Study - insulins effects on protein synth

[asteelz]

Context: Skeletal muscle protein synthesis is highly responsive to food intake. It has been suggested that the post-prandial increase in circulating insulin modulates the muscle protein synthetic response to feeding. Objective: To investigate whether a greater post-prandial rise in circulating insulin level increases amino acid uptake in muscle and augments post-prandial muscle protein synthesis rates. Participants: and design. 48 healthy young (age 22±1 y; BMI 22.0±0.3 kg·m-2) and older males (age 68±1 y; BMI 26.3±0.4 kg·m-2) ingested 20 g intrinsically L-[1-13C]-leucine and L-[1-13C]-phenylalanine labeled casein protein with or without local insulin infusion. Primed continuous infusions of L-[1-13C]-leucine and L-[ring-2H5]-phenylalanine were applied, with arterial and venous blood samples and muscle biopsies being collected during a 5 h post-prandial period. Results: Insulin administration did not increase overall leg blood flow (P=0.509), but increased amino acid uptake over the leg in both young and older subjects (P=0.003). The greater amino acid uptake over the leg did not further increase post-prandial muscle protein synthesis rates (0.050±0.006 and 0.037±0.004 %·h-1 versus 0.044±0.004 and 0.037±0.002 %·h-1, in the insulin-stimulated versus control condition in the young and older groups, respectively; P=0.804) and did not affect post-prandial deposition of dietary protein-derived amino acids in de novo muscle protein (P=0.872). Conclusion: Greater post-prandial plasma insulin availability stimulates amino acid uptake over the leg but does not further augment post-prandial muscle protein synthesis rates or stimulate the post-prandial deposition of protein derived amino acids into de novo muscle protein in healthy young and older men.


This was posted on jcem a few days ago in the early release. Not a direct bodybuilding application but interesting nonetheless. Goes to support the idea that insulin by itself , without aas and or gh, is not beneficial for muscle growth.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Insulin stimulates recovery and growth through numerous mechanisms...both anabolic and anti-catabolic...both direct and indirect, but this is an interesting study.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Also, regarding the part about insulin not increasing blood-flow. I would suspect this is the case in non-training individuals, but we know that insulin most certainly does augment the pump while training.

 

[Thebigone]

So for optimal muscle mass one would want to use a long acting insulin while bulking with a diet high in protein and carbs with minimal fat.

 

[Mike Arnold]

So for optimal muscle mass one would want to use a long acting insulin while bulking with a diet high in protein and carbs with minimal fat.

Not necessarily, brother. I have done a lot of research into the long-acting insulins like Lantus and Detemir and have considerable real-world experience with them...and while I have and do occasionally employ them in clients, it is very rare. In my opinion, the number of effective (and wise) applications is limited and always involves short-term use.

 

[asteelz]

There are many pathways not taken into consideration, like inhibition of proteolysis Etc. The blood flow finding was indeed interesting, i hope to relocate this study in the future using trained individuals and trained individuals using anabolic hormones.

 

[Thebigone]

Not necessarily, brother. I have done a lot of research into the long-acting insulins like Lantus and Detemir and have considerable real-world experience with them...and while I have and do occasionally employ them in clients, it is very rare. In my opinion, the number of effective (and wise) applications is limited and always involves short-term use.

Would you say fast acting insulin would be better 2-3 times a day with GH versus just once pre-workout?

 

[homonunculus]

The impact of insulin on protein synthesis is likely a function of the increase in blood flow, which is why it was mentioned in the study posted by the OP (1. Groen BBL, Horstman AM, Hamer HM, de Haan M, van Kranenburg J, Bierau J, Poeze M, Wodzig WKWH, Rasmussen BB, and van Loon LJC. Increasing insulin availability does not augment post-prandial muscle protein synthesis rates in healthy young and older men. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism jc.2016-1436, 2016. **broken link removed**)

HEre's a study where (within physiological range), when insulin increased blood flow and amino acids are provide, insulin stimulates protein synthesis:

1. Fujita S, Rasmussen BB, Cadenas JG, Grady JJ, and Volpi E. Effect of insulin on human skeletal muscle protein synthesis is modulated by insulin-induced changes in muscle blood flow and amino acid availability. American journal of physiology Endocrinology and metabolism 291: E745-754, 2006. Effect of insulin on human skeletal muscle protein synthesis is modulated by insulin-induced changes in muscle blood flow and amino acid availability. - PubMed - NCBI
Insulin promotes muscle anabolism, but it is still unclear whether it stimulates muscle protein synthesis in humans. We hypothesized that insulin can increase muscle protein synthesis only if it increases muscle amino acid availability. We measured muscle protein and amino acid metabolism using stable-isotope methodologies in 19 young healthy subjects at baseline and during insulin infusion in one leg at low (LD, 0.05), intermediate (ID, 0.15), or high (HD, 0.30 mUxmin(-1)x100 ml(-1)) doses. Insulin was infused locally to induce muscle hyperinsulinemia within the physiological range while minimizing the systemic effects. Protein and amino acid kinetics across the leg were assessed using stable isotopes and muscle biopsies. The LD did not affect phenylalanine delivery to the muscle (-9 +/- 18% change over baseline), muscle protein synthesis (16 +/- 26%), breakdown, or net balance. The ID increased (P < 0.05) phenylalanine delivery (+63 +/- 38%), muscle protein synthesis (+157 +/- 54%), and net protein balance, with no change in breakdown. The HD did not change phenylalanine delivery (+12 +/- 11%) or muscle protein synthesis (+9 +/- 19%), and reduced muscle protein breakdown (-17 +/- 15%), thus improving net muscle protein balance but to a lesser degree than the ID. Changes in muscle protein synthesis were strongly associated with changes in muscle blood flow and phenylalanine delivery and availability. In conclusion, physiological hyperinsulinemia promotes muscle protein synthesis as long as it concomitantly increases muscle blood flow, amino acid delivery and availability.

