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Staying away from Testosterone?

TheOtherOne55

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Aren't you stating opinions as facts aswell?
It's like you just know every pros true cycle.
I see your anecdotal evidence...
And you're talking about guys anecdotal evidence.
What about the physiques built off lower test and higher anabolics? You're just gonna dismiss them as opinion?
I guess, but im just going off of 1000s of reviews and discussions and all of that.
My push on the last poster was, "give me somethign other than, I HATE IT and IT SUCKS."
I dont know any SHW big guys who didnt have to push test.
I'm just talking like majority here. The fact is, the top amateurs and pros and guys who just look great that i talk to about cycling HAD to do test to get there. I guess they couldve tried other ways, but I dont know anyone who went the No test route. Yes, its getting popular in the past decade but if that viewpoint could change the game, it still hasn't.

Most BBers realize they NEED it if they want to get to higher and higher levels of LBM.
That's the social norm or dogma as of right now in BBing.
I also realize that LOTS of guys are sensitive to it and dont like how they feel. Even then, they might not like the look, but I would be willing to bet if they stayed the course, they would end up being lb for lb larger doing the test route.

And i wont dismiss the high anabolic, no/low test route. That was the classic guys from the 70s and what do we think about them. Yeah, they look great but they are lacking in size and lots of other stuff. Once test came up, it was a different BBing game.
Other then those guys, people have left that way of thinking. Yes, there are people that cannot do or dont enjoy high test, but IMO they are the minority.
 

Lilleo187

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I'm not trying to argue with anybody but test wasnt used in the golden era. They were huge back then without TEST.
 

Lilleo187

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I guess, but im just going off of 1000s of reviews and discussions and all of that.
My push on the last poster was, "give me somethign other than, I HATE IT and IT SUCKS."
I dont know any SHW big guys who didnt have to push test.
I'm just talking like majority here. The fact is, the top amateurs and pros and guys who just look great that i talk to about cycling HAD to do test to get there. I guess they couldve tried other ways, but I dont know anyone who went the No test route. Yes, its getting popular in the past decade but if that viewpoint could change the game, it still hasn't.

Most BBers realize they NEED it if they want to get to higher and higher levels of LBM.
That's the social norm or dogma as of right now in BBing.
I also realize that LOTS of guys are sensitive to it and dont like how they feel. Even then, they might not like the look, but I would be willing to bet if they stayed the course, they would end up being lb for lb larger doing the test route.

And i wont dismiss the high anabolic, no/low test route. That was the classic guys from the 70s and what do we think about them. Yeah, they look great but they are lacking in size and lots of other stuff. Once test came up, it was a different BBing game.
Other then those guys, people have left that way of thinking. Yes, there are people that cannot do or dont enjoy high test, but IMO they are the minority.
Arnold, lou, mentzer....there werent huge guys in the 70s? Yea not like today. But not everybody wants to be a 300 mass monster. It's not eye appealing at all. Expecially with that extended gut most of them have.
 

MR. BMJ

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I'm not trying to argue with anybody but test wasnt used in the golden era. They were huge back then without TEST.
That's not true. You are speaking in absolutes, and it's false.

Some did, and some didn't....on 'some' of their use during the year(s). Many used test, but didn't use it all the time for every cycle like it is used now.
 

Kaladryn

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Test brings about more sides, especially the sides of other compounds.
Old pros thought test was dirty.
I think it's the opposite, I think test has less sides, and I think a base of test protects you from the sides of other compounds. If test is considered "dirty" (I've never heard this in 30 years of using AAS) it's because of E2.
 

cage99

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I like deca better. Gives a better look imo. And doesnt bloat like test does.

If I didn’t have test in my system, my junk would be absolutely useless… Test is ALWAYS a base and my primary!!!!

Cage
 

juggy38

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I’ve been on this fucking forum a decade, and I still don’t know what to believe.

I’m at the point now I think “genetics” for SIZE…not shape/symmetry/looks….is genetically predisposed to how much drugs you can tolerate.

Basically I’m calling myself and every bodybuilder full of shit.

You are 200, 230, 260, 300…because your genetics and body can tolerate 500mg drugs, 750mg drugs plus GH, 1.5G drugs + A Lot GH, 3g drugs + fuck ton of GH.

