Super high protein diets

[DOGGCRAPP]

Easier read for people

The effects of consuming a high protein diet (4.4 g/kg/d) on body composition in resistance-trained individuals | Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition | Full Text

 

[JG_0808]

Good Study

Thanks for posting that.

What I found interesting was in bold below:

This is the first investigation in resistance-trained individuals which demonstrates that a hypercaloric high protein diet does not contribute to a fat mass gain. Furthermore, there was no change in body weight or lean body mass.

Most likely the training style was the biggest contributor to this as it was 'high volume' which could mean anything.

So if you are eating 4.4g/kg of protein and are in a big caloric surplus but aren't gaining any weight or lean mass, what would you do next?

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Thanks for posting that.

What I found interesting was in bold below:

This is the first investigation in resistance-trained individuals which demonstrates that a hypercaloric high protein diet does not contribute to a fat mass gain. Furthermore, there was no change in body weight or lean body mass.

Most likely the training style was the biggest contributor to this as it was 'high volume' which could mean anything.

So if you are eating 4.4g/kg of protein and are in a big caloric surplus but aren't gaining any weight or lean mass, what would you do next?

Yeah that was surprising to me too. I did see the originators of the study suggest that the individuals werent training optimally with

" we would speculate that protein overfeeding alone would likely have no effect on fat mass while promoting gains in lean body mass concurrent with a heavy resistance training regimen geared towards skeletal muscle hypertrophy. "

and

"This is the first investigation in resistance-trained individuals which demonstrates that a hypercaloric high protein diet does not contribute to a fat mass gain. Furthermore, there was no change in body weight or lean body mass. This is in contrast with other overfeeding studies which showed gains in body weight, fat mass and lean body mass; however, those investigations were performed in non exercise-trained individuals that were consuming a lower protein diet (in comparison to our study). It should be noted that the subjects in the current study did not alter their training. It would be intriguing to ascertain if a high protein diet concurrent with a heavy resistance bodybuilding training regimen would affect body composition (i.e. increase lean body mass and lower fat mass)."

and most telling

"Furthermore, a heavy resistance program geared towards skeletal muscle hypertrophy in conjunction with protein overfeeding needs further investigation."

 

[td]

Furthermore, there was no change in body weight or lean body mass.

There's something odd in the reported results. Consider Table 2.

The mean FFM (fat free mass) went up more in the high protein group than the control group. The mean FM (fat mass) went down more in the high protein group while the mean FM increased slightly for the control. That's exactly what bodybuilders desire: more muscle, less adipose tissue. Yet the mean %BF decreased more for the control than the high protein group. This doesn't make much sense. Percent bodyfat should be a measurement of the ration of fat mass to total mass; directly proportional to fat mass, inversely proportional to total mass. I would like to have seen the actual numbers.

Also the standard deviation indicates that the results weren't necessarily uniform.

The data was self-reported as well. Large-scale controlled dietary experiments are feasibly difficult to perform. However, it is widely reported that people inaccurately calculate their nutrition when self-reporting.

This paper certainly is interesting but I don't know that it provides the answer to the question for which we were considering. Now, I intuitively think consuming more dietary protein will lead to increased muscle but I can't prove that.

 

[JG_0808]

The main issue with all these studies is that they either compare extremely low protein intake that anyone who is serious about training just wouldn't consume to a 'high' protein intake.

The real question is that once the minimum protein requirements have been met in a caloric surplus to ensure positive nitrogen balance at all times, does additional dietary protein have any further benefits to carbs?

According to the studies the only benefit is that you can literally eat more without gaining fat or lean mass but to me that isn't a real tangible benefit.

 

[jrock00123]

The main issue with all these studies is that they either compare extremely low protein intake that anyone who is serious about training just wouldn't consume to a 'high' protein intake.



The real question is that once the minimum protein requirements have been met in a caloric surplus to ensure positive nitrogen balance at all times, does additional dietary protein have any further benefits to carbs?



According to the studies the only benefit is that you can literally eat more without gaining fat or lean mass but to me that isn't a real tangible benefit.

I agree with this. All of the ones I've seen speak of 1.5 - 2.0 gm / kg of body weight as being a high protein diet. This equates to less than 1 gm per lb. The terms high and low should be eliminated from bodybuilding. These qualification are so subjective and cause more arguments than necessary.

Also, I'm not aware of any studies using strength athletes on steroids. Who knows what the optimum level is in this case.

At the end of the day this sport relies upon science as we as antidotal evidence. Both are important.

 

[signalguy]

this really isnt an argument that can be proven by anyone in here. It really isnt.

