Staying on cycle forever

[Aikman56]

Hey you’re the only guy on this thread who’s an actual pro the rest of us are just wannabes who wish we were pro’s

So now who’s the suckers

Brother, I just picked the right show!

 

[traininsane11]

Also worth noting (someone in keeping with the recent thread on Elliot Dermond who seems to be an ultimate extremist”

But talking specifically about competitive bodybuilding you will get plenty of guys with the mentality of “I don’t care about the price to pay I will do whatever it takes to win” now this is somewhat a pointless mentality as there’s nothing you can do about genetics BUT let’s assume the person at that level is against others of similar genetics and it does come down to who did the most

Are you willing to do what it takes to beat that guy? Now that may mean doing less
Extreme stuff but much more intelligently it will be super individual

But as a whole what I’m saying is it’s an extreme sport and can attract extreme mentalities which don’t often align with health and longevity so you’ve got to decide what you want from it and how you want to go about it

 

[Zamun]

I done 10 year straight no cruise but i not megadose

No problems and i done all tests plus ekgs etc

Not wven enlarged heart

Im anemic though so hematocrit always in range

Do you run mostly benign stuff? Test/primo or stuff like tren/orals

 

[hawkmoon]

Since @luki7788 brought it up I'll tell you guys my take.

I have been "on" solid since 2018 when I started competing again. I was off from 1991 to 2008 (one run for 8 weeks in 1995, some prohormones in 2007).
In the old days I did time on=time off.

I may dip to 300 at the lowest, but I am usually at 5-600.
While I have experimentally pushed upwards - this year as high as 2+ grams for a few weeks - I usually keep my "push" dosages around a gram.
I am almost 230 while very lean, barely 5'8" - that's enough.

I have been on self-administrated high trt (250-300mg weekly) since I was tested at 38. I am 56 soon.
Thanks to diet and meds my bloodwork is the best it has ever been. That clean bloodwork doesn't give me license to push harder, but rather confirmation that my strategy is sound.

If I decide next year that competing is over (done that more than once lol) I'll probably just do 3-400mg max - some test and a little anabolic, usually Deca.
250-300 is really perfect, but ya know I gotta be a bodybuilder

 

[traininsane11]

These are both somewhat unconfirmed but may well be some truth to them if so indicates what even the elites do at the top levels

On a podcast with AJ Simms (anabolic bodybuilding I believe) he mentioned that Jay cutler had told him what a lot of guys would do post contest is drop down to something like 1g of test and 1g of EQ for a few weeks (from memory I’m sure the podcast is still up there)

Neil hill told my friend when he started coaching branch for that one season many years back he asked branch what his baseline gear was and he said “a bottle of test year round” so maybe 2g

Now these guys are the extremes of muscularity but also the extremes of genetics so it may balance itself out somewhat to be slightly relatable

Again heresy but didn’t sound wildly OTT

 

[TheOtherOne55]

Joseph Pircher is a nice guy and i like the info he puts out. But he's also 5'11 and 222 on stage. Dude cannot talk because he's never been big to begin with. This is the LEAST AMOUNT OF GEAR ive been on in 2.5 years (I had to drop down to get my wife preg) but since then i've gained probably 20lbs of tissue. I'm on 1g of test right now, thats it. And this is my real cruise lol

As far as IF guys are doing this, yes. Guys are staying on year round. At truly big guy level is more of a rotating compounds, maybe drop down to where i'm at...but its never a cruise like TRT. You spend so much time taking steps forward, why would anyone go BACKWARDS for a bit? Similar to what luki said, you end up just getting back to where you werrreee. Again, if the goal is to try and grow, you basically need your body to get accustomed to the new size. Which means being here for quite a bit of time during the year. The idea of going from like 2g to 200mg and soft is just not reasonable.

I would say that with the recent addition of pharma drugs to BBers, this is a real thing to have GOOD BLOODWORK while blasting high doses. On 3g i have perfect bloodwork, my cardiologist said he couldnt even tell i was on anything. Was that a thing 15 or so years ago? No, it was probably impossible. High blood pressure and lipids would probably tear you apart. But with the medicine we have no, and if genetics are on your side (i'm a high tolerator in general) its definitely doable.

One thing i will say as someone who is actively trying to kinda lower their anabolic load. I DO think that if i could do it again i probaboy would take more cruises. Aside from the bloodwork thing (which hits some guys and misses others) I think the overall stress level and systemic inflammation is a real thing that needs to be backed down. When you're in grow grow mode all the time, you're just swollen, inflamed, etc. All of that is necessary when we want to grow as big as possible. But thats the shit that wrecks your arteries, midsection, etc. It doesnt need to be long. But I lean more to having clients back down their dose for 4-8 weeks twice a year maybe. Still enough gear where they dont lose size, but enough where their body FEELS different.

