(Study) Boldenone-mediated hepatorenal impairment in Rats (2021)

[Soalian]

I think so, yes. Essentially, it's due to AR activation ⇒ ⇑mitochondrial FA β-oxidation [⇑CPT1 mRNA, rate-limiting enzyme in mitochondrial FA oxidation].

Yes, I think that Essentiale Forte is a fine supplement. The data I've seen demonstrates that polyunsaturated phosphatidylcholine in combination with mitochondrial antioxidants (e.g., vitamins B1, B2, B6, etc.) is effective in preventing 17AA-induced hepatotoxicity.

I think that using TUDCA/UDCA (which serves to prevent absorption and saturation of cholesterol, a C-27 3β-hydroxy-Δ₅-steroid, parent to androgen, and may conceivable reduce 17AA anabolism) & NAC (which can reduce hypertrophic signaling) are overkill. I think that dose/duration and compound selection should be controlling, rather than throwing the kitchen sink of various hepatotoprotective agents at a largely nonexistent problem (most 17AAs in popular use are not particularly hepatotoxic at optimal doses and toxicity is rapidly reversible).

Thank you; was asking you, because form a cursory search, the "Essentiale Forte" sounded a bit like a bit of pseudoscience at first, of course it's basically PPC, and the hepatoprotective effects of PPC have been demonstrated by now.

However for somerone wanting to do what can be done to protect, preserve and maybe repair the liver and kidneys, I cannot really make a conclusion on how would PPC form of phosphatidylcholine rank in terms of effectiveness for liver (and maybe kidney) protection comapred to other stuff like, let's say, Mile Thistle extract(Silymarin), Curcumin, NAC,etc,...

Don't wan to end up taking a myriad of stuff for liver/kideny protection, my goal is to select only a few of them, from their established reseach (or as a novel potential effective substance, only recently evoked and/or backed up from selected studies), potency, and effectiveness for their intended use.

 

[Soalian]

Really love your posts @Type-IIx

Kinda goes for everyone but not sure why we cannot talk like adults. Hey what do you think of this or that? Instead of getting hyper defensive and downright rude online. I get it, your all proper gangsters. But maybe we all just chill the fuck out?

I've found most users on here are quite chill and sensible about their opinions, and how they might be wrong in this and that, allowing for healthy debate.

Ofc your experience here might have been different, YMMV

 

[frankwhite]

That is quite a high dose of NAC. If taken orally, it does have poor bioavailability. But that's double what I would consider a reasonable (yet still high) dose. Megadosing it like this may cause low-level hypoxia and pulmonary hypertension. I believe it actually reduces the inflammation & can prevent/treat cholestasis, so it's not just merely masking the increase to liver enzymes but in fact preventing liver damage.

I tend to prefer: to start, a reasonable/moderate oral AAS dose, to minimize reliance on compounds for liver toxicity. For very potent orals like Superdrol & methyltren, UDCA/TUDCA. And for more common orals like Anadrol, Anavar, etc. either nothing (not really necessary at a reasonable dose x duration) or milk thistle/silymarin. The latter can also increase bioavailability of other agents that we use if one looks into this, by acting as a P-gp inhibitor, and has other actions beyond being a very effective agent for liver toxicity.

have you seen this study regarding the UDCA?

Molecular mechanisms of ursodeoxycholic acid toxicity & side effects: ursodeoxycholic acid freezes regeneration & induces hibernation mode - PubMed

Ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA) is a steroid bile acid approved for primary biliary cirrhosis (PBC). UDCA is reported to have "hepato-protective properties". Yet, UDCA has "unanticipated" toxicity, pronounced by more than double number of deaths, and eligibility for liver transplantation compared to...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

what's your take on this one?

 

[Type-IIx]

have you seen this study regarding the UDCA?

Molecular mechanisms of ursodeoxycholic acid toxicity & side effects: ursodeoxycholic acid freezes regeneration & induces hibernation mode - PubMed

Ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA) is a steroid bile acid approved for primary biliary cirrhosis (PBC). UDCA is reported to have "hepato-protective properties". Yet, UDCA has "unanticipated" toxicity, pronounced by more than double number of deaths, and eligibility for liver transplantation compared to...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

what's your take on this one?

Yes I have seen this study and found it compelling.