I base my opinions on the least path of resistance

take in too many carbs and what happens (adipose tissue FAST)
take in too many fats and what happens (in the case of good fats....at a rate that is much slower than the above)
take in too much protein and what happens (i depend/count on the thermic effect of (digestion) of food principle in that case which is way way way above fats and carbs)...so in my opinion if you want to up one of these three in hopes of more muscle mass....the nobrainer way to do thats with the building block of muscle mass (protein/amino acids) with the clear cut fact....that by a wide margin the most calories burned thru digestion is also protein so you can take more of it and not as easily gain fat unlike the other two.

With that said....are there going to be any studies lending itself to this? Not really in our genre. But if you are asking me if i think a 108lb bikini competitor generates as much protein turnover as a 275lb extreme LBM bodybuilder heaving around outrageous poundages......and the whole adaption (in theory in which i believe that theory) that has taken place in that bodybuilders journey? NO i dont believe that bikini competitor is even in the same ballpark. People love absolutes...."oh a person can only utilize this".....A person = the average person. I dont classify someone with 75 more lbs of muscle mass on their body, using a method (brutally heavy weights) to increase protein turnover 4-6 times a week and using drugs that greatly greatly enhance this whole process.....as "the average person"

Question. I thought the studies have shown that the conversion of carbs to fat almost never happens in humans unless you are like well over 500 grams a day? I always assumed that was the reason most bodybuilding diets were centered around things like rice/chicken rice/fish oatmeal/egg.

 

[johnnycash]

Dave Palumbo diet

I am a big believer in high protein very low carb diets. Keep the carbs under 50 grams a day. You will be using body fat as fuel. When your body fat drops to a low percentage you will have to up the dietary fats as a means for fuel during your workouts.

 

[signalguy]

I am a big believer in high protein very low carb diets. Keep the carbs under 50 grams a day. You will be using body fat as fuel. When your body fat drops to a low percentage you will have to up the dietary fats as a means for fuel during your workouts.

Can you point to any competition level bodybuilder that eats this way?

 

[nothuman]

I am a big believer in high protein very low carb diets. Keep the carbs under 50 grams a day. You will be using body fat as fuel. When your body fat drops to a low percentage you will have to up the dietary fats as a means for fuel during your workouts.

I agree. No one will want to try it but I bet it works. The science seems to indicate as much.

 

[makeitcount]

Question. I thought the studies have shown that the conversion of carbs to fat almost never happens in humans unless you are like well over 500 grams a day? I always assumed that was the reason most bodybuilding diets were centered around things like rice/chicken rice/fish oatmeal/egg.

DNL or de novo lipogensis, occurs in humans. Theres some delay, one reason why true re-feeds can be very effect during a dieting phase...so say if you're in a deficit with high fats/low carbs, and you do a massive re-feed day with minimal, minimal fats, there's not really going to be any adipose storage. I can't find the study currently but I believe it takes 3 days of carbohydrate overfeeding that results in a higher energy intake than TDEE to result in DNL. Regardless, during a caloric surplus, even if you are very low fat and extremely high carb, adipose storage can occur once that pathway has become "active."

DC you can chime in but you've historically recommended separating carbs and fats. Ive always advocated this as well to those who need an extra boost in regards to watching body comp/helping a leaning out phase so that when the rise in basal insulin occurs from carbohydrates, we have the least amount of lipids running around in the bloodstream as possible, potentially resulting in less storage. And conversely, to those that need help growing/keeping tissue on during a diet, to utilize more mixed meals.

 

[familyman]

This is a great thread. Thank you guys for sharing your information. This is why PM is the best.

 

[JG_0808]

I am a big believer in high protein very low carb diets. Keep the carbs under 50 grams a day. You will be using body fat as fuel. When your body fat drops to a low percentage you will have to up the dietary fats as a means for fuel during your workouts.

Proteins and carbs are required to ensure optimal levels of IGF-1 as well as other hormones.

In reality I think people believe carbs are the biggest contributor to fat gain because they purely eat too much in general and being the highest ingested macro they are an easy culprit.

I have 50% of my diet from carbs and as long as I keep a slight surplus (300 or so calories) I grow stronger and keep low body fat.

I will also add this has come from trial and error, I too once had 50% of my diet from protein and the results were not as good as high carbs for me personally.

 

[jrock00123]

First, very nice thread. I'm glad we're talking about diet instead of drugs for once. With that said, there is a synergy between diet and training. The diet you choose should be optimized for your training.

A high intensity (low volume) routine will have different energy requirements than a high volume split routine. The later will use mostly glucose as fuel whether we like it or not. Same for walking on a treadmill vs a moderate pace jog vs interval sprints.

If you do things that use predominantly glucose as fuel, then you may want to ensure your carb intake is adequate. What is adequate? IDK, but l suspect it's greater than 100gm per day. Otherwise gluconeogenesis will provide the glucose needed. If your diet is very high in protein, this may be enough to prevent catabolism. But to me it just seems inefficient.

