. I use things such as valsartan, ubiquinol, garlic, pomegranate and fish oil etc. I have also used pycnogenol on/off for over a decade and I think that is a great supplement as well which I see you may be starting yourself.

I suppose it's all on a kind of health spectrum, with TRT levels of test and HGH on one end, Deca somewhere around the middle, and Tren and heavy doses of 17-AA orals on the opposite end of the spectrum. We all do what we have to do to accomplish our goals, but the more we can stay close to the healthy end of the spectrum, the better off we'll be in the long run.

I take 80mg of Valsartan per day myself, although my blood pressure is still a little high, so I probably should try adding Nebivolol or something similar. I've been taking fish oils for decades, and credit those and daily aspirin for keeping me alive despite all the stupid things I have done. I eat plenty of cruciferous vegetables and eat blueberries, strawberries, blackberries, cherries etc as a sweet snack at night.

I'll have to start the ubiquinol, pycnogenol, garlic, and other supps myself, looking to guys like @DOGGCRAPP and you as examples. When I was younger, all I wanted was to be huge and muscular. But now that I'm older with a family, I suppose I have to be responsible and do the healthy things, damn it LOL.
 

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One other interesting thing from it, my joints feel better, like lubed effect that deca gave me (dunno if that’s a coincidence since they’re both progesterone drugs?) but deca was the drug that gave me this lingering gyno in the first place years ago and now progesterone is clearing it up. To add to the mundfuck, joint effect was the REASON I took deca in the first place lol - I wished I had just known about running test/prog back then :)
Does the progesterone cream increase or decrease your sex drive?
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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Does the progesterone cream increase or decrease your sex drive?
Maybe slight increase. My sex drive has always been pretty strong and I’ve never had a problem on TRT level like I am at now. Only thing that ever fucked with my sex drive was tren and deca.

My balls got a little larger and my cumshots (lol) got bigger kinda like HCG.

All that is so minor though compared to the effect it’s had on my mood. I just feel tons more patient and calm. Legit just a happier person.
 

supermofo

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It would be AWESOME if Dante :) would put something together stating specifically what enhanced and TRT using members here should get tested for and what we should have tested and look for in our bloodwork, in order to avoid and address possible health issues. This, in my opinion would be priceless information and may even help save a life or few if it could be made a permanent sticky (if allowed) for us all to reference. Probably wishful thinking on my part but can't hurt to say it out loud.

I'm 47 and try to stay healthy, keep my bodyweight at 240 or less (as long I have visible abs) and using only Dr. prescribed TRT and I would love to know what specifically to have tested and look for to hopefully catch and avoid or at least mitigate any serious health issues, if at all possible. I have the standard cbc and a few other things checked but Dante and a couple of other very experienced intelligent men on here know specifically and exactly what we should have checked in order to help keep ourselves as safe as possible in our not always so healthy hobbies and endeavors, weather or not you choose high dose, low dose, test, no test, etc... I'm a big fan of Dante and his methods and respect, trust, and appreciate what he has to say.
 

Elvia1023

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It would be AWESOME if Dante :) would put something together stating specifically what enhanced and TRT using members here should get tested for and what we should have tested and look for in our bloodwork, in order to avoid and address possible health issues. This, in my opinion would be priceless information and may even help save a life or few if it could be made a permanent sticky (if allowed) for us all to reference. Probably wishful thinking on my part but can't hurt to say it out loud.

I'm 47 and try to stay healthy, keep my bodyweight at 240 or less (as long I have visible abs) and using only Dr. prescribed TRT and I would love to know what specifically to have tested and look for to hopefully catch and avoid or at least mitigate any serious health issues, if at all possible. I have the standard cbc and a few other things checked but Dante and a couple of other very experienced intelligent men on here know specifically and exactly what we should have checked in order to help keep ourselves as safe as possible in our not always so healthy hobbies and endeavors, weather or not you choose high dose, low dose, test, no test, etc... I'm a big fan of Dante and his methods and respect, trust, and appreciate what he has to say.

All that info has been posted many times on here over the years. I understand wanting it all in one place but there are many threads of info on blood tests and what to look for. They can easily be searched on here you just need to put the effort in. Even a google search will highlight all the mains things to monitor. I recall posters such as Nothuman, Gotgame, Dante, myself, Mynameisjeff, Stewie, Maldorf, Knight9 and Swifto posting about blood work and health a lot.