UDCA's popularity is theoretical, and seems rooted (to my recollection and inferences drawn from informal references by hyperlink) in an early article by an influental poster on the prohormone boards. Basically, a rather smart and popular author with some influence during the Designer Steroid Era (smart guys can still be prone to speculative overreach and theoretical overzeal) surmised that UDCA seemed an optimal hepatoprotective agent because it would seem to promote hydrophobic bile acid detoxification (by increasing the synthesis of hydrophilic bile acids from cholesterol), stimulate impaired bile secretion (by increasing expression of BSEP mRNA, activating BSEP coactivators by binding to the Farnesoid X Receptor, etc.), and protection of hepatocytes from the toxic effects of hydrophobic bile acids (by decreasing Fas-induced apoptosis).

However, UDCA, while perhaps beneficial for those that absolutely must (no such person exists) run Superdrol/Methylstenbolone (I would argue that the hepatotoxicity that these compounds induce is more favorably ameliorated by limiting dose & duration at least), is quite toxic and poorly tolerated (I also believe that it reduces anabolic potency of AAS with adjuvant use & resistance training adaptations by several mechanisms) and really not necessary for sane 17AA dose/duration/compound.

 

[luki7788]

Yes I have seen this study and found it compelling.

UDCA's popularity is theoretical, and seems rooted (to my recollection and inferences drawn from informal references by hyperlink) in an early article by an influental poster on the prohormone boards. Basically, a rather smart and popular author with some influence during the Designer Steroid Era (smart guys can still be prone to speculative overreach and theoretical overzeal) surmised that UDCA seemed an optimal hepatoprotective agent because it would seem to promote hydrophobic bile acid detoxification (by increasing the synthesis of hydrophilic bile acids from cholesterol), stimulate impaired bile secretion (by increasing expression of BSEP mRNA, activating BSEP coactivators by binding to the Farnesoid X Receptor, etc.), and protection of hepatocytes from the toxic effects of hydrophobic bile acids (by decreasing Fas-induced apoptosis).

However, UDCA, while perhaps beneficial for those that absolutely must (no such person exists) run Superdrol/Methylstenbolone (I would argue that the hepatotoxicity that these compounds induce is more favorably ameliorated by limiting dose & duration at least), is quite toxic and poorly tolerated (I also believe that it reduces anabolic potency of AAS with adjuvant use & resistance training adaptations by several mechanisms) and really not necessary for sane 17AA dose/duration/compound.

to be honest, I doubt that UDCA can reduce the effectiveness of a bodybuilder, 2-4 g of anabolics per week

this is the same as the alleged IGF reduction by metformin in a bodybuilder who takes 10iu + gh, 50iu insulin and 3g aas

 

[frankwhite]

There are no timing issues that apply to TUDCA/UDCA in combination with SD and it does not impact on the latter's potency. If anything it can potentiate it by increasing skeletal muscle insulin sensitivity.

Interesting take on this subject, the editors at Steroidal.com state the following regarding this: Care should be taken to not co-administer TUDCA alongside Methandrostenolone due to a plausible ability to increase hepatocyte uptake of Methandrostenlone resulting in enhanced hepatotoxicity.

I've yet to find where they came to this conclusion

 

[Alan1]

Interesting take on this subject, the editors at Steroidal.com state the following regarding this: Care should be taken to not co-administer TUDCA alongside Methandrostenolone due to a plausible ability to increase hepatocyte uptake of Methandrostenlone resulting in enhanced hepatotoxicity.

I've yet to find where they came to this conclusion

This is from a post I made on another board, but the quote was made by Jake of Antaeus Labs (company that came out with the OG Ultradrol/methylstenbolone years back) and states something similar re: TUDCA:

"From Jake: "Take Aegis and Talos along with Mechabol, and with meals. You can take milk thistle and NAC at the same time, if you'd like. Dietary fats, in
large enough quantities, can dramatically improve the gastrointestinal
absorption of lipophilic supplement ingredients.... like mechabol,
resveratrol, CoQ10, silybin (to some degree), and many others.

Liver supports won't decrease & should even increase absorption. (TUDCA
and sodium taurocholate are actually 'oral penetration enhancers' of a
sort -- they can solubilize lipophilic/poorly-bioavailable ingredients & increase the extent and rate of their absorption. And PPC is, pound for
pound, better than dietary fats.)
...That said, there's some alarming data re: milk thistle decreasing androgen receptor function, but I don't think that it's 'clinically relevant', so I see no harm in taking milk thistle..."

