T3 half life, differing information everywhere

[FakeName123]

Looks like you’re recovering fine. Are you on GH?

Also no, don’t run 500mcg t4. That’s a bad idea. No idea why on earth you would do that.

As above lol, can't figure how to edit in a reply to you

 

[luki7788]

Yeah I'm using GH 15iu rn for about a month starting a week or so before the first blood tests, prior to that it was 7 iu.

More so just talking out of my ass about the 500mcg and curious what black beard thinks about it tbh, found it and thought it was interesting since you'd expect the patients to have massive hyper symptoms from 500mcg but they don't

Lol man you use 15iu gh a day without t4... man good luck because in a few months you will get hypothyroidism

 

[FakeName123]

Lol man you use 15iu gh a day without t4... man good luck because in a few months you will get hypothyroidism

Even with 15iu you still recommend only 50-100mcg to start? Or would you recommend starting higher

 

[luki7788]

Even with 15iu you still recommend only 50-100mcg to start? Or would you recommend starting higher

Man with all due respect - just use logic

 

[FakeName123]

Man with all due respect - just use logic

How might one go about doing this?

 

[KingOfSushi]

since you'd expect the patients to have massive hyper symptoms from 500mcg but they don't

The body doesn’t just endlessly convert t4 to t3

 

[DiHydro]

Yeah I'm using GH 15iu rn for about a month starting a week or so before the first blood tests, prior to that it was 7 iu.

More so just talking out of my ass about the 500mcg and curious what black beard thinks about it tbh, found it and thought it was interesting since you'd expect the patients to have massive hyper symptoms from 500mcg but they don't

Excess T4 may convert to reverse T3

 

[Stewie]

500mcg may be warranted for an obese 300+ lbs individual without any clinical (co)morbidities, i.e., underlying afib-cardiac disease. Cranking up the dosage of levothyroxine upwards to this mcg range could potentially set the stage for factitious hyperthyroidism or even venous thromboembolism. Something to think about. Use that citation you referenced for your next wipe and flush.

 

[Black Beard]

How might one go about doing this?

The more GH you take, the more T4 gets converted into T3. Your thyroid gland will only pump out a certain amount of T4 per day.


When you take very high GH doses, you will get so much T4 to T3 conversion that your Free T4 levels will drop into hypothyroid levels, possibly contributing to hypothyroidism and side effects ; lethargy, edema, etc.


Optimal Free T4 is important for things like protein synthesis, metabolism, etc. T4 actually has it's own functions independent of T3 contrary to popular belief.


The very best way to know if you need supplementation is to do lab work (FREE T4, FREE T3, TSH). The scientific literature also shows that HGH use can bring on or "unmask" or reveal hypothyroidism in people with baseline sluggish or sub-optimal thyroid function.


@luki7788 has a TON of awesome and invaluable knowledge and experience on this very topic on this board. This forum also has the best search engine i've ever seen. Try deep diving into some of Luki's old posts and you will find all the answers you are looking for.


Like this:

 

[Black Beard]

View attachment 220293View attachment 220294View attachment 220295

Bloods about 2.5 weeks (1/28), then 5 weeks or so (2/13) without any thyroid stuff at all. Thoughts? I'm feeling kinda slow mentally and physically but can't tell if this is just a recovery period or if the "normal range" for thyroid is about as useful as the testosterone one, aka useless.

On the other hand I'm having pump issues that I haven't had in years with my shins and back exploding after trail running only a mile, and I think strength is going up better

Also was wondering @Black Beard what you think of studies like these, in which they gave patients supraphysiological doses of t4 (as in 500mcg or so). Makes me want to give it a proper try for experimentation but also don't wanna lose every ounce of muscle I have and feel like shit for ages with such a long half life for t4 if it doesn't work out. (Use sci-hub.st to access full pdfs)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0893133X97001814

Effects of supraphysiological doses of levothyroxine on sleep in healthy subjects: a prospective polysomnography study - PubMed

Disrupted sleep is prevalent in both mood and thyroid disorders. Given the emerging use of thyroid hormones in the treatment of mood disorders, we investigated the effects of supraphysiological doses of levothyroxine (L-T4) on sleep. In an open-label design, 13 healthy subjects received up to...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Supraphysiological Doses of L-Thyroxine in the Maintenance Treatment of Prophylaxis-Resistant Affective Disorders - Neuropsychopharmacology

This prospective open-label study examined the efficacy of adjunctive supraphysiological doses of L-thyroxine (T4) in the maintenance treatment of prophylaxis-resistant affective disorder. Twenty-one (16 women, 5 men) of 25 patients enrolled consecutively over an 8-year period on the basis of...

www.nature.com

Others can be found searching the phrase 'supraphysiological doses thyroxine' in Google scholar

The 500 mcg T4 daily was used for depression if i remember those studies correctly (or bipolar disorders?). In terms of ergogenic/performance effects, you probably won't see positive things.



