Still Infertile

[Needmassquick]

Stimulation of sperm production by human chorionic gonadotropin after prolonged gonadotropin suppression in normal men - PubMed

The precise hormonal milieu required for quantitatively normal spermatogenesis in man is unclear. The authors previously have shown that both supraphysiologic dosages of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and physiologic dosages of human luteinizing hormone (hLH) can reinitiate sperm production...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Chronic human chorionic gonadotropin administration in normal men: evidence that follicle-stimulating hormone is necessary for the maintenance of quantitatively normal spermatogenesis in man - PubMed

The role of FSH in the maintenance of spermatogenesis in man is poorly understood. To determine whether normal serum levels of FSH are necessary for the maintenance of quantitatively normal spermatogenesis, we first studied the effect on sperm production of selective FSH deficiency induced by...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

For those interested, it looks like HCG does in fact suppress FSH production and so HCG alone will not result in increased FSH as one bodybuilding doctor falsely told me it would. This makes way more sense now. But yes HCG alone definitely increases sperm production in suppressed individuals.

The second study totally shocked me though, normal men actually see a MAJOR reduction of spermatogenesis with HCG alone. Meaning guys who are already normal and take HCG will have a lot less spermatogenesis. In light of seeing that HCG will suppress FSH this makes sense but I never would have guessed lower sperm count with HCG if a normal (non AAS/TRT using) male took it.

The doses used in these studies would suggest I should up my doses of each though

 

[bad rad]

From what I've heard in recent years the idea that there is desensitization is a myth and has never been proven. This is just what I've heard from several doctors now. I had one doctor who works with bodybuilders tell me that HCG alone will increase FSH, and I have no idea how that could be the case.

Regarding your statement that "testosterone stimulates the Sertoli cells to produce and mature sperm germ cells." if that is the case then why would exogenous testosterone (i.e. TRT or blasting) not stimulate the sertoli cells as well?

Exogenous test, SERMs, and Ai don't enter the testes very well. The hCG produces a lot of localized E2 used in high amounts. This is where the suppressive actions play out. Another reason why I prefer it at lower, daily doses. Less than 300iu daily didn't increase E2 compared to higher doses in one study I read.

 

[NEMSZ]

Does anyone have any information on using HMG by itself without HCG for fertility??

 

[Needmassquick]

Exogenous test, SERMs, and Ai don't enter the testes very well. The hCG produces a lot of localized E2 used in high amounts. This is where the suppressive actions play out. Another reason why I prefer it at lower, daily doses. Less than 300iu daily didn't increase E2 compared to higher doses in one study I read.

Gotcha. In that first study I posted the guys went from 500ng/dl total testosterone to 1220 on 200mg TRT to then 1810 with TRT + HCG. Estradiol went from 34 to 99 to 154 respectively so definitely messed with their estrogen.

I'm hoping 5000iu 3x per week is completely excessive and I could get similar spermatogensis with 1-2000iu 3x per week

The second study showed a huge benefit to using FSH but they were doing 100iu every single day versus my current 75iu 3x per week

 

[Matsuo Munefusa]

You’re not using enough HMG. It would be OK to skip HMG entirely but your case is severe so you need it for sure. Adding 25mg clomid EOD can help you too. Again totally not necessary in all cases but 0 sperm is severe.

Changing to an ED protocol for HCG/HMG will help you too. The medical community is only now catching on to what we all have figured out about injection frequency. Be careful trying to infer best practices from the methodology they use in studies.

 

[Needmassquick]

You’re not using enough HMG. It would be OK to skip HMG entirely but your case is severe so you need it for sure. Adding 25mg clomid EOD can help you too. Again totally not necessary in all cases but 0 sperm is severe.

Changing to an ED protocol for HCG/HMG will help you too. The medical community is only now catching on to what we all have figured out about injection frequency. Be careful trying to infer best practices from the methodology they use in studies.

When you say I'm not using enough HMG do you mean FSH? I'm using 75iu FSH 3x/week

Does anyone know why it's OK to use only 75iu HMG but people recommend even more FSH than that, when HMG is half LH and half FSH? Seems odd to me as you're getting way less FSH with the HMG.

How does Clomid help in this case? Isn't that working on the pituitary which will be totally shit down anyway right now with the HCG and FSH?

Thanks

 

[NEMSZ]

When you say I'm not using enough HMG do you mean FSH? I'm using 75iu FSH 3x/week

Does anyone know why it's OK to use only 75iu HMG but people recommend even more FSH than that, when HMG is half LH and half FSH? Seems odd to me as you're getting way less FSH with the HMG.

How does Clomid help in this case? Isn't that working on the pituitary which will be totally shit down anyway right now with the HCG and FSH?

Thanks

I think you’re reading it wrong with the HMG.. HMG is equal parts LH and FSH, meaning if you have a 75iu vial of HMG it contains 75iu of LH AND 75iu of FSH... So it’s 75iu of each...

You’re relying on HCG to stimulate LH and injecting FSH separately..