 

[buck]

one of the listeners in the YouTube comments brought this up. that is a good point. its not just labs and internal health. It's how heavy of a beating can your body take for how long before you need to pull back and cruise for a minute

My other thought is, it feels like nowadays, more and more people tend to not come off anyway, regardless of peptides lol. It's not like when I first started lurking around the boards and everyone was doing 8 wk cycles. Maybe 10 wks. I think a big factor has been TRT. Back then everyone was worried about coming off in order to recover natural test production. So we got in, hit it hard and got out. Nowadays, someone might start out with 300mg test, 300 mast and over time, build that out without as much pressure, feeling like they are on the clock

I have a feeling that many weren't honest about how long they were on a cycle decades ago. As that would have put them in a very bad light if they said they just lowered the dose and stayed on the cycle. Now people like to use trendy terms like cruise, TRT, TRT+to feel better when in actuality their T levels are over the top of the range. Which in my world is a cycle. Almost 25 years ago i started on a cycles for 20-22 weeks came off for 4-6 for blood work then went back on while using a gram + a week. Did that for over 10 going on 12 years. So i am not sure about how many people were going on and off years ago. I was off but only long enough to get into the normal range as i often used a mixture of esters.

 

[Yousef12O2]

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[Brocksamson2.0]

Joseph Pircher is a nice guy and i like the info he puts out. But he's also 5'11 and 222 on stage. Dude cannot talk because he's never been big to begin with. This is the LEAST AMOUNT OF GEAR ive been on in 2.5 years (I had to drop down to get my wife preg) but since then i've gained probably 20lbs of tissue. I'm on 1g of test right now, thats it. And this is my real cruise lol

As far as IF guys are doing this, yes. Guys are staying on year round. At truly big guy level is more of a rotating compounds, maybe drop down to where i'm at...but its never a cruise like TRT. You spend so much time taking steps forward, why would anyone go BACKWARDS for a bit? Similar to what luki said, you end up just getting back to where you werrreee. Again, if the goal is to try and grow, you basically need your body to get accustomed to the new size. Which means being here for quite a bit of time during the year. The idea of going from like 2g to 200mg and soft is just not reasonable.

I would say that with the recent addition of pharma drugs to BBers, this is a real thing to have GOOD BLOODWORK while blasting high doses. On 3g i have perfect bloodwork, my cardiologist said he couldnt even tell i was on anything. Was that a thing 15 or so years ago? No, it was probably impossible. High blood pressure and lipids would probably tear you apart. But with the medicine we have no, and if genetics are on your side (i'm a high tolerator in general) its definitely doable.

One thing i will say as someone who is actively trying to kinda lower their anabolic load. I DO think that if i could do it again i probaboy would take more cruises. Aside from the bloodwork thing (which hits some guys and misses others) I think the overall stress level and systemic inflammation is a real thing that needs to be backed down. When you're in grow grow mode all the time, you're just swollen, inflamed, etc. All of that is necessary when we want to grow as big as possible. But thats the shit that wrecks your arteries, midsection, etc. It doesnt need to be long. But I lean more to having clients back down their dose for 4-8 weeks twice a year maybe. Still enough gear where they dont lose size, but enough where their body FEELS different.

yea hard to take him seriously when he looks more like a mens physique competitor... with all do respect to mens physique lol

 

[Aikman56]

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Good Lord… Is there ever going to be a consensus on androgen receptor down/up regulation? All of the data that I’ve ever read said that it can happen but doesn’t necessarily happen and the additional androgens can make it up regulate AR protein levels… and I’m pretty sure that we’ve discussed on here more than once that any type of down regulation or de sensitivity is greatly overstated…Is Dave just stuck in 1980s science brain?

 

[bigzzz]

Dave is full of shit

 

[traininsane11]

Good Lord… Is there ever going to be a consensus on androgen receptor down/up regulation? All of the data that I’ve ever read said that it can happen but doesn’t necessarily happen and the additional androgens can make it up regulate AR protein levels… and I’m pretty sure that we’ve discussed on here more than once that any type of down regulation or de sensitivity is greatly overstated…Is Dave just stuck in 1980s science brain?

If you really want to suffer watch his documentary with probably the worst soundtrack ever made on repeat


“Jumbo palumbo”

Once you’ve watched it you’ll know

 

[alfresco]

Good Lord… Is there ever going to be a consensus on androgen receptor down/up regulation? All of the data that I’ve ever read said that it can happen but doesn’t necessarily happen and the additional androgens can make it up regulate AR protein levels… and I’m pretty sure that we’ve discussed on here more than once that any type of down regulation or de sensitivity is greatly overstated…Is Dave just stuck in 1980s science brain?