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insulin also increase vascular permeability (will help with a pump) and exercise increases blood flow, so using peri-workout insulin the (E)AA's are provided will likely mean protein synthesis (not to mention inhibition of breakdown).

-S

 

[asteelz]

Good follow up , thanks for posting this

 

[homonunculus]

Good follow up , thanks for posting this

Sure! Happy to share.

-S

 

[Amanda Whelan]

if you are using insulin with your HGH, insulin should be used immediately post work, they shuttle nutrients in a very complimentary way with each other, and the combination of HGH and Insulin create the best environment for IGF-1 production from the liver.

 

[Thebigone]

if you are using insulin with your HGH, insulin should be used immediately post work, they shuttle nutrients in a very complimentary way with each other, and the combination of HGH and Insulin create the best environment for IGF-1 production from the liver.

But fast acting slin should be used pre workout with GH from what I've read?

 

[Mike Arnold]

Would you say fast acting insulin would be better 2-3 times a day with GH versus just once pre-workout?

Will you gain more muscle fullness and increase your rate of recovery and growth to a greater degree if you use insulin 2-3X every day compared to pre-workout alone? Yes..for a time, but you will quickly begin to lose sensitivity to the drug's effects, which, as we all know, can cause a lot of problems. In the end, I do NOT think these chronic insulin programs result in a better physique. They may result in a heavier physique, but not a better physique...and they certainly are certainly worse for your health.

As far as GH recommendations, they vary depending on the individual's goals and circumstances.

 

[Mike Arnold]

But fast acting slin should be used pre workout with GH from what I've read?

I prefer regular Novolin R these days. It lasts a bit longer, which in this instance I think is ideal, but it doesn't last so long as to cause any serious issues when limited to pre-workout use.

Oftentimes, during contest prep, I will transition to pre-workout Humalog at some point (assuming insulin is still being used), as it will still help with recovery and muscle maintenance, but without suppressing lipolysis for as long as Novolin R.

 

[MikeS]

Theres nothing wrong with quoting science results, that's great. It certainly adds to the scope of knowledge and learning. Its something we didn't have when the boards came out in the late 90s and we had to think for ourselves without a lot of documented studies. We figured this stuff like this out, somewhat with common sense.

Its just basic endocrine knowledge that your hormones all run on a feedback system, and if you mess with supplementing long acting hormones (like Slin-L) you will shut down your own feedback system, possibly permanently over time. You do this with insulin, and you may become a diabetic Type II.

If you shut down your Test levels, you can maintain with HTR-like therapy. Take a shot once a week. But shut down insulin and you will possibly be shooting insulin (or using a long acting) all day long to shuttle meal nutrients because your body will be unable to. Not to mention all the health issues associated wiith Type II.

Use Log (too strong of me, just my opinion) or R. Pre or post workout, your choice (1x day) for little to no interruption of feedback system and hopefully minimum of sensitivity suppression.

Mike As advice is correct IMO

 

[Mike Arnold]

Sure! Happy to share.

-S

Scott, you pm box is full.

 

[little slice]

im really putting a lot of focus on maintaining insulin sensitivity this gaining phase..



has been the bane of my existence in past phases... due to poor diet (too many carbs) and too much insulin R.



now im taking 1.7g metformin on training days (1 pill 6am, 1 pill before bed) and I use 10iu R pre-workout.


and 2.5g metformin on off days.


so far, im stayin reasonably lean as I grow - much leaner than I have in the past, and my pumps are out of this world.

 

[asteelz]

I've always debated using insulin and metformin in that same manner, reaping the benefits of both. Slice keep me updated on how this goes , and if you continue to respond the same to the low dose of R as time progresses. Very interested in trying this for myself.

 

[epoxy]

im really putting a lot of focus on maintaining insulin sensitivity this gaining phase..



has been the bane of my existence in past phases... due to poor diet (too many carbs) and too much insulin R.



now im taking 1.7g metformin on training days (1 pill 6am, 1 pill before bed) and I use 10iu R pre-workout.


and 2.5g metformin on off days.


so far, im stayin reasonably lean as I grow - much leaner than I have in the past, and my pumps are out of this world.

I want to try slin again as you have after a DNP cycle. I really was not a great responder on my first slin cycle last year. Was during a bulk phase, no metformin or GDA use to help with insulin sensitivity so honestly 10iu over a 6 week period resulted in a lot less than I anticipated. I didn't even find the pumps to be phenomenal the way you describe. Also despite having 75g worth of pre/intra/post HBCD I would still find myself going hypo if I didn't have a big meal within 45m of finishing the shake. Which with a job and a lot of daily responsibilities sometimes was tough. Eating a bag of skittles in the car as to not pass out and die wasn't my all time favorite moment.