Optimal thyroid function means peak muscle strength/endurance and protein synthesis, as well as recovery. However, hyperthyroidism will crush muscle strength and endurance and protein catabolism will far outpace protein synthesis.


Generally, a healthy thyroid will produce around 100ish T4 daily and 5-8 mcg T3 daily DIRECTLY (with an additional 25 mcg or so T3 from T4 to T3 conversion).



This also lines up pretty well with dosages that Luki has mentioned in the past. (150 mcg T4 has about 60-70% oral bioavailability which nets you about 100ish T4 that's actually absorbed)


Your numbers are hypothyroid. Generally, Free T4 under 1 ng/dL and Free T3 under 2 pg/mL are numbers you see in hypothyroid patients. (some people will genetically have lower Free T4, but higher Free T3 to compensate and vice versa) . Lifestyle will also affect T3 levels (fasting, caloric defict, low carbs/keto = Lower Free T3)


True "normal Free T4" is something like 1.2-1.6 ng/dL and Free T3 2-4.2 pg/mL (varies with lifestyle/genetics/diet)

 

[KingOfSushi]

Optimal Free T4 is important for things like protein synthesis, metabolism, etc. T4 actually has it's own functions independent of T3 contrary to popular belief.

Which is why I find it shocking (but also not really) that Dr Dean has recently been recommending t3 monotherapy

 

[FakeName123]

The 500 mcg T4 daily was used for depression if i remember those studies correctly (or bipolar disorders?). In terms of ergogenic/performance effects, you probably won't see positive things.



Optimal thyroid function means peak muscle strength/endurance and protein synthesis, as well as recovery. However, hyperthyroidism will crush muscle strength and endurance and protein catabolism will far outpace protein synthesis.


Generally, a healthy thyroid will produce around 100ish T4 daily and 5-8 mcg T3 daily DIRECTLY (with an additional 25 mcg or so T3 from T4 to T3 conversion).



This also lines up pretty well with dosages that Luki has mentioned in the past. (150 mcg T4 has about 60-70% oral bioavailability which nets you about 100ish T4 that's actually absorbed)


Your numbers are hypothyroid. Generally, Free T4 under 1 ng/dL and Free T3 under 2 pg/mL are numbers you see in hypothyroid patients. (some people will genetically have lower Free T4, but higher Free T3 to compensate and vice versa) . Lifestyle will also affect T3 levels (fasting, caloric defict, low carbs/keto = Lower Free T3)


True "normal Free T4" is something like 1.2-1.6 ng/dL and Free T3 2-4.2 pg/mL (varies with lifestyle/genetics/diet)

Wait my most recent labs were free t4 1.25 and free t3 3.0 though, I think you were looking at previous results on the images (most recent result is the number on the left)?

 

[FakeName123]

Wait my most recent labs were free t4 1.25 and free t3 3.0 though, I think you were looking at previous results on the images (most recent result is the number on the left)?

Not letting me edit

I've tried dosages of 100mcg t4 and 25mcg t3 (all at once in the morning) and it made me so flat and weak after only a week that I felt like I was going to pass out after 4 sets of deadlifts only and I had to lie down on the floor of my (home) gym for like 20 mins before finishing the workout. I didn't get bloods at this time though I just wanted to stop taking it immediately.

I find it difficult to pick a dose because my body feels best with low or 0 thyroid meds, but then I feel as if my brain functioning suffers. Vice versa with higher doses, brain works faster and memory is vastly improved but my body becomes flat with dramatically decreased endurance and strength

 

[Black Beard]

Not letting me edit

I've tried dosages of 100mcg t4 and 25mcg t3 (all at once in the morning) and it made me so flat and weak after only a week that I felt like I was going to pass out after 4 sets of deadlifts only and I had to lie down on the floor of my (home) gym for like 20 mins before finishing the workout. I didn't get bloods at this time though I just wanted to stop taking it immediately.

I find it difficult to pick a dose because my body feels best with low or 0 thyroid meds, but then I feel as if my brain functioning suffers. Vice versa with higher doses, brain works faster and memory is vastly improved but my body becomes flat with dramatically decreased endurance and strength

Some people don't need any T3 and feel best with T4 only, Everyone has a different optimal.

 

[Black Beard]

Not letting me edit

I've tried dosages of 100mcg t4 and 25mcg t3 (all at once in the morning) and it made me so flat and weak after only a week that I felt like I was going to pass out after 4 sets of deadlifts only and I had to lie down on the floor of my (home) gym for like 20 mins before finishing the workout. I didn't get bloods at this time though I just wanted to stop taking it immediately.