We all know how to not train fucking retarded, we all know how much food to eat, we all know when to not jerk off….whoops….


Not taking away from Luki, TOO55, kaldryn, and many many others.


But let’s face it, we know what is required to sacrifice to get to XXX goal….but that just isn’t in the cards for some.

We stress over training splits, volume, macros, dose timing…..


Honestly…..YOU…right now reading this….if you could tolerate, function, and give up what would be required to run on 3g anabolics, 10iu GH a day, and 20-30iu slin per day…..you would not be on this board asking what’s the best middle delt isolation exercise.

P.S…im tipsy and lost two patients today so I don’t care about your “quotes”. Total calories and drugs reign supreme.

Over and out. I love y’all 😘 ha
 

LATS

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I can't add much to this existing thread but can tell you I've talked to quite a few " golden Era " pros over 30 years and most did not partake in using test or used very little of it.. they did consider it " dirty".. dirty in a sense of estrogen issues and prostate issues and they didn't have the means to combat it..that term was used quite a bit.. you can see those back in the day that suddenly for gyno after a decade of use had more than likely upped the test.. there was not effective anti e has we have today.. Metz and Columbo come to mind in the early 80s as those that mysteriously got gyno after years of anabolic use..

That being said I would always have a test base.. even if it's just 150 to 200 mgs a week.. you will get great gains with mast.. primo.. npp.. anavar.. etc when used in the right amounts.. but we have to understand that most today are using 600mg of test minimum in their cycles.. but the same people are using only 300 to 400 primo and saying it's weak.. try using the same mg per mg of other compounds as you woukd test and then come back and say how " weak" it is..

The great "test experiment " started in the later 80s.. it was cheap.. alot of mgs could be used for not much out of pocket .. brovel test 200 out of Mexico could be obtained for 20 bucks if you knew the right people.. badly underdosed but many took a bottle a week.. it usually ran 120 to 130 mgs a cc.. but people made gains.. then anti es became a bit easier to get and the dosing upward continued.

Rex feral told a story once about how a pro jim Gaubert once upped his test to 800mg and those at golds Venice thought he was crazy.. that was in the late 80s or very early 90s.. Rex might have to chime in here..

I had talked to Greg deferro a couple times and he even stated that he hardly touched test in his competitive days and only increased his test because it was cheap to do so.. andcthat was after he already retired.. there is also a 212 pro out of Europe who has stated on other boards he doesn't do test.. he diffinitely doesn't lack size..

So no.. test is not " needed".. guys got bigger by increasing their total androgen mgs over the decades and adding gh.. slin etc.. using test was a easy way to increase androgen and total mgs in a cheap and effective manner..
 
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TheOtherOne55

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You are 200, 230, 260, 300…because your genetics and body can tolerate 500mg drugs, 750mg drugs plus GH, 1.5G drugs + A Lot GH, 3g drugs + fuck ton of GH.

We all know how to not train fucking retarded, we all know how much food to eat, we all know when to not jerk off….whoops….

Not taking away from Luki, TOO55, kaldryn, and many many others.

But let’s face it, we know what is required to sacrifice to get to XXX goal….but that just isn’t in the cards for some.

We stress over training splits, volume, macros, dose timing…..

Honestly…..YOU…right now reading this….if you could tolerate, function, and give up what would be required to run on 3g anabolics, 10iu GH a day, and 20-30iu slin per day…..you would not be on this board asking what’s the best middle delt isolation exercise.
Yeah, the genetics of how many g's you can take plays a small part...

But its not that, its the genetics of EATING that separates everyone.
Believe me....EVERYONE can take a gram or 2. The difference is that only about 10-20% who take those 2 grams can actually eat enough food on a consistent enough schedule to maximize that. Getting to that size is about being uncomfortable eating the majoritttty of the year. 90% of guys are not willing to do that.
 

juggy38

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Yeah, the genetics of how many g's you can take plays a small part...

But its not that, its the genetics of EATING that separates everyone.
Believe me....EVERYONE can take a gram or 2. The difference is that only about 10-20% who take those 2 grams can actually eat enough food on a consistent enough schedule to maximize that. Getting to that size is about being uncomfortable eating the majoritttty of the year. 90% of guys are not willing to do that.