 

[TheRoid]

There are no timing issues that apply to TUDCA/UDCA in combination with SD and it does not impact on the latter's potency. If anything it can potentiate it by increasing skeletal muscle insulin sensitivity.

(...)

However, I also believe that it reduces anabolic potency of AAS

I must be missing something here (no sarcasm).

 

[Type-IIx]

(...)

I must be missing something here (no sarcasm).

Good observation. Some time has elapsed between these posts, during which I've had a client that was a literal nonresponder to oral AAS (including high dose, long-term, & HP/LC tested Superdrol) in combination with pharma UDCA. I investigated UDCA and this led me to a hypothesis that it may plausibly contribute to decreased androgen bioavailability (see UDCA's effects on CHOL, a C-27 steroid, 3β-hydroxy-Δ₅-steroid and precursor to endogenous androgen). I don't think that's the sole explanation for this guy, but I think it may contribute (and given the facts it was straightforward to recommend an alternative hepatoprotective agent that also serves to enhance gut absorption and inhibit the major CYP isozymes that metabolize AAS [in the liver]).

 

[Type-IIx]

to be honest, I doubt that UDCA can reduce the effectiveness of a bodybuilder, 2-4 g of anabolics per week

this is the same as the alleged IGF reduction by metformin in a bodybuilder who takes 10iu + gh, 50iu insulin and 3g aas

Sure, up the injectables dose add slin and you're going to grow - not exactly brain surgery.

 

[TheRoid]

Good observation. Some time has elapsed between these posts, during which I've had a client that was a literal nonresponder to oral AAS (including high dose, long-term, & HP/LC tested Superdrol) in combination with pharma UDCA. I investigated UDCA and this led me to a hypothesis that it may plausibly contribute to decreased androgen bioavailability (see UDCA's effects on CHOL, a C-27 steroid, 3β-hydroxy-Δ₅-steroid and precursor to endogenous androgen). I don't think that's the sole explanation for this guy, but I think it may contribute (and given the facts it was straightforward to recommend an alternative hepatoprotective agent that also serves to enhance gut absorption and inhibit the major CYP isozymes that metabolize AAS [in the liver]).

Would this pertain to oral AAS only?
Besides some common sense about dose and duration of administration, what would be your first choise for hepatoprotection when using overly toxic orals in a "not-so-wise" pattern without hindering their potency?

 

[totalrecomp]

As far s animals studies not relating to humans. On a documenary national Geographic

" about touch, they took our closest primates or relatives, group one and two and left group one together and naturaly they touched, hugged, like they normally do, and group two they isolated them, from babies, and it showed they didnt learn as much, became more depressed, and I think it said their brains actually shrunk. I do feel this study is relevant to humans. So many people dont touch bc their afraid they might get in trouble, like at work, just a breif tough, the video shows better ways to do this, a hug to parent, a massage and of course good ole how we were all born. It shows people who stop tpouch for a while becomee desenstaived to it but I truley feel that its neccessary as humans, decreases stress makes feel alive again. Sorry if off topic but this is important I feel.

​

No wonder so many people are a mess after the last two years.

 

[totalrecomp]

Some of the "hrt" products using DHEA were transdermal, which resulted in conversion to different compounds. For example if you applied transdermal DHEA to your scrotum you would get very high conversion to DHT. Go figure. Just keep the form of administration in mind when you are looking at those studies.

Topical certainly worked better for me vs PO.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

No wonder so many people are a mess after the last two years.

After the last two years?

 

[TheRoid]

After the last two years?

Covid, I guess.

 

[totalrecomp]

After the last two years?

Is the Rock market as hot as the housing market these days? lol

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

Is the Rock market as hot as the housing market these days? lol

You may giving people fist bumps? Lol

Real estate on average is up forty percent since pre co vid.

 

[totalrecomp]

You may giving people fist bumps? Lol

Real estate on average is up forty percent since pre co vid.

Don't even get me started on that non-sense. You have to love when shaking hands is a NO NO but elbow bumping is condoned...............the exact same elbow they tell you to cough and sneeze into.............I don't know about God but logic sure is dead.

 

[TheRoid]

Don't even get me started on that non-sense. You have to love when shaking hands is a NO NO but elbow bumping is condoned...............the exact same elbow they tell you to cough and sneeze into.............I don't know about God but logic sure is dead.

..and don't ever forget to wear your mask properly when you're alone in the middle of a dry lake bed with a boundless horizon.