Agreed, there is no scientific evidence to support long-term anabolic steroid use, and the down regulation of receptors. It is purely anecdotal at this point in time. Of course you would never convince Dave of that. His mind seems to be pretty made up and it will be pretty much impossible for him to change his mind / unlearn anything . . . as with most people

 

[Jefe]

If you really want to suffer watch his documentary with probably the worst soundtrack ever made on repeat


“Jumbo palumbo”

Once you’ve watched it you’ll know

I had to quit halfway through.

deca, dbol, test

Dave at his best

FML.

 

[Ranchhand]

Good Lord… Is there ever going to be a consensus on androgen receptor down/up regulation? All of the data that I’ve ever read said that it can happen but doesn’t necessarily happen and the additional androgens can make it up regulate AR protein levels… and I’m pretty sure that we’ve discussed on here more than once that any type of down regulation or de sensitivity is greatly overstated…Is Dave just stuck in 1980s science brain?

Dave is full of shit

If you really want to suffer watch his documentary with probably the worst soundtrack ever made on repeat


“Jumbo palumbo”

Once you’ve watched it you’ll know

Agreed, there is no scientific evidence to support long-term anabolic steroid use, and the down regulation of receptors. It is purely anecdotal at this point in time. Of course you would never convince Dave of that. His mind seems to be pretty made up and it will be pretty much impossible for him to change his mind / unlearn anything . . . as with most people

I had to quit halfway through.

deca, dbol, test

Dave at his best

FML.

Yes, Dave does not stay on top of the current trend of what's going on in PED research. He relies on his understanding from the 90's when he was top tier. Too bad, it makes him look like an idiot amounts people who stay on top of the evolution of PED research. I honestly feel bad for him, he means well but falls so short because he doesn't stay on top of the curve but still wants to put content out there to support his podcast. Such a dud at this point. But pay attention, rarely does anyone call him out, he has such a pull in the industry, him and John Romano created the very first podcast for BB. No one, including the top tier people in BB will call Dave's bluff, he's like a Manion in the world of BB.

You guys that know, will know what I'm talking about. There's the Manion dynasty, and then there's the dynasty's that follow.

 

[Aikman56]

Agreed, there is no scientific evidence to support long-term anabolic steroid use, and the down regulation of receptors. It is purely anecdotal at this point in time. Of course you would never convince Dave of that. His mind seems to be pretty made up and it will be pretty much impossible for him to change his mind / unlearn anything . . . as with most people

You are 100% right about that. I remember his “iron debate“ show had John Meadows on one time and it didn’t matter what John said, Dave spent the entire time pooh-poohing the value of intro workout nutrition. I’m not taking away from anything, the man ever accomplished, he’s done far more in bodybuilding than I ever will, but his intellectual inflexibility is nothing to be envied.

 

[Aikman56]

If you really want to suffer watch his documentary with probably the worst soundtrack ever made on repeat


“Jumbo palumbo”

Once you’ve watched it you’ll know

That was so cringe, I’m almost embarrassed to be alive…

 

[Liter O' Test]

Does anyone believe gear becomes less effective overtime without any breaks? along the lines of Homeostasis, myostatin etc.

 

[traininsane11]

Does anyone believe gear becomes less effective overtime without any breaks? along the lines of Homeostasis, myostatin etc.

In my opinion - no the gear remains the exact level of effectiveness but our response to it can change drastically due to a whole host of reasons that can be summed up to a degree as ‘plateaus’

 

[bbxtreme]

Does anyone believe gear becomes less effective overtime without any breaks? along the lines of Homeostasis, myostatin etc.

It’s not really the gear. It comes back to health. Let’s say you’re using 1g of test that is verified. That will always be the same.

What changes over time after CNS fatigue, mitochondria burnout, metabolic overload, etc is your health declines.

Your sleep and recovery begin to suffer slowly, inflammation begins to rise, BG creeps up and before you know it things start to stall. Those are the true enemies of a bodybuilder.

In a perfect world we keep ontop of our health, lifestyle, meds, supplements etc so try and out run those things. And if they eventually do catch up to us we adjust the dosage back until we get them all back in line.

That is the only secret of bodybuilding. It’s not TRT, cruises or whatever fad some YouTube guy wants to put out. It’s just agressive patience of trying to push while staying healthy enough to do so.

The only time guys come off is when they retire or their health forces it, and even that’s arguable.