I am not having a go at all I just think if the information if that important to you then you will put the effort in to find it. You asked Dante and I recall him posting about what you ask for multiple times on here over the years it's just not in a sticky thread but a simple search and some time will enable you to find all the information you seek.
 

supermofo

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All that info has been posted many times on here over the years. I understand wanting it all in one place but there are many threads of info on blood tests and what to look for. They can easily be searched on here you just need to put the effort in. Even a google search will highlight all the mains things to monitor. I recall posters such as Nothuman, Gotgame, Dante, myself, Mynameisjeff, Stewie, Maldorf, Knight9 and Swifto posting about blood work and health a lot.

I am not having a go at all I just think if the information if that important to you then you will put the effort in to find it. You asked Dante and I recall him posting about what you ask for multiple times on here over the years it's just not in a sticky thread but a simple search and some time will enable you to find all the information you seek.
Yes and I've read many of these posts that you are referring to. Thanks for for your input.
 

88shots

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This is the same guy who did videos stating as a fact that DHB was extremely liver toxic, all without citing any studies or blood work. He is also like 6'1" and still wears lifts and boots and has his hair styled to make himself look taller. I am no one to judge people about insecurities, but that just seems a little odd. Some of his content is pretty amusing though... Like Doucette you just gotta sometimes take what they are saying mostly for entertainment value.
Doucette is a boss.The guy has great information.He practices what he preaches.He’s healthy and looks great for his age.I have lots of respect for that man.

He is also very intelligent .He understands business and the 3 things you need to be successful on YouTube.

1) (most important) Value - Any smart business man understands that value is the most important.All those free videos with excellent information give him value.This creates opportunity to get clients and make damn good money.

2)Personality- If your boring most people don’t want to listen even if you have solid information.He has lots of energy and personality.I doubt he’s like that in his everyday life.

3)Controversy-If you look the people he makes videos about on YouTube all have 500k and up subscribers.He does that to get the masses to watch what he has to say about someone they follow.He has 1 million subscribers now.He has cook book.A protein powder and other supplements soon to be released.

You have to remember that 95% of people know practically nothing about nutrition nor care to learn.If I screamed Marco nutrient in crowded movie theater I bet at most 2 people would know what it means never mind a micro nutrient.This board has a lot of members who understand a good amount about nutrition and lifting and than there are some what I would call geniuses on this board.Most of you just see Greg as a guy with annoying voice screaming into a camera.I see a very smart man.Guy is racking in the green.

This needed to be explained to most of you.
 

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Great post once again! We know everyone is different, but based on all the blood work you've seen over the years, what would you say is a "safe" off-season dose of testosterone and GH? Would you say up to 300mg test and 2-3 units GH would be the most one can get away with before running into serious health issues? As to the primobolan on top of the test and GH, do you have a recommendation for dosing based on the info you've acquired over the years?

I do understand blood work and cardiovascular tests would be your best indicator, but was wondering if you could specify doses you have seen that worked for many as far as making gains and staying healthy while using these 3 compounds.
@DOGGCRAPP just to echo the above, from all the blood work results you’ve seen, whilst I appreciate its individual, what sort of upper end dose level are you seeing as safer on the body?
 

b-boy

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So, in your case, primo did exert downward pressure on your E2 as masteron is generally thought to? I'm only asking because I place more value on your experience than the generic guy on reddit. It almost seemed like overnight primo became an AI on reddit after one or two guys posted about that.
Almost all AAS are AI's technically! So yes primo is just as effective as masteron, even deca has AI properties
 

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I will say this cause i really like ProM

You can flame , you can laugh but this is the truth ...

You want and 80s physique? Anadrol and dboll , primo deca tren eq winny

Pick and oral and two injects , keep total at 1000-1500 mg , train the muscle not your joints , eat mod prot , mod carb , low fat and stay lean

You will build the best physique your genetics allow and look like a god

No test , gh , slin needed

Now all will start saying “ bro you cant be iffbb size with this “

Well ... lets see the ifbb size you have build then ...i am waiting

Most WILL NEVER get to that size be it high test low test blah blah

And 4 out of 5 who make it there WILL look like shit

So why not stay lean and healthy , llookinglike a statue and save you and your bank account ?

Much respect and love to all
Damn you sound like me sometimes....SCARY!
Of course no one is going to show you the great physiques they built with their over eating and blasting gear through the roof. None of them could hold @hawkmoon Gym bag...LOL (sorry but it's true, prove me wrong)
 

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@TheOtherOne55 you have posted pics, you practice what you preach so 👏 respect to you.
 

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I believe it’s safer and more effective to use test in every cycle. Dosages required will vary among each individual. Therefore, it’s up to each individual to find what works best for their body chemistry.
 

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