 

[Thappy]

When you say I'm not using enough HMG do you mean FSH? I'm using 75iu FSH 3x/week

Does anyone know why it's OK to use only 75iu HMG but people recommend even more FSH than that, when HMG is half LH and half FSH? Seems odd to me as you're getting way less FSH with the HMG.

How does Clomid help in this case? Isn't that working on the pituitary which will be totally shit down anyway right now with the HCG and FSH?

Thanks

That is heaps of FSH i think maybe switch to HMG in a month if no luck, i hate clomid cause of mental sides but its highly individual. Maybe try 25mg of clomid ed or eod before switching to HMG just to test the waters.

 

[Matsuo Munefusa]

When you say I'm not using enough HMG do you mean FSH? I'm using 75iu FSH 3x/week

Does anyone know why it's OK to use only 75iu HMG but people recommend even more FSH than that, when HMG is half LH and half FSH? Seems odd to me as you're getting way less FSH with the HMG.

How does Clomid help in this case? Isn't that working on the pituitary which will be totally shit down anyway right now with the HCG and FSH?

Thanks

You can get a degree studying the WHY if you want or you can follow protocols that have worked. There’s no real reason to know exactly why all the protocols work, right?

75 HMG (or FSH) is not ideal but anything is better than nothing so definitely at least stick with it. Like we have already agreed on just HCG works well for some but obviously some guys will need HMG/FSH. Some guys won’t recover or maybe they can in years of fertility drugs. Some guys never had sperm to begin with so no amount of drugs will restart what was never there :/

Have you ever taken clomid? I feel like if you had you wouldn’t ask why you need it. Too much can make you emotional/feel weird but a low dose you’ll be hard as a rock during sex and blow bigger loads in your girl. It works.

Search Gotgame on this site. He’s written a lot about his journey.

Good luck man

 

[Needmassquick]

I think you’re reading it wrong with the HMG.. HMG is equal parts LH and FSH, meaning if you have a 75iu vial of HMG it contains 75iu of LH AND 75iu of FSH... So it’s 75iu of each...

You’re relying on HCG to stimulate LH and injecting FSH separately..

Oh, if that's the case then you're right, I was reading that wrong. I thought it meant it was 37.5iu of each. That's a helpful clarification, thanks

That is heaps of FSH i think maybe switch to HMG in a month if no luck, i hate clomid cause of mental sides but its highly individual. Maybe try 25mg of clomid ed or eod before switching to HMG just to test the waters.

Is that heaps of FSH? What I'm finding in the literature is as high or even higher

You can get a degree studying the WHY if you want or you can follow protocols that have worked. There’s no real reason to know exactly why all the protocols work, right?

75 HMG (or FSH) is not ideal but anything is better than nothing so definitely at least stick with it. Like we have already agreed on just HCG works well for some but obviously some guys will need HMG/FSH. Some guys won’t recover or maybe they can in years of fertility drugs. Some guys never had sperm to begin with so no amount of drugs will restart what was never there :/

Have you ever taken clomid? I feel like if you had you wouldn’t ask why you need it. Too much can make you emotional/feel weird but a low dose you’ll be hard as a rock during sex and blow bigger loads in your girl. It works.

Search Gotgame on this site. He’s written a lot about his journey.

Good luck man

Yes you're right of course, I just like to understand the "why" behind it.

Nope never taken clomid. Thankfully I have no issues getting hard but if it'll help this process along then I'm certainly willing to try it.

Thank you

 

[Thappy]

Oh, if that's the case then you're right, I was reading that wrong. I thought it meant it was 37.5iu of each. That's a helpful clarification, thanks



Is that heaps of FSH? What I'm finding in the literature is as high or even higher



Yes you're right of course, I just like to understand the "why" behind it.

Nope never taken clomid. Thankfully I have no issues getting hard but if it'll help this process along then I'm certainly willing to try it.

Thank you

My 2 friends that used FSH only used half that dose 37iu 2-3 times a week and fertility back very quickly.

They didnt even get through a whole pen(pretty sure 900iu) before their partners were pregnant. both started sub 10k sperm one was 0

 

[Flex500]

I'm personally adjusting my protocol now to 37.5 iu HMG three times a week and 2,500 hcg three times a week and I'm going to do that the next six weeks. I had another sperm analysis done and I'm at 20mil with "ok" motility and morphology. Theoretically I could get my wife pregnant now but I'm hoping this protocol will get me to 100mil over the next 60-90 days.

My doctor said he thought I could do it without the HMG but in your case you were down to zero so I do think that probably changes the scenario and you may need to throw more at it.

 

[Needmassquick]

My 2 friends that used FSH only used half that dose 37iu 2-3 times a week and fertility back very quickly.

They didnt even get through a whole pen(pretty sure 900iu) before their partners were pregnant. both started sub 10k sperm one was 0

Wow, that is both encouraging and discouraging. Encouraging that it came back so quickly but discouraging that I'm still at 0 after 8 weeks

Could you tell me anything else about their history, were they on TRT? Did they literally take nothing except FSH? I've not heard of only taking FSH.