So perhaps you can use higher protein and slightly higher caloric intake. Or you could use more carbs and less calories. My guess is the results would be the same. But "more" and "less" are still subjective so you need to find the sweet spot for yourself.

 

[td]

Proteins and carbs are required to ensure optimal levels of IGF-1 as well as other hormones.

Might you link your source for the correlation between IGF-1 and carbohydrate intake?

Dietary fat is required for optimal hormone levels, especially sex hormones. This isn't always necessary for bodybuilders who are manipulating their hormones exogenously. This could explain how bodybuilders can eat high carbohydrate, high protein diets.

But no one has explained how the phospholipid layer of new sarcolema without dietary fat.

Consider the following study:

Coingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment postexercise muscle protein synthesis | Endocrinology and Metabolism

"Coingestion of carbohydrate during recovery does not further stimulate postexercise muscle protein synthesis when ample protein is ingested."

Much of sports nutrition is based upon the research regarding aerobic activity which is highly oxidatitive/glycolytic by nature. However, those aren't necessarily the required energy system for all sporting forms. Especially a strength sport that uses primary the phosphagen system. Now, traditional bodybuilding training utilizes both the phosphagen system and glycolytic cycle.

What doesn't seem to make much sense is eating many carbohydrates which will generally be stored as glycogen and then having to do excessive moderate intensity cardio to utilize that glycogen. Low intensity exercise effectively burns bodyfat, the duration just takes longer. Intuitively, it makes more sense to eat fewer carbohydrates and take the cardio intensity down to try and force the body to mobilize fatty acids from fat cells for oxidation.

 

[ljp]

Chris Aceto recommends a protein intake of 1-1.5g per lbs, I'll trust his advice.

You can see an outline of Troy Alves' prep from **broken link removed**. For his size that's not much protein compared to what some people recommend.

 

[ljp]

Might you link your source for the correlation between IGF-1 and carbohydrate intake?

Dietary fat is required for optimal hormone levels, especially sex hormones. This isn't always necessary for bodybuilders who are manipulating their hormones exogenously. This could explain how bodybuilders can eat high carbohydrate, high protein diets.

But no one has explained how the phospholipid layer of new sarcolema without dietary fat.

No bodybuilder eats a zero fat diet, on a contest prep the fats might be around 30g per day for a month or two but that's still far from zero fat.

 

[JG_0808]

Might you link your source for the correlation between IGF-1 and carbohydrate intake?

Dietary fat is required for optimal hormone levels, especially sex hormones. This isn't always necessary for bodybuilders who are manipulating their hormones exogenously. This could explain how bodybuilders can eat high carbohydrate, high protein diets.

But no one has explained how the phospholipid layer of new sarcolema without dietary fat.

Consider the following study:

Coingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment postexercise muscle protein synthesis | Endocrinology and Metabolism

"Coingestion of carbohydrate during recovery does not further stimulate postexercise muscle protein synthesis when ample protein is ingested."

Much of sports nutrition is based upon the research regarding aerobic activity which is highly oxidatitive/glycolytic by nature. However, those aren't necessarily the required energy system for all sporting forms. Especially a strength sport that uses primary the phosphagen system. Now, traditional bodybuilding training utilizes both the phosphagen system and glycolytic cycle.

What doesn't seem to make much sense is eating many carbohydrates which will generally be stored as glycogen and then having to do excessive moderate intensity cardio to utilize that glycogen. Low intensity exercise effectively burns bodyfat, the duration just takes longer. Intuitively, it makes more sense to eat fewer carbohydrates and take the cardio intensity down to try and force the body to mobilize fatty acids from fat cells for oxidation.

I can't remember the exact study but it is well documented that an absence or lack of insulin down regulates IGF-1 levels and protein synthesis.

The results of the study you posted in regards to post exercise protein synthesis has also been known for some time but good information none the less although it only looks at post exercise specifically.

I have even macros in all my meals these days and have done so for a long time now. This has produced the most consistent and best results for me because I can make small changes as needed which is the REAL KEY to growing or leaning out, not some 'sexy' diet plan that looks good on paper.

 

[gulfcoast]

Prior to Hernon winning the USA he was eating 5 to 6 pounds of chicken breasts per day.

Thought it was Follistaten. lol

 

[DallyRaion]

I was also under the assumption that DNL/De novo lipogenesis was an inefficient process.

Would like to hear more regarding this.

I'm currently 7 weeks out and have been doing great on a high protein/high carb/low fat diet.

Fats on average have been sub 20g primarily coming from high strength fish oil.

Today I'm going zero carbs and pushing fats up higher.

Protein intake will be 420g and fats 60g. I could push fats higher than this and bring down my protein intake but I feel 60g will be sufficient.