I find it difficult to pick a dose because my body feels best with low or 0 thyroid meds, but then I feel as if my brain functioning suffers. Vice versa with higher doses, brain works faster and memory is vastly improved but my body becomes flat with dramatically decreased endurance and strength

So you probably need to figure out your sweet spot. You may only need T4 ONLY as many do best on.


25 mcg T3 is A LOT for many people. It's a full replacement dose for T3 and your body is already converting some of the T4 you were taking into additional T3 (especially if you run HGH which increases conversion)


Even 5 mcg T3 is potent enough to feel for many patients and people. A healthy thyroid generally makes 5-10 T3 DIRECTLY daily, so it can make a big difference in some cases.


IFBB pro @Beef_Stu_97 runs 100 mcg T4 ONLY in offseason and 200 mcg during PREP per his AMA thread. He also runs 10 IU GH daily split twice daily to give you some idea.


I believe @luki7788 generally does something like 100-150 T4 and 0-25 mcg T3 depending on blood work and results for himself and his guys.


@johnjuanb1 once said over 100-120 mcg T4, he would feel flat and off but he got great results on that dosage, no T3.

 

[FakeName123]

So you probably need to figure out your sweet spot. You may only need T4 ONLY as many do best on.


25 mcg T3 is A LOT for many people. It's a full replacement dose for T3 and your body is already converting some of the T4 you were taking into additional T3 (especially if you run HGH which increases conversion)


Even 5 mcg T3 is potent enough to feel for many patients and people. A healthy thyroid generally makes 5-10 T3 DIRECTLY daily, so it can make a big difference in some cases.


IFBB pro @Beef_Stu_97 runs 100 mcg T4 ONLY in offseason and 200 mcg during PREP per his AMA thread. He also runs 10 IU GH daily split twice daily to give you some idea.


I believe @luki7788 generally does something like 100-150 T4 and 0-25 mcg T3 depending on blood work and results for himself and his guys.


@johnjuanb1 once said over 100-120 mcg T4, he would feel flat and off but he got great results on that dosage, no T3.

I think i might have found why I'm tired lmao. Any recommendations? Was just gonna start taking 325mg iron multiple times a day

 

[Black Beard]

I think i might have found why I'm tired lmao. Any recommendations? Was just gonna start taking 325mg iron multiple times a day View attachment 223158View attachment 223157View attachment 223156

Do you donate blood. Iron bisglycinate is better than ferrous sulfate (The stuff that comes in +300 mg and is usually prescribed/OTC). Ferrous sulfate can tear up your stomach.

 

[FakeName123]

Do you donate blood. Iron bisglycinate is better than ferrous sulfate (The stuff that comes in +300 mg and is usually prescribed/OTC). Ferrous sulfate can tear up your stomach.

Only once, 9 months ago or so, in the past few years because I had to get pre employment labs and didn't want it to show steroid user values, lol.

Thanks ill get some of that. Just got back from cvs and got the typical ferrous sulfate, they didn't have bisglycinate and didn't want to wait to start taking it even though its going to take a long time to correct (lol)

My knowledge regarding iron deficiency with a normal hemoglobin is pretty lacking, you think this could be causing significant fatigue? Even though the iron and ferritin is """normal""" i think the somewhat massive TIBC response might be quite telling that these iron and ferritin levels are not even close to normal for me. But again I'm unsure of what kind of symptoms and their respective magnitude that might cause

 

[FakeName123]

Only once, 9 months ago or so, in the past few years because I had to get pre employment labs and didn't want it to show steroid user values, lol.

Thanks ill get some of that. Just got back from cvs and got the typical ferrous sulfate, they didn't have bisglycinate and didn't want to wait to start taking it even though its going to take a long time to correct (lol)

My knowledge regarding iron deficiency with a normal hemoglobin is pretty lacking, you think this could be causing significant fatigue? Even though the iron and ferritin is """normal""" i think the somewhat massive TIBC response might be quite telling that these iron and ferritin levels are not even close to normal for me. But again I'm unsure of what kind of symptoms and their respective magnitude that might cause

Also I imagine being on gear especially anadrol lately is going to distort the hemoglobin and rbc to be higher than it would normally...mcv is only 81 as well that's basically microcytic

 

[Stewie]

Not all ID (iron deficiency) with or without anemia (low red blood cells) are equally the same.

At a glance, with your normal iron and ferritin levels in the presence of a low saturation % -MCH (hypochromic anemia) and an elevated UIBC is suggestive of functional iron deficiency. In contrast, with absolute iron deficiency, serum iron and ferritin are low. This is the more common type of ID. Given your neutrophil-lymphocyte ratio is elevated alongside with an elevated platelet count resulting in reactive thrombocytosis is very suggestive of some sort of inflammatory process going on somewhere.

If your treating clinican pulled this. Ask to tease out functional rather than absolute.