 

[Needmassquick]

I'm personally adjusting my protocol now to 37.5 iu HMG three times a week and 2,500 hcg three times a week and I'm going to do that the next six weeks. I had another sperm analysis done and I'm at 20mil with "ok" motility and morphology. Theoretically I could get my wife pregnant now but I'm hoping this protocol will get me to 100mil over the next 60-90 days.

My doctor said he thought I could do it without the HMG but in your case you were down to zero so I do think that probably changes the scenario and you may need to throw more at it.

Sounds like a lot of people are using higher doses of HCG than I am, might need that too. Did you stay on TRT during this time?

How long did it take you to get to 20 million and what was it before?

 

[Flex500]

Sounds like a lot of people are using higher doses of HCG than I am, might need that too. Did you stay on TRT during this time?

How long did it take you to get to 20 million and what was it before?

I really never drop below 10-15mil on trt or really any dose of test. Add in tren, deca, etc. and I'll drop to zero. I am not taking my TRT now at all. I start taking HCG a couple weeks before ceasing my 120mgs a week trt and then just roll with the HCG for a few weeks and then add in some HMG (but not much).

My gut tells me since I'm not starting from zero it just seems to go up quickly and my natural sperm levels/analysis is high/normal for count and like I said I don't go to zero on just test so this is always a bit of an easy fix.

 

[Flex500]

I won't keep taking that much HCG perpetually though. After 6-8 weeks I'll drop it to 1,000iu 3 times a week and at that point would increase the HMG.

 

[NEMSZ]

Sounds like a lot of people are using higher doses of HCG than I am, might need that too. Did you stay on TRT during this time?

How long did it take you to get to 20 million and what was it before?

Hey bro, I also wanted to add this to maybe ease your worries a little bit;

At 8 weeks, you’re still not at the end of a full sperm cycle.. It takes anywhere from 64-74 days to create new mature sperm ready to be released, so if you were down to 0 (zero) then you wouldn’t see the results of your protocol for another couple weeks...

I’d give it another 4 weeks and do another analysis and see where you’re at...

 

[Needmassquick]

Hey bro, I also wanted to add this to maybe ease your worries a little bit;

At 8 weeks, you’re still not at the end of a full sperm cycle.. It takes anywhere from 64-74 days to create new mature sperm ready to be released, so if you were down to 0 (zero) then you wouldn’t see the results of your protocol for another couple weeks...

I’d give it another 4 weeks and do another analysis and see where you’re at...

Thank you. I know my girl is really hoping to get pregnant soon and was upset to hear I was still at 0, I told her we need to manage expectations and it could take 6-9 months, I think we were both just thinking there would at least be something showing like 2-5mil.

Mildly funny, the doctor called me back right after we hung up and I thought by some miracle he was going to tell me he accidentally was reading the first semen analysis from months ago and that in reality my sperm count was higher....nope lol he was just calling me back to tell me to double the FSH.

Knowing it can take closer to 70 days / 10 weeks makes me more hopeful, but also then a little confusing how some guys are reporting getting pregnant within just 1-2 months of these drugs.

 

[Thappy]

Wow, that is both encouraging and discouraging. Encouraging that it came back so quickly but discouraging that I'm still at 0 after 8 weeks

Could you tell me anything else about their history, were they on TRT? Did they literally take nothing except FSH? I've not heard of only taking FSH.

both including myself perma blasting high test, tren, deca, npp for 2+ years.

We all took clomid, nolva, hcg and HMG or FSH(was called gonal F pens pretty sure)

 

[NEMSZ]

Thank you. I know my girl is really hoping to get pregnant soon and was upset to hear I was still at 0, I told her we need to manage expectations and it could take 6-9 months, I think we were both just thinking there would at least be something showing like 2-5mil.

Mildly funny, the doctor called me back right after we hung up and I thought by some miracle he was going to tell me he accidentally was reading the first semen analysis from months ago and that in reality my sperm count was higher....nope lol he was just calling me back to tell me to double the FSH.

Knowing it can take closer to 70 days / 10 weeks makes me more hopeful, but also then a little confusing how some guys are reporting getting pregnant within just 1-2 months of these drugs.

I think the guys getting their girls prego within 1-2 months never went down to zero sperm count... Even if they have 1-2 mil, that’s still something so their system isn’t completely shut down having to restart the whole process. They’re still producing...

During Spermatogenisis men can create about 1,500 sperm per second... That’s around 124 million per day assuming the perfect environment is there for them (hormones, vitamins and nutrients in the body, health etc..)

So it’s easy to see that if someone has 2 million sperm to start and they add hormones like HCG/HMG which will put that into overdrive where they can have 20, 30, 100 million sperm in a shorter amount of time... Their process never stopped...

Where as guys in the zero count position, have to start from zero and then within about 64-74 days you’ll start to see where you’re at.. Maybe it’s 5 million, or maybe it’s 100 million.. But remember that you’re starting from zero so it’ll take that extra time to really know for sure..

Let’s say all is going well and you’re in fact in full spermotogenises mode; in 8 weeks, none of those sperm you’ve been producing since that first injection of HCG/HMG are mature enough to leave the body for conception..