Very true. This just slips my mind, as a former fat ass, I can literally put away 3,500-4,000 of ground beef and rice and not blink. I’ve always had to track calories, as if I ate “when hungry” I’d be obese.

Well…as long as I have that sugar free bbq sauce or sugar free ketchup
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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Yeah, the genetics of how many g's you can take plays a small part...

But its not that, its the genetics of EATING that separates everyone.
Believe me....EVERYONE can take a gram or 2. The difference is that only about 10-20% who take those 2 grams can actually eat enough food on a consistent enough schedule to maximize that. Getting to that size is about being uncomfortable eating the majoritttty of the year. 90% of guys are not willing to do that.
Amen brother. I realized that quick. My stomach just can’t fit the food I’d need to be huge. I’ve stretched it some but still I’m no good at eating high volume.
 

WSCFGU

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Nice thread, doing blood workout on high test is good to look at data and match that with how you feel and look. What lab numbers do you guys feel good at.

1200mg of test a week brings me to about 13,700 to 14,200. 1 25mg aromasin added beings my e2 to about low 80s.

What numbers in the lab are matching your guys test dosages?

hct
Rbc
Alt

Only slightly elevated

HDL actually improves from low test and high anabolics

WS
 

Kaladryn

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Yeah, the genetics of how many g's you can take plays a small part...

But its not that, its the genetics of EATING that separates everyone.
Believe me....EVERYONE can take a gram or 2. The difference is that only about 10-20% who take those 2 grams can actually eat enough food on a consistent enough schedule to maximize that. Getting to that size is about being uncomfortable eating the majoritttty of the year. 90% of guys are not willing to do that.
Agreed, eating is the biggest part, you can even make extraordinary gains over time moderate amounts of gear if food is always on point. This means not trying to stay lean all the time as well. There are a lot of eating disorders in bodybuilding that are holding people back.

I also don't think most people have the training figured out either. Pushing too much weight is common (ego lifting), massive overtraining is common, undertraining is common as well. Basically, most bodybuilders find a "formula" that works well for them and then stick to that, forever. The game is much more complex and nuanced than that if you want to keep growing 30, 40, 60, 80lbs past your 'genetic limits'.

A quick personal story, I found myself at a plateau in my mid-20s, I hadn't really made any gains in a year. At this point, I completely changed my training style and continued to gain another 30-35lbs over the next couple of years. I didn't add more drugs and my diet was already on point during this time. I didn't realize it at the time, I thought I was training perfectly, but looking back I realized that my training was not intense enough and my volume was way too high.

Training is huge and I don't think any of us are training perfectly, we all have room for improvement, AND how you train has to adapt over time, it can remain constant.
 

LATS

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Agreed, eating is the biggest part, you can even make extraordinary gains over time moderate amounts of gear if food is always on point. This means not trying to stay lean all the time as well. There are a lot of eating disorders in bodybuilding that are holding people back.

I also don't think most people have the training figured out either. Pushing too much weight is common (ego lifting), massive overtraining is common, undertraining is common as well. Basically, most bodybuilders find a "formula" that works well for them and then stick to that, forever. The game is much more complex and nuanced than that if you want to keep growing 30, 40, 60, 80lbs past your 'genetic limits'.

A quick personal story, I found myself at a plateau in my mid-20s, I hadn't really made any gains in a year. At this point, I completely changed my training style and continued to gain another 30-35lbs over the next couple of years. I didn't add more drugs and my diet was already on point during this time. I didn't realize it at the time, I thought I was training perfectly, but looking back I realized that my training was not intense enough and my volume was way too high.

Training is huge and I don't think any of us are training perfectly, we all have room for improvement, AND how you train has to adapt over time, it can remain constant.
Agree.. the simple fact of the matter is many manipulate their training around the dosage.. not the dosage around their training.. in other words if you are taking enough days off.. recuperating.. not ego lifting.. and eating near perfect for your situation then not much gear is needed.. BUT.. no one should be adjusting gear upwards until training and eating are perfect.. you must be honest with yourself.. adjust the variables that need adjusting before ever filling more into a syringe.. you'd be surprise how little gear can go a long way if those variables are